JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[carmel]

Quote

charles what a piece of crap are you telling here do you know at the least what is to give glory to God

TERRARICCA,

FOR GOD'S SAKE:

THERE'S NO GOD FOR HUMANS WITHOUT

JESUS CHRIST.

THE FACT THAT WE SAY

THE OUR FATHER IT'S ONLY BECAUSE WE BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, AND THROUGH JESUS CHRIST BELIEFE WE WOULD GLORIFY THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER ACCEPTS US.

SO NO JESUS CHRIST NO GOD ALMIGHTY

NO ONE GET TO THE FATHER IF NOT THROUGH JESUS CHRIST

AND THAT GENERALLY SPEAKING.

SO OUR TRUE GOD SINCE WE ARE HUMANS IS

JESUS CHRIST,

HE IS OUR FATHER ,

OUR BROTHER,

AND OUR GOD.

SO

PEACE AND LOVE IN MY LORD AND MY GOD JESUS CHRIST

CHARLES

[terraricca]

Quote (carmel @ Aug. 09 2012,14:58)

Quote charles what a piece of crap are you telling here do you know at the least what is to give glory to God   TERRARICCA, FOR GOD'S SAKE: THERE'S NO GOD FOR HUMANS WITHOUT JESUS CHRIST. THE FACT THAT WE SAY THE OUR FATHER IT'S ONLY BECAUSE WE BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, AND THROUGH JESUS CHRIST BELIEFE WE WOULD GLORIFY THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER ACCEPTS US. SO NO JESUS CHRIST NO GOD ALMIGHTY NO ONE GET TO THE FATHER IF NOT THROUGH JESUS CHRIST AND THAT GENERALLY SPEAKING. SO OUR TRUE GOD SINCE WE ARE HUMANS IS JESUS CHRIST, HE IS OUR FATHER , OUR BROTHER, AND OUR GOD. SO PEACE AND LOVE IN MY LORD AND MY GOD JESUS CHRIST CHARLES

Charles

I have to disagree with you because it is not true what you are saying ; here is truth;

1CO 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

GAL 1:4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
Phil 4:20 Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
1TH 1:3 constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,
1TH 2:2 but after we had already suffered and been mistreated in Philippi, as you know, we had the boldness in our God to speak to you the gospel of God amid much opposition.
1TH 3:9 For what thanks can we render to God for you in return for all the joy with which we rejoice before our God on your account,
1TH 3:11 Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you;
1TH 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

2TH 1:11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,
2TH 1:12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

HEB 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.

JAS 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

2PE 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
JUDE 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
REV 4:11 “ Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”

REV 5:10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

REV 7:3 saying, “ Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”

REV 7:10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
“ Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
REV 7:12 saying,
“ Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

understand that Christ himself his only the son of God and will subdue himself at the end when all his father will has been accomplished and we will receive live from God himself for the faith we had in his son ,and stayed free of sinning more,I still have more scriptures if you think it not enough

[terraricca]

Charles

Quote

THE OUR FATHER IT'S ONLY BECAUSE WE BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, AND THROUGH JESUS CHRIST BELIEFE WE WOULD GLORIFY THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER ACCEPTS US.

how do we glorify God and also Christ ? the above words are not clear to me ,

[terraricca]

Charles

in the O.T
DT 1:6 “The LORD our God spoke to us at Horeb, saying, ‘You have stayed long enough at this mountain.
DT 1:19 “Then we set out from Horeb, and went through all that great and terrible wilderness which you saw on the way to the hill country of the Amorites, just as the LORD our God had commanded us; and we came to Kadesh-barnea.
DT 1:20 “I said to you, ‘You have come to the hill country of the Amorites which the LORD our God is about to give us.
DT 1:25 “Then they took some of the fruit of the land in their hands and brought it down to us; and they brought us back a report and said, ‘It is a good land which the LORD our God is about to give us.’
DT 1:41 “ Then you said to me, ‘We have sinned against the LORD; we will indeed go up and fight, just as the LORD our God commanded us.’ And every man of you girded on his weapons of war, and regarded it as easy to go up into the hill country.
DT 2:29 just as the sons of Esau who live in Seir and the Moabites who live in Ar did for me, until I cross over the Jordan into the land which the LORD our God is giving to us.’
DT 2:33 “ The LORD our God delivered him over to us, and we defeated him with his sons and all his people.

