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Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 06 2012,22:59) The lack of “thou art” or an equivilent reveals to us that Thomas was not declaring Jesus to be Lord and God.
Kerwin,Do a search of the words “my lord” in the scriptures. See how many times people call others “my lord” without saying the words “thou art”. Surely they are STILL declaring that one to be their lord, right?
Quote (carmel @ Aug. 06 2012,23:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 07 2012,10:15) My conclusion is that Thomas WAS declaring Jesus to be his lord and his god. Mike,
From the Human point of view,SINCE ONLY THROUGH JESUS WE HAVE A GOD, A FATHER , A SAVIOUR, A COMFORTER, AN ETERNAL LIFE, A BODY, A SOUL, A WAY,………AND ON THE LAST DAY WE ALSO BECOME GODS LIKE HE IS NOW.
Peace and love in Jesus the only true visible God.
Charles
Hi Charles,I don't agree with any of that. The Israelites had a God long before Jesus came to earth. And I find no scripture that says we too will become Gods.
But please remember to DELETE the bottom post box before submitting the post.
Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 07 2012,04:47) Mike, Jammin is diverting the issue to human nature and not to the nature (attributes) of God.
Tell me about it – I have been dealing with jammin on this thread since page ONE!
I have addressed his “nature” questions numerous times already.
jammin, YES, I have the same nature as my father, which means I am one of MANY human beings. Now what?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2012,08:14) Quote (jammin @ Aug. 06 2012,22:25) Quote (journey42 @ Aug. 07 2012,15:09) .
What version do you suggest I read?
of course his one and only NEW WORLD TRANSLATIONLOL
Yes jammin,The NWT is a very good translation. I actually prefer the NIV wording, and like it the best out of the four translations I've read cover to cover.
journey, I suggest using a site like NETBible, or Biblos.com for “comparison shopping”.
On those sites, you can view many parallel translations, plus check out the actual Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew words to see which translation comes the closest to the original.
There are also many commentaries you can read to find out even more concerning any particular scripture.
90% of the time, I quote the NIV when I quote scripture here. But that is not to say that they don't also have their own oddball renderings. Just check out John 1:18 in the NIV to see what I mean. Talk about bizarre and confusing.
LOLfor you mike.. for you . bec the NWT supports your god doctrine.
LOL
Quote (jammin @ Aug. 07 2012,22:20)
limjunus said:
the answer is our father in the flesh is “truly human”———
thanks.
now, are you truly HUMAN just like your father? yes or no?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2012,08:49) Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 07 2012,04:47) Mike, Jammin is diverting the issue to human nature and not to the nature (attributes) of God.
Tell me about it – I have been dealing with jammin on this thread since page ONE!I have addressed his “nature” questions numerous times already.
jammin, YES, I have the same nature as my father, which means I am one of MANY human beings. Now what?
is your father truly HUMAN> if yes,are you TRULY HUMAN just like your father?> yes or no?
Quote (carmel @ Aug. 08 2012,07:18) Quote given your own conclusion. Jesus ascending to my Father,.. is mean to you that from human being into a Supreme being? Limjunus,
TO BE EXACT:
FROM A WORM INTO GOD
With every respect, through your babyish questions, you confirmed that you need MILK NOT MEAT.!!!
Before we start can you define how one can assert himself that something is in the truth??
Quote If Jesus Christ is truly God, why need to be changed from truly God into truly God? Are you not aware what glorification means???
Are you not aware that Jesus solidified what he had as a mere man??
Are you not aware that Jesus was a mere human, a worm, in order to be in all things like His brethren, and through His death and resurrection He unified His soul and His flesh into one eternal spiritual flesh body???
Are you not aware that through the above description, so not to repeat, Jesus , became both visible and invisible in one being???
Quote another confusion is, “if the begotten Son is truly God, why changing from Son God into a Father God? Are you not aware that Jesus, in view of the above, He is a visible TRULY God as man Jesus for our sake in order to own us, since we were owned by Satan, His contender for manhood. ALSO an invisible God, and a Father to us, in His Father since He became ONE WITH HIS FATHER, in order to be an overall God, as soon as the Spirit of the Father entered Jesus’ Soul??
Are you not aware that the FATHER is also glorified and became even more Almighty considering the fact that scripture says:
John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine………….