this is were God communicate with his people

[terraricca]

charles

Quote

SO OUR TRUE GOD SINCE WE ARE HUMANS IS JESUS CHRIST, HE IS OUR FATHER , OUR BROTHER, AND OUR GOD. SO PEACE AND LOVE IN MY LORD AND MY GOD JESUS CHRIST CHARLES

you are confused,Jesus Christ his not his father ,and will never be ,CHRIST HIS THE MEAN THAT GOD AS MADE FOR US TO BRING US BACK TO HIM, JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD IS HIMSELF A CREATION AND THEREFORE CANNOT BE WORSHIPED ,ONLY GOD ALMIGHTY CAN RECEIVE TRUE WORSHIP BECAUSE HE HIS THE ORIGINATOR OF ALL THINGS PAST ,PRESENT AND FUTURE ,AND IT IS NOT BECAUSE WE ARE MEN THAT HE DOES NO LONGER TALK TO US IT IS BECAUSE OUR SINFUL NATURE ,AND THIS IS THE REASON WHY HE SEND HIS SON TO WASH THIS OFF OUR SOUL SO WE COULD ONCE AGAIN FACE OUR CREATOR ,

[mikeboll64]

Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 08 2012,00:41)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2012,08:24)  And I find no scripture that says we too will become Gods. Mike, We will become God's family but not we will become Gods!

Right. But apparently the Trinitarians don't think about the fact that some of us will become SONS to God, and BROTHERS to Jesus.

Surely that, in and of itself, shows that Jesus is not God. I guess they think they will become BROTHERS to God Almighty.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Devolution @ Aug. 08 2012,07:05)

In Greek, the word for God was abbreviated, like this: ΘC But the word “who” (which the NIV called “he”) was written like this: OC   The difference between “God” and “who” in Greek was a little line. The amazing thing is, by the Alexandrians removing a line from one letter, they took away the deity of Christ!

Devo,

If you're actually interested in learning the truth of this matter, you can read footnote #3 on the NET translation here.

It tells how the Alexandrian isn't the only ancient text that has “hos” instead of “theos”, which renders the claim your author made null and void.

Or, you can read this from Barnes:
Probably there is no passage in the New Testament which has excited so much discussion among critics as this, and none in reference to which it is so difficult to determine the true reading. It is the only one, it is believed, in which the microscope has been employed to determine the lines of the letters used in a manuscript…..  

To ascertain which of these is the true reading, has been the great question; and it is with reference to this that the microscope has been resorted to in the examination of the Alexandrian manuscript. It is now generally admitted that the faint line “over” the word has been added by some later hand………..

Devo, the proof is in the pudding, as they say.  Do you not realize how many TRINITARIAN translations exist today?  (Pretty much all of the recent English Bibles, except for the NWT, were translated by admitted Trinitarians.)  Could you tell me why these more recent Trinitarian translators, who go out of their way to give the scriptures a Trinitarian slant on each and every verse they can, do NOT have “God” in 1 Tim 3:16?

Think about that while you're reading the info I linked you to………. the info from 25 TRINITARIAN scholars that lists the overwhelming amount of internal and external evidence against the “God” translation of 1 Tim 3:16.

There is a reason the Trinitarians no longer use the “God” translation that they would dearly love to use, Devo.  What do you suppose that reason is?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Devolution @ Aug. 08 2012,07:05)

The New World Translation was produced by the New World Bible Translation Committee, formed in 1947……………………..

This discussion isn't about the NWT, Devo. BUT, there is a thread Kangaroo Jack started here called “Blatant Corruption in the NWT”.

I have an ongoing challenge on that thread for anyone to show a verse in the NWT that is “blatantly corrupted” by the translators. Perhaps I'll be seeing you there?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2012,13:26)

Mike, I do not think you are understanding me. When a person states “you are my lord” they are making a declaration. When they state “my lord” they are calling them by the title “my lord”.

I was understanding you, it's just that it now seems we have different understandings of “making a declaration”. Perhaps yours is officially right, but I think that calling you “my friend and peer” is “DECLARING” you to be my friend and peer.