Are you not aware that the above scripture says that Jesus a mere man, a worm, had to furnish the FATHER with all His (Jesus) THINGS, in order to make His Father TRUE, since up to then He was unknown even to His angels, NOT WITHSTANDING THE FACT THAT MOST OF YOU ON HEAVEN NET DECLARE THAT HE IS NOT THE TRUE GOD.
Are you not aware that Jesus, before creation He was in ONE glory with the Father as spirits, and after resurrection He became ONE in the same glory but in the flesh as well??
TO BE DECLARED THE TRULY GOD??
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Are you not aware that Jesus, after His glorification, since now you know what it means, He became OFFICIALLY the sole proprietor of the entire creation, something which God Almighty never was and not yet is, and He has to wait for millions and millions of years to achieve and become ALL IN ALL ON THE LAST DAY, AND ALSO, SINCE HE IS ONLY SPIRIT,THROUGH JESUS,IN JESUS ,AND FOR JESUS BODY??
Did Jesus need from truly God(Human) to be changed to truly God both carnal and spiritual???
Are you not aware, that the human race are not capable to save themselves, in fact they are dead, unless they give themselves entirely to Jesus, never mind Almighty God, not withstanding the fact that MOST OF YOU ON HEAVEN NET DECLARE THAT HE IS NOT THE TRUE GOD.
Are you not aware, that the cause of our creation, was only and purposely beneficial to the human race, and not to either God Almighty, and to Jesus.
Quote Another confusion you have made is, “If Jesus Christ is truly God, who is the flesh and died? SATAN'S
This is a babyish question?? YOU NEED MILK,NOT MEAT!!
THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING, THE SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE!!
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit.
John6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing………….
Romans 8:1 THERE is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh; God sending his own Son, IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH AND OF SIN (SATAN'S) HATH CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH
4 That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who WALK NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT.
5 For they that are ACCORDING TO THE FLESH mind the things that are ACCORDING TO THE FLESH,BUT THEY THAT ARE ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT MIND THE THINGS THAT ARE OF THE SPIRIT.
6 For the WISDOM OF THE FLESH IS DEATH; but the WISDOM OF THE SPIRIT IS LIFE AND PEACE .
7 Because the WISDOM OF THE FLESH IS AN ENEMY OF GOD (SATAN'S); for it is not subject to the law of God, neither can it be. 8 And they who are IN THE FLESH, CANNOT PLEASE GOD.
Peace and love in Jesus.
Charles
A very long explanation but it did not give us understanding who is the true and the only one God.This truth is the most important that your words.
Romans 15:6
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.Peace be with you.
Quote (jammin @ Aug. 08 2012,14:00) Quote (jammin @ Aug. 07 2012,22:20)
limjunus said:
the answer is our father in the flesh is “truly human”———
thanks.
now, are you truly HUMAN just like your father? yes or no?
Jammin, yohoooooo! where is your answer to my questions?1.) HOW MANY TRUE GOD DO YOU RECOGNIZE?
2.) WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, IS JESUS CHRIST, THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD OR HIS FATHER WHO HAD BEGOTTEN HIM?
3.) WHO IS THE ALONE, INVISIBLE AND IMMORTAL GOD?
I will re-post it again and again like what you done until I got your answers.
Oh' Jammin,…you still around? why you could not able to anwer my questions?
Jammin, yohoooooo! where is your answer to my questions?
1.) HOW MANY TRUE GOD DO YOU RECOGNIZE?
2.) WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, IS JESUS CHRIST, THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD OR HIS FATHER WHO HAD BEGOTTEN HIM?
3.) WHO IS THE ALONE, INVISIBLE AND IMMORTAL GOD?
I will re-post it again and again like what you had done until I got your answers.
No answer Jammin?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2012,08:24) Quote (carmel @ Aug. 06 2012,23:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 07 2012,10:15) My conclusion is that Thomas WAS declaring Jesus to be his lord and his god. Mike,
From the Human point of view,SINCE ONLY THROUGH JESUS WE HAVE A GOD, A FATHER , A SAVIOUR, A COMFORTER, AN ETERNAL LIFE, A BODY, A SOUL, A WAY,………AND ON THE LAST DAY WE ALSO BECOME GODS LIKE HE IS NOW.
Peace and love in Jesus the only true visible God.
Charles
Hi Charles,I don't agree with any of that. The Israelites had a God long before Jesus came to earth. And I find no scripture that says we too will become Gods.
But please remember to DELETE the bottom post box before submitting the post.
Mike,We will become God's family but not we will become Gods!
Here is the truth without explanation from anyone of us.
Romans 15:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.Who has a gut to change that truth? go and counter it with your human wisdom!
Here is another truth without without any elaboration from us.
Malachi 2:10 New International Version – UK (NIVUK)
10 Do we not all have one Father?[a] Did not one God [Father] create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?
Malakias 2:10 MB
10Hindi ba iisa ang ating Ama at ito'y ang iisang Diyos na lumalang sa atin? Kung gayo'y bakit sumisira tayo sa pangako sa isa't isa at bakit winawalang-kabuluhan natin ang kasunduan ng Diyos at ng ating mga magulang?UK Footnotes:
Malachi 2:10 Or fatherWho has a gut to alter that truth? … go and change the truth with your human wisdom.
Here is another truth without any elaboration from us.
Malachi 2:10 New International Version – UK (NIVUK)
10 Do we not all have one Father?[a] Did not one God [Father] create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?
Malakias 2:10 MB
10. Hindi ba iisa ang ating Ama at ito'y ang iisang Diyos na lumalang sa atin? Kung gayo'y bakit sumisira tayo sa pangako sa isa't isa at bakit winawalang-kabuluhan natin ang kasunduan ng Diyos at ng ating mga magulang?Romans 15:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.UK Footnotes:
Malachi 2:10 Or fatherWho has a gut to alter that truth? … go and change the truth with your human wisdom.:(
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2012,08:01) Quote (journey42 @ Aug. 06 2012,22:13) Mike If the word God wasn't used, then what word was?
Hi journey,I'm sorry I came on so strong. I was just shocked to see that you would be willing to pick tradition over truth in this matter.
The original word was “who”, or “which”. But you can read my post to Ed right above this post if you want to know more.
(I suggest you read the link at the bottom of the page in my post to Ed. It is short and to the point, and should only take 10 minutes out of your life.
)
© 2001 by David W. DanielsQuestion: Which is correct in 1 Timothy 3:16, “God was manifest in the flesh” (KJV) or “He appeared in a body” (NIV)?
Answer: Without a doubt, the Scripture says, “God was manifest in the flesh.” The vast testimony of history shows us clearly that the word in question is “God,” not “he” or “who.” But the Alexandrian lie ended up even in the Roman Catholic Vulgate and all modern perversions. Here's how easy it was.
In Greek, the word for God was abbreviated, like this:
ΘCBut the word “who” (which the NIV called “he”) was written like this:
OCThe difference between “God” and “who” in Greek was a little line. The amazing thing is, by the Alexandrians removing a line from one letter, they took away the deity of Christ!
The overwhelming testimony of history is that God preserved His words. In thousands of manuscripts, God preserved these words, “God was manifest in the flesh.” Though the Roman Catholic religion preserved the perversion of the Alexandrians, and every Alexandrian translation tries to hide it, it is still true: God was manifest in the flesh.
Θ (the Greek letter theta) is the first letter in Θεοῦ (the-o’s; the Greek word for God’s).
————————————————————————————–
The New World Translation was produced by the New World Bible Translation Committee, formed in 1947. This committee is said to have comprised unnamed members of multinational background. The New World Bible Translation Committee requested that the Watch Tower Society not publish the names of its members, stating that they did not want to “advertise themselves but let all the glory go to the Author of the Scriptures, God,” adding that the translation, “should direct the reader… to… Jehovah God”. The publishers believe that “the particulars of [the New World Bible Translation Committee's members] university or other educational training are not the important thing” and that “the translation testifies to their qualification”.Former high ranking Watch Tower staff, including former Governing Body member Ray Franz, have claimed knowledge of the translators' identities and education. This a list that they have revealed:
Franz, Frederick
Probably the only person to actually translate. Franz was a liberal arts student at the University of Cincinnati:
21 semester hours of classical Greek, some Latin.
Partially completed a two-hour survey course in Biblical Greek in junior year.
Self-taught in Spanish, biblical Hebrew and AramaicGangas, George
No training in biblical languages. Gangas was a Turkish national who knew Modern Greek. Translated Watchtower publications into Modern Greek.Henschel, Milton
No training in biblical languages.Klein, Karl
No training in biblical languages.Knorr, Nathan
No training in biblical languagesSchroeder, Albert
No training in biblical languages. Schroeder majored in mechanical engineering for three years before dropping out.