Anyway, now that I know what you're saying, how does the absence of “thou art” in 20:28 mean Thomas was NOT calling Jesus “my Lord and my God”? (Happy jammin? I capped them just for you.)

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Yahshua is Called “God”

Jn 20:28 Thomas answered and said unto him, My Master and my God.

The English word “God,” is derived in the OT from the Hebrew “elohim,” and in the NT from the Greek “theos.”

#430  ‘elohiym; KJV – God 2346, god 244, judge 5, GOD 1, goddess 2, great 2, mighty 2, angels 1, exceeding 1, godly 1; total 2606; Definition: rulers, judges, divine ones, angels, gods or god, the (true) God.
#2316 theos; KJV – God 1320, god 13, godly 3, God-ward + 4214 2, misc 5; total 1343; Definition: a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities, spoken of the only and true God, refers to the things of God, of magistrates and judges.

As you can see by the definitions above the words “elohim” or “theos” do not solely apply only to the Father and the Son but can be given to angels, judges, rulers or any great or mighty person. Satan is termed god in 2Co 4:4, and the belly in Phil 3:19 as is Herod in Act 12:22. In Jn 10:34 Yahshua uses Ps.82:6 to counter the Jews charge, “That thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Yahshua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?  If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken” (Jn 10:33-35). Elohim merely means a great or mighty one (see also Ex 22:9 & 28) and can certainly be applied to Yahshua, but the error takes place when Yahshua is classified as the one true “God,” the Almighty. Two verses clearly prove beyond a doubt that the Son is not the One True Almighty God, one spoken by Yahshua, the other by Paul.

Jn.17:3; “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (Yahweh the Father vs. 1) the only true God, and Yahshua Messiah, whom thou hast sent.”
1Cor.8: 4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Master Yahshua Messiah, by whom are all things, and we by him.
SOURCE

Did Thomas Call Yahshua “God”?

…

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Thomas 'Sees' God
by Phil Maxwell 11/25/02

To the question, would I say to Yahshua, as Thomas said, “my Lord and my God?”, I must answer no, at least not without further qualification, which I'll explain.

When Thomas said this, no one would have even imagined that Yahshua was Himself the invisible, Almighty God, who He declared over and over again was His Father.  He even said that His Father was the ONLY true God (Jn 17:3), eliminating from all consideration what has SINCE become a virtual assumption on the part of most Christians.  In other words, there was no reason for Thomas, Yahshua, or John to qualify the meaning of Thomas’ words to NOT mean that Yahshua was God Himself.  People don’t qualify their words without a reason to believe they might be misunderstood. To read theological assumptions into words that didn’t and wouldn’t have been thought at the time is fallacious.  To then argue that those words prove the same theological assumptions is circular reasoning.

The strictly monotheistic Jews of that culture would never have thought the invisible God of Creation was a man, or that a man was the God of Creation.  That Yahshua was a man was assumed, and that necessarily excluded any thought that He was God in the minds of those involved in the conversation recorded in John 20.  There was a lot of confusion over His true identity and relationship with the Father, but not over whether or not He was God (that came quite a while later):

   Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He began asking His disciples, saying, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Simon Peter answered and said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.” Mt 16:14-17

Of course, these are different times. Now, when people are asked the same question, the answer comes back like, ‘God the Son, the God-man, the second person of the triune God, etc.’  (Of course, I still answer, that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and figure that if this knowledge is a blessing from the Father in heaven that the Church would be built upon and stand against the gates of hell, then it’s good enough for both the Father and His Son, whether it’s a good enough answer for men or not.)   The general population is still completely confused over who (and now, what) Yahshua is, but in different ways.  This provides a reason to qualify Thomas’ words that didn’t exist 2,000 years ago, just as the deity of Christ and trinity doctrines didn’t exist then.  Now, my testimony, in contrast to Thomas’, would be more aptly stated ‘My Lord and my God who is in you.’

Knowing that people have a problem with this, let me explain why it is appropriate to address God IN Christ while distinguishing between the two.  It follows a pattern long before established regarding the places where Yahweh had chosen to place His name.

First, consider Yahweh’s instruction to Moses:

   Then Yahweh said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven. 'You shall not make other gods besides Me; gods of silver or gods of gold, you shall not make for yourselves. 'You shall make an altar of earth for Me, and you shall sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be remembered, I will come to you and bless you. (Ex 20:22-24)

[Obviously, they were to worship at the places that Yahweh chose, and in doing so, they were promised His blessing.]