————————————————————————————-
Dr. Julius R. Mantey was a first rate scholar who studied Greek for more than 65 years. He was well known for “A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, which he co-authored with Dr. H.E. Dana. The following is a discussion that took place between Dr. Martin and Dr. Mantey on the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation.Christian Research Institute founder, Dr. Martin. begins by saying:
DR. MARTIN: In John 1:1, the New World Translation (NWT) says that “the Word was a God,” referring to Jesus Christ. How would you respond to that?
DR. MANTEY: The Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs) have forgotten entirely what the order of the sentence indicates – that the “Logos” has the same substance, nature, or essence as the Father. To indicate that Jesus was just “a god,” the JWs would have to use a completely different construction in the Greek.
DR. MARTIN: You once had a little difference of opinion with the Watchtower about this and wrote them a letter. What was their response to your letter?
DR. MANTEY: Well, as a backdrop, I was disturbed because they had misquoted me in support of their translation. I called their attention to the fact that the whole body of the New Testament was against their view. Throughout the New Testament, Jesus is glorified and magnified – yet here they were denigrating Him and making Him into a little god of a pagan concept.
DR. MARTIN: What was their response to what you said?
DR. MANTEY: They said I could have my opinion and they would retain theirs. What I wrote didn't phase them a bit.
DR. MARTIN: I don't know whether you're aware of it, but there is not a single Greek scholar in the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. I did everything I could to find out the names of the translating committee of the NWT, and the Watchtower wouldn't tell me a thing. Finally, an ex-JW who knew the committee members personally told me who they were, and the men on that committee could not read New Testament Greek; nor could they read Hebrew; nor did they have any knowledge of systematic theology – except what they had learned from the Watchtower. Only one of them had been to college, and he had dropped out after a year. He briefly studied the biblical languages while there.
DR. MANTEY: He was born in Greece, wasn't he?
DR. MARTIN: Yes, he read modern Greek, and I met him when I visited the Watchtower. I asked him to read John 1:1 in the Greek and then said, “How would you translate it?” He said: “Well, 'the word was a god.”' I said: “What is the subject of the sentence?” He just looked at me. So I repeated, “What is the subject of the sentence?” He didn't know. This was the only person in the Watchtower to read Greek and he didn't know, the subject of the sentence in John 1:1. And these were the people who wrote back to you and said their opinion was as good as yours.
DR. MANTEY: That's right.
DR. MARTIN: Often we find JW publications quoting scholars. Do they quote these people in context?
DR. MANTEY: No. They use this device to fool people into thinking that scholars agree with the JWs. Out of all the Greek professors, grammarians, and commentators they have quoted, only one (a Unitarian) agreed that “the word was a god.”
DR. MARTIN: You have been quoted as saying that the translators of the NWT are “diabolical deceivers.”
DR. MANTEY: Yes. The translation is deceptive, and I believe it's a terrible thing for a person to be deceived and go into eternity lost, forever lost because somebody deliberately misled him by distorting the Scripture!
DR. MARTIN: What would you say to a JW who was looking for the truth?
DR. MANTEY: I would advise him to get a translation other than the NWT, because ninety-nine percent of the scholars of the world who know Greek and who have helped translate the Bible are in disagreement with the JWs. People who are looking for the truth ought to know what the majority of the scholars really believe. They should not allow themselves to be misled by the JWs and end up in hell.
Christian Research Institute
Deception Exposed:
We feel Mantey has exposed the deception with his own words! How much more powerful can it get than that?
© 2001 by David W. Daniels
Question: Isn't it true that the King James Bible was translated by only half a dozen manuscripts, and that none of them was earlier than the 10th century (900s) AD?
Answer: This is true, but it misses an important point. It is true that the manuscripts used were copies of copies of copies written over many centuries. These “new” Greek manuscripts match up with over 5,700 others, some just as old as those from Alexandria, Egypt. Over 99% of the manuscripts we have found, ancient and modern, show an amazing agreement with each other. This is a testimony to God's preservation of His words!
Contrast this to the Alexandrian writings, used by the Roman Catholic institution and almost all “modern scholars.” The only 45 manuscripts called “Alexandrian,” many copied in the same school, not only do not agree with the vast majority, but they do not match up with each other!
But God's preserved words, descended from the apostles and sent from Antioch (Acts 11:26), were so important to the true Christians that they continued to be accurately copied century after century!