Then, there was similar commandments and promises given to the next generation:

   When you cross the Jordan and live in the land which Yahweh your God is giving you to inherit, and He gives you rest from all your enemies around you so that you live in security, then it shall come about that the place in which Yahweh your God shall choose for His name to dwell, there you shall bring all that I command you: your burnt offerings and your sacrifices, your tithes and the contribution of your hand, and all your choice votive offerings which you will vow to Yahweh. And you shall rejoice before Yahweh your God, you and your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, and the Levite who is within your gates, since he has no portion or inheritance with you. Be careful that you do not offer your burnt offerings in every cultic place you see, but in the place which Yahweh chooses in one of your tribes, there you shall offer your burnt offerings, and there you shall do all that I command you. (Dt 12:10-14)

[Obviously, the invisible God Almighty has always made a point of the fact that He reserves the right to establish the place He is to be worshipped.]

Then we see the same pattern with regard to Solomon’s temple:

   'Since the day that I brought My people from the land of Egypt, I did not choose a city out of all the tribes of Israel in which to build a house that My name might be there, nor did I choose any man for a leader over My people Israel; but I have chosen Jerusalem that My name might be there, and I have chosen David to be over My people Israel.' (2 Ch 6:5-6)

   For now I have chosen and consecrated this house that My name may be there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually. (2 Ch 7:16)

[Of course, now we know that Yahshua Himself has been made the King over Yahweh’s people and Chief Cornerstone of Yahweh’s house of living stones.]

   “Yet have regard to the prayer of Thy servant and to his supplication, O Yahweh my God, to listen to the cry and to the prayer which Thy servant prays before Thee today; that Thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, toward the place of which Thou hast said, 'My name shall be there,' to listen to the prayer which Thy servant shall pray toward this place. …And the LORD said to him, “I have heard your prayer and your supplication, which you have made before Me; I have consecrated this house which you have built by putting My name there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually. (1 Ki 8:28-29, 9:3)

   Now when Daniel knew that the document was signed, he entered his house (now in his roof chamber he had windows open toward Jerusalem); and he continued kneeling on his knees three times a day, praying and giving thanks before his God, as he had been doing previously. (Da 6:10)

[Daniel was thrown into the lion’s den and miraculously delivered for this.]

This clear pattern continued with Yahshua, being testified plainly by His resurrection that He was the “place” Yahweh had chosen to place His name, where His eyes and His Heart would be perpetually.  Just as promised regarding these other places, Yahweh will here prayers and supplications directed TO Him towards Yahshua, and bless those who so direct their worship of Him.

   Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews therefore said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” But He was speaking of the temple of His body. When therefore He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture, and the word which Jesus had spoken. (Jn 2:19-22)

So, getting back to the point, I have no problem turning to Yahshua, my Lord, to offer my prayers and supplications offered to His Father and my Father, His God and my God, just like Thomas did, once he came to believe that Yahshua was, in fact, the temple Yahweh had chosen to dwell in. But I won’t say,
“my Lord and my God” without qualifying the difference between the temple and He who dwells within amongst people I know would assume there is no difference.   The Jews of two millennia ago didn't need to be told that God is not, never has been, and never will be a man, as the people of this generation do.   Neither did they have any confusion over the difference between Yahweh and His temple, though they did struggle to grasp the revelation that the man Yahshua was both the one Yahweh had appointed King over His people and the Chief Cornerstone of His temple.

How we can expect to be joined to the temple as Yahweh intends while refusing to acknowledge the difference between His temple and His person.  The natural conclusion of this error would be to assume ourselves, as living stones in Yahweh's temple, also to be God.  Such a mindset clearly represents the heart, mind, and ambitions of Satan and his children, not the children of the one true God.  In the end, Yahweh will bring upon the head of those who serve the devil exactly what they try to force upon His own children.  Obviously, the blessing of being the temple of the living God was never intended to rest solely upon the man Yahshua:

   'Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie– behold, I will make them to come and bow down at your feet, and to know that I have loved you. …'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. (Rev 3:9,12)
[ARCHIVED] SOURCE

Did Thomas Call Yahshua “God”?