How important could the Alexandrian writings be, if these “scholars” could not even get together one clear Bible?
God preserved His words. The King James Bible is the accurate and complete translation of them, from Greek in Antioch of Syria into the English language.
===============================================
© 2001 by David W. DanielsQuestion: What was the method the King James translators used to translate the Bible?
Answer: King James had no part whatsoever in the translation of the Bible that now bears his name. But there were 47-54 scholars, however, whom God used to bring us His preserved words in English.
Translating the Authorized Version
54 scholars were appointed in 1604, and a few overseers were also present, who went from group to group. In time through death the number of translators diminished to 47. They were given three locations to work: Oxford, Cambridge and Westminster. And two groups worked at each location, making a total of six groups. The Bible was also divided up into six sections. Each group took one section, working on one book at a time.
First, each translator made his own translation of the book, which was reviewed by each other member of the group. Then the whole group reviewed the book. When they all agreed on the translation, they sent it to the other five groups for evaluation. Those groups then returned it to the original committee, marking anything they disagreed with. The original group would then go over the book again.
When all six committees finished with the book, it was sent, with any differences that were left, to a special committee made up of one leader from each of the six groups. They solved any remaining problems, and the book was sent to the printers.
But they did not work in secret, as did the “Revisers” in 1871 – 1881. At any time, the translators could ask an outside scholar for his understanding, and anyone could find out about the progress. The churches were kept informed at all times1.
In all, every single verse of the Bible was carefully examined and decided upon a total of fourteen times, by as many as 50 or more people! This made it impossible for any one translator to impose his personal viewpoint on a passage. He had to have logical reasons for a translation that were good enough to persuade every other scholar before it could be written into the text. There was no “private interpretation” here!
(2 Peter 1:20-21)Footnotes
1 Even liberal author Hannah O’Brien Chaplin Conant admitted this kind of “open” process was unlike any translation before and contributed to its genius. See The English Bible: History of the Translation of the Holy Scriptures into English (London: Trübner & Co., 1856), pp. 433 (note Translator’s Rules #11 & #12), 437-39. Available at http://www.books.google.com.
===============================================
devo
this is a story that contains a marvel in knowledge;
1Sa 5:1 After the Philistines had captured the ark of God, they took it from Ebenezer to Ashdod.
1Sa 5:2 Then they carried the ark into Dagon’s temple and set it beside Dagon.
1Sa 5:3 When the people of Ashdod rose early the next day, there was Dagon, fallen on his face on the ground before the ark of the LORD? They took Dagon and put him back in his place.
1Sa 5:4 But the following morning when they rose, there was Dagon, fallen on his face on the ground before the ark of the LORD? His head and hands had been broken off and were lying on the threshold; only his body remained.
1Sa 5:5 That is why to this day neither the priests of Dagon nor any others who enter Dagon’s temple at Ashdod step on the threshold.
1Sa 5:6 The LORD'S hand was heavy upon the people of Ashdod and its vicinity; he brought devastation upon them and afflicted them with tumors.
1Sa 5:7 When the men of Ashdod saw what was happening, they said, “The ark of the god of Israel must not stay here with us, because his hand is heavy upon us and upon Dagon our god.”
1Sa 5:8 So they called together all the rulers of the Philistines and asked them, “What shall we do with the ark of the god of Israel?”
They answered, “Have the ark of the god of Israel moved to Gath.” So they moved the ark of the God of Israel.
1Sa 5:9 But after they had moved it, the LORD'S hand was against that city, throwing it into a great panic. He afflicted the people of the city, both young and old, with an outbreak of tumors.
1Sa 5:10 So they sent the ark of God to Ekron.
As the ark of God was entering Ekron, the people of Ekron cried out, “They have brought the ark of the god of Israel around to us to kill us and our people.”
1Sa 5:11 So they called together all the rulers of the Philistines and said, “Send the ark of the god of Israel away; let it go back to its own place, or it will kill us and our people.” For death had filled the city with panic; God’s hand was very heavy upon it.
1Sa 5:12 Those who did not die were afflicted with tumors, and the outcry of the city went up to heaven.The Ark Returned to Israel
1Sa 6:1 When the ark of the LORD had been in Philistine territory seven months,
1Sa 6:2 the Philistines called for the priests and the diviners and said, “What shall we do with the ark of the LORD? Tell us how we should send it back to its place.”