…

[limjunus]

Quote (Devolution @ Aug. 09 2012,00:21)

© 2001 by David W. Daniels Question: Isn't it true that the King James Bible was translated by only half a dozen manuscripts, and that none of them was earlier than the 10th century (900s) AD? Answer: This is true, but it misses an important point. It is true that the manuscripts used were copies of copies of copies written over many centuries. These “new” Greek manuscripts match up with over 5,700 others, some just as old as those from Alexandria, Egypt. Over 99% of the manuscripts we have found, ancient and modern, show an amazing agreement with each other. This is a testimony to God's preservation of His words! Contrast this to the Alexandrian writings, used by the Roman Catholic institution and almost all “modern scholars.” The only 45 manuscripts called “Alexandrian,” many copied in the same school, not only do not agree with the vast majority, but they do not match up with each other! But God's preserved words, descended from the apostles and sent from Antioch (Acts 11:26), were so important to the true Christians that they continued to be accurately copied century after century! How important could the Alexandrian writings be, if these “scholars” could not even get together one clear Bible? God preserved His words. The King James Bible is the accurate and complete translation of them, from Greek in Antioch of Syria into the English language. =============================================== © 2001 by David W. Daniels Question: What was the method the King James translators used to translate the Bible? Answer: King James had no part whatsoever in the translation of the Bible that now bears his name. But there were 47-54 scholars, however, whom God used to bring us His preserved words in English. Translating the Authorized Version 54 scholars were appointed in 1604, and a few overseers were also present, who went from group to group. In time through death the number of translators diminished to 47. They were given three locations to work: Oxford, Cambridge and Westminster. And two groups worked at each location, making a total of six groups. The Bible was also divided up into six sections. Each group took one section, working on one book at a time. First, each translator made his own translation of the book, which was reviewed by each other member of the group. Then the whole group reviewed the book. When they all agreed on the translation, they sent it to the other five groups for evaluation. Those groups then returned it to the original committee, marking anything they disagreed with. The original group would then go over the book again. When all six committees finished with the book, it was sent, with any differences that were left, to a special committee made up of one leader from each of the six groups. They solved any remaining problems, and the book was sent to the printers. But they did not work in secret, as did the “Revisers” in 1871 – 1881. At any time, the translators could ask an outside scholar for his understanding, and anyone could find out about the progress. The churches were kept informed at all times1. In all, every single verse of the Bible was carefully examined and decided upon a total of fourteen times, by as many as 50 or more people! This made it impossible for any one translator to impose his personal viewpoint on a passage. He had to have logical reasons for a translation that were good enough to persuade every other scholar before it could be written into the text. There was no “private interpretation” here! (2 Peter 1:20-21) Footnotes 1 Even liberal author Hannah O’Brien Chaplin Conant admitted this kind of “open” process was unlike any translation before and contributed to its genius. See The English Bible: History of the Translation of the Holy Scriptures into English (London: Trübner & Co., 1856), pp. 433 (note Translator’s Rules #11 & #12), 437-39. Available at http://www.books.google.com. ===============================================

Nice procedures of translation from original manuscript of the holy scriptures to English (KJV 1604 A.D.)

What is the belief of all the translators regarding Jesus Christ. Truly God?

Do not forget that only in the Council of Nicea 325 A.D. that Jesus Christ, the begotten Son of God, is “truly God” and has been approved as an official dogma.

Who will counter among the translator if the majority of the translators have agreed to translate the words “as God, with relation to Jesus Christ scriptural passages?

All the translators “must be independent” and should not be influenced with their present beliefs during the moment of their translating the very important documents. Who know's?

Peace.

[limjunus]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 09 2012,13:06)

Thomas 'Sees' God by Phil Maxwell 11/25/02 To the question, would I say to Yahshua, as Thomas said, “my Lord and my God?”, I must answer no, at least not without further qualification, which I'll explain. When Thomas said this, no one would have even imagined that Yahshua was Himself the invisible, Almighty God, who He declared over and over again was His Father.  He even said that His Father was the ONLY true God (Jn 17:3), eliminating from all consideration what has SINCE become a virtual assumption on the part of most Christians.  In other words, there was no reason for Thomas, Yahshua, or John to qualify the meaning of Thomas’ words to NOT mean that Yahshua was God Himself.  People don’t qualify their words without a reason to believe they might be misunderstood. To read theological assumptions into words that didn’t and wouldn’t have been thought at the time is fallacious.  To then argue that those words prove the same theological assumptions is circular reasoning. The strictly monotheistic Jews of that culture would never have thought the invisible God of Creation was a man, or that a man was the God of Creation.  That Yahshua was a man was assumed, and that necessarily excluded any thought that He was God in the minds of those involved in the conversation recorded in John 20.  There was a lot of confusion over His true identity and relationship with the Father, but not over whether or not He was God (that came quite a while later):    Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He began asking His disciples, saying, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Simon Peter answered and said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.” Mt 16:14-17 Of course, these are different times. Now, when people are asked the same question, the answer comes back like, ‘God the Son, the God-man, the second person of the triune God, etc.’  (Of course, I still answer, that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and figure that if this knowledge is a blessing from the Father in heaven that the Church would be built upon and stand against the gates of hell, then it’s good enough for both the Father and His Son, whether it’s a good enough answer for men or not.)   The general population is still completely confused over who (and now, what) Yahshua is, but in different ways.  This provides a reason to qualify Thomas’ words that didn’t exist 2,000 years ago, just as the deity of Christ and trinity doctrines didn’t exist then.  Now, my testimony, in contrast to Thomas’, would be more aptly stated ‘My Lord and my God who is in you.’ Knowing that people have a problem with this, let me explain why it is appropriate to address God IN Christ while distinguishing between the two.  It follows a pattern long before established regarding the places where Yahweh had chosen to place His name. First, consider Yahweh’s instruction to Moses:    Then Yahweh said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven. 'You shall not make other gods besides Me; gods of silver or gods of gold, you shall not make for yourselves. 'You shall make an altar of earth for Me, and you shall sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be remembered, I will come to you and bless you. (Ex 20:22-24) [Obviously, they were to worship at the places that Yahweh chose, and in doing so, they were promised His blessing.] Then, there was similar commandments and promises given to the next generation:    When you cross the Jordan and live in the land which Yahweh your God is giving you to inherit, and He gives you rest from all your enemies around you so that you live in security, then it shall come about that the place in which Yahweh your God shall choose for His name to dwell, there you shall bring all that I command you: your burnt offerings and your sacrifices, your tithes and the contribution of your hand, and all your choice votive offerings which you will vow to Yahweh. And you shall rejoice before Yahweh your God, you and your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, and the Levite who is within your gates, since he has no portion or inheritance with you. Be careful that you do not offer your burnt offerings in every cultic place you see, but in the place which Yahweh chooses in one of your tribes, there you shall offer your burnt offerings, and there you shall do all that I command you. (Dt 12:10-14) [Obviously, the invisible God Almighty has always made a point of the fact that He reserves the right to establish the place He is to be worshipped.] Then we see the same pattern with regard to Solomon’s temple:    'Since the day that I brought My people from the land of Egypt, I did not choose a city out of all the tribes of Israel in which to build a house that My name might be there, nor did I choose any man for a leader over My people Israel; but I have chosen Jerusalem that My name might be there, and I have chosen David to be over My people Israel.' (2 Ch 6:5-6)    For now I have chosen and consecrated this house that My name may be there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually. (2 Ch 7:16) [Of course, now we know that Yahshua Himself has been made the King over Yahweh’s people and Chief Cornerstone of Yahweh’s house of living stones.]    “Yet have regard to the prayer of Thy servant and to his supplication, O Yahweh my God, to listen to the cry and to the prayer which Thy servant prays before Thee today; that Thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, toward the place of which Thou hast said, 'My name shall be there,' to listen to the prayer which Thy servant shall pray toward this place. …And the LORD said to him, “I have heard your prayer and your supplication, which you have made before Me; I have consecrated this house which you have built by putting My name there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually. (1 Ki 8:28-29, 9:3)    Now when Daniel knew that the document was signed, he entered his house (now in his roof chamber he had windows open toward Jerusalem); and he continued kneeling on his knees three times a day, praying and giving thanks before his God, as he had been doing previously. (Da 6:10) [Daniel was thrown into the lion’s den and miraculously delivered for this.] This clear pattern continued with Yahshua, being testified plainly by His resurrection that He was the “place” Yahweh had chosen to place His name, where His eyes and His Heart would be perpetually.  Just as promised regarding these other places, Yahweh will here prayers and supplications directed TO Him towards Yahshua, and bless those who so direct their worship of Him.    Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews therefore said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” But He was speaking of the temple of His body. When therefore He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture, and the word which Jesus had spoken. (Jn 2:19-22) So, getting back to the point, I have no problem turning to Yahshua, my Lord , to offer my prayers and supplications offered to His Father and my Father, His God and my God, just like Thomas did, once he came to believe that Yahshua was, in fact, the temple Yahweh had chosen to dwell in. But I won’t say, “my Lord and my God” without qualifying the difference between the temple and He who dwells within amongst people I know would assume there is no difference.   The Jews of two millennia ago didn't need to be told that God is not, never has been, and never will be a man, as the people of this generation do.   Neither did they have any confusion over the difference between Yahweh and His temple, though they did struggle to grasp the revelation that the man Yahshua was both the one Yahweh had appointed King over His people and the Chief Cornerstone of His temple. How we can expect to be joined to the temple as Yahweh intends while refusing to acknowledge the difference between His temple and His person.  The natural conclusion of this error would be to assume ourselves, as living stones in Yahweh's temple, also to be God.  Such a mindset clearly represents the heart, mind, and ambitions of Satan and his children, not the children of the one true God.  In the end, Yahweh will bring upon the head of those who serve the devil exactly what they try to force upon His own children.  Obviously, the blessing of being the temple of the living God was never intended to rest solely upon the man Yahshua:    'Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie– behold, I will make them to come and bow down at your feet, and to know that I have loved you. …'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. (Rev 3:9,12) [ARCHIVED] SOURCE Did Thomas Call Yahshua “God”? …