1Sa 6:3 They answered, “If you return the ark of the god of Israel, do not send it away empty, but by all means send a guilt offering to him. Then you will be healed, and you will know why his hand has not been lifted from you.”
1Sa 6:4 The Philistines asked, “What guilt offering should we send to him?”
They replied, “Five gold tumors and five gold rats, according to the number of the Philistine rulers, because the same plague has struck both you and your rulers.
1Sa 6:5 Make models of the tumors and of the rats that are destroying the country, and pay honor to Israel’s god. Perhaps he will lift his hand from you and your gods and your land.
1Sa 6:6 Why do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did? When he treated them harshly, did they not send the Israelites out so they could go on their way?
1Sa 6:7 “Now then, get a new cart ready, with two cows that have calved and have never been yoked. Hitch the cows to the cart, but take their calves away and pen them up.
1Sa 6:8 Take the ark of the LORD and put it on the cart, and in a chest beside it put the gold objects you are sending back to him as a guilt offering. Send it on its way,
1Sa 6:9 but keep watching it. If it goes up to its own territory, toward Beth Shemesh, then the LORD has brought this great disaster on us. But if it does not, then we will know that it was not his hand that struck us and that it happened to us by chance.”
1Sa 6:10 So they did this. They took two such cows and hitched them to the cart and penned up their calves.
1Sa 6:11 They placed the ark of the LORD on the cart and along with it the chest containing the gold rats and the models of the tumors.
1Sa 6:12 Then the cows went straight up toward Beth Shemesh, keeping on the road and lowing all the way; they did not turn to the right or to the left. The rulers of the Philistines followed them as far as the border of Beth Shemesh.
1Sa 6:13 Now the people of Beth Shemesh were harvesting their wheat in the valley, and when they looked up and saw the ark, they rejoiced at the sight.
1Sa 6:14 The cart came to the field of Joshua of Beth Shemesh, and there it stopped beside a large rock. The people chopped up the wood of the cart and sacrificed the cows as a burnt offering to the LORD.
1Sa 6:15 The Levites took down the ark of the LORD, together with the chest containing the gold objects, and placed them on the large rock. On that day the people of Beth Shemesh offered burnt offerings and made sacrifices to the LORD.
1Sa 6:16 The five rulers of the Philistines saw all this and then returned that same day to Ekron.
1Sa 6:17 These are the gold tumors the Philistines sent as a guilt offering to the LORD—one each for Ashdod, Gaza, Ashkelon, Gath and Ekron.
1Sa 6:18 And the number of the gold rats was according to the number of Philistine towns belonging to the five rulers—the fortified towns with their country villages. The large rock, on which they set the ark of the LORD, is a witness to this day in the field of Joshua of Beth Shemesh.
1Sa 6:19 But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy of them to death because they had looked into the ark of the LORD. The people mourned because of the heavy blow the LORD had dealt them,
1Sa 6:20 and the men of Beth Shemesh asked, “Who can stand in the presence of the LORD, this holy God? To whom will the ark go up from here?”
1Sa 6:21 Then they sent messengers to the people of Kiriath Jearim, saying, “The Philistines have returned the ark of the LORD. Come down and take it up to your place.”
1Sa 7:1 So the men of Kiriath Jearim came and took up the ark of the LORD. They took it to Abinadab’s house on the hill and consecrated Eleazar his son to guard the ark of the LORDPS 14:2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2012,05:04) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 04 2012,11:51) Jesus’ words, “the Father is in Me,” must have left a strong impression on Thomas.
Indeed, they are the key to correctly understand what doubting Thomas later meant when
he said to Jesus, “my God.” That is, Thomas acknowledged what Jesus had taught ten
days prior, that God the Father is in Jesus.
Frank,The part I quoted is the ONLY part of your huge cut and paste that actually addresses the point in question.
All those words boil down to one little thing: Your author has INTERPRETED those words to mean Thomas was talking to both Jesus AND “the Father in him”.
Unfortunately, one cannot honestly come to that interpretation from the words Thomas said, or the surrounding context John wrote.
As for the rest of the post, it is good scriptural information proving that Jesus is not God Almighty – but bears no light on the words Thomas spoke.
My Lord And My GodSeeing the Invisible
When Tæoma (Thomas) saw Yeshua after his resurrection he made a peculiar statement that some have interpreted as blasphemy and others as confirmation of Yeshua's deity.