Well said

[jammin]

limjunus,

you want me to answer your question but you are not answering mine.
you said your father is truly human.
my question is , are you truly human just like your father?yes or no?

mike,
are you truly human just like your father?
yes or no?

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 09 2012,08:58)

Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 08 2012,00:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2012,08:24)  And I find no scripture that says we too will become Gods. Mike, We will become God's family but not we will become Gods! Right.  But apparently the Trinitarians don't think about the fact that some of us will become SONS to God, and BROTHERS to Jesus. Surely that, in and of itself, shows that Jesus is not God.  I guess they think they will become BROTHERS to God Almighty.

Hmmm,

Well, since Mike believes that Yahshua was “a god” and emptied himself of being “a god” and then became “a god” again and believes that we can become his brothers, then would that also make us “gods”? LOL!

[terraricca]

f

Quote

Hmmm, Well, since Mike believes that Yahshua was “a god” and emptied himself of being “a god” and then became “a god” again and believes that we can become his brothers, then would that also make us “gods”? LOL!

thats what scriptures are saying about the 144k NOW IF YOU WOULD BE ONE OF THEM THAT I CAN NOT ANSWER THIS IS TO GOD ALMIGHTY TO SAY,

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Aug. 09 2012,08:24)

mike, are you truly human just like your father? yes or no?

Sorry jammin,

I forgot about this question yesterday. YES, I am truly human just like my (earthly) father is.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 09 2012,13:59)

Well, since Mike believes that Yahshua was “a god” and emptied himself of being “a god” and then became “a god” again and believes that we can become his brothers, then would that also make us “gods”?

That sounds about right, Frank. Those of us who are called to live in heaven with Jesus will be like the angels, who, scripturally speaking, are gods.

But Jesus and the other angels of God are not THE God who created the heavens and the earth, and neither will any of us be.

[jammin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2012,08:41)

Quote (jammin @ Aug. 09 2012,08:24) mike, are you truly human just like your father? yes or no? Sorry jammin, I forgot about this question yesterday.  YES, I am truly human just like my (earthly) father is.

you agree that your father is truly human
you agree that you and your father HAVE the same nature and that is your human nature.
you agree that you are also truly human just like your father.

therefore,

Christ is truly God just like his father
christ and his father have the same nature.
the father is truly God. the son is truly God by nature.

thanks for your answer
case closed

[Ed J]

Case re-opened

Do we become “God by nature” too? (2Peter 1:4)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Author]

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