“And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.” – John 20:28, KJV
“And Tæoma said to him, My master and my Almighty.” – Yuħänän (John) 20:28, Peshitta
But to attain the correct understanding we must keep this statement in the context of a previous discussion.
“Yëshuå said to him, I am the way and the truth and the life. Nobody may come to the Father except in me. If you knew me, you would also know my Father. And soon you will know Him and you will see Him. Pilipoş said to him, Our master, show us the Father and it will satisfy us. Yëshuå said to him, I have been with you all this time and you do not know me, Pilipoş? He who sees me sees the Father. So how can you say, Show us the Father? Do you not believe that I am in my Father and my Father is in me? The words which I speak, I do not speak of my own, but my Father who lives in me performs these works.” – Yuħänän (John) 14:6-9
So afterward just as Yeshua had said, Tæoma finally recognized the Father, Who is God, within Yeshua. He saw the character and the power of God exhibited in his master. The first part of his statement “My master” was to show he had overcome his doubt about whether this man before him was in fact his risen master, then after pause revealed that he had also come to acknowledge that his master was in the Father, and the Father was in his master. He no longer needed to see God, Who can not be seen physically, but saw what qualities could be seen of Him in Yeshua.
Leaves in the WindOne might say. “Show me the wind.” However, the wind is not visible, it is invisible. But if we throw leaves into the wind and put the wind into the leaves, we can perceive the wind, how it moves, it's direction and speed. However we are really only seeing the effect or characteristics of the wind, and not the wind directly itself. In this way Yeshua is like the leaves, and God is like the wind.And when one sees leaves being whipped up into the air they say, “Look at that wind!” At first the disciple only saw the leaves, then he realized that the leaves reveal the wind while the leaves are not the wind and no one has ever seen the wind.
“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” – John 1:18, KJV
“No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.” – 1 John 4:12-16, KJV
“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” – 1 Corinthians 3:16, KJV
The reason I have quoted the King James Version of the bible here is because these passages are faithful to the original message and it is the source so many trust who have misinterpretedTæoma 's statement as an indication of the deity of messiah. So there is no excuse to not understand exactly what he meant. It is obvious that we too could receive such a statement since we too are to have God living within us and we too are to exhibit His characteristics.
Let me repeat that in case you did not realize what is being said here. You can say to a faithful believer “My master and my Almighty” or “My Lord and my God” with this understanding and intention, and you should be able to say that of any believer. You are then saying, I see the messiah in you, and I see God in you.
SOURCE…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2012,03:21) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 06 2012,22:59) The lack of “thou art” or an equivilent reveals to us that Thomas was not declaring Jesus to be Lord and God.
Kerwin,Do a search of the words “my lord” in the scriptures. See how many times people call others “my lord” without saying the words “thou art”. Surely they are STILL declaring that one to be their lord, right?
Mike,I do not think you are understanding me. When a person states “you are my lord” they are making a declaration. When they state “my lord” they are calling them by the title “my lord”.
Though I have seen both men and angels called “my lord” I have never seen either called “my god” in Scripture.
Quote New King James Version (NKJV)
6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.Limjunus,
You only have to read it again and reflect.
The trouble is that you simply cannot get it into your MIND,that in order to glorify GOD THE FATHER :
YOU MUST ONLY DO IT,SINCE YOU ARE SINFULL,AND MORTAL:
THROUGH JESUS CHRIST THE ONLY TRUE GOD FOR HUMANS
THE FATHER WOULD IGNORE YOU COMPLETELY,HE IS ONLY A GOD TO HIS ANGELS.
Matthew 10:32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven
33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Peace and Love in Jesus
Charles
Quote (carmel @ Aug. 09 2012,14:40) Quote New King James Version (NKJV)
6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.Limjunus,
You only have to read it again and reflect.
The trouble is that you simply cannot get it into your MIND,that in order to glorify GOD THE FATHER :
YOU MUST ONLY DO IT,SINCE YOU ARE SINFULL,AND MORTAL:
THROUGH JESUS CHRIST THE ONLY TRUE GOD FOR HUMANS
THE FATHER WOULD IGNORE YOU COMPLETELY,HE IS ONLY A GOD TO HIS ANGELS.
Matthew 10:32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven
33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Peace and Love in Jesus
Charles
charleswhat a piece of crap are you telling here
do you know at the least what is to give glory to God
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