JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (carmel @ June 17 2012,14:33)

Now go back to the old testament and without involving in any prophecy regarding Jesus, prove that God the Father existed. But make sure that you would be refering to GOD ALMIGHTY

Genesis 17:1
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty ; walk before me and be blameless.”

[carmel]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 18 2012,08:35)

Quote (carmel @ June 17 2012,14:33) Now go back to the old testament and without involving in any prophecy regarding Jesus, prove that God the Father existed. But make sure that you would be refering to  GOD ALMIGHTY Genesis 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty ; walk before me and be blameless.”

Quote

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty ; walk before me and be blameless

Mike,

Only Abraham believed so because he was born of God.

God could not speak to ordinary people because they were all dead SPIRITUALLY!!

ALSO:

THAT DOES NOT PROVE THAT HE WAS ALMIGHTY.

HE COULD BE SATAN ACTING AS GOD ALMIGHTY. A LIAR.

WHEN THE ANTICHRIST COMES HE WOULD PROCLAIM THAT HE IS GOD ALMIGHTY! BUT IT WOULD BE FOR THE LAST TIME THAT HE DO SO.

HE HAS BEEN DOING THIS SINCE CREATION OF OUR WORLD.

PROVE  THAT HE WAS ALMIGHTY

PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

THE ONLY TRUE GOD IN FLESH

CHARLES

[mikeboll64]

Quote (carmel @ June 17 2012,15:53)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 18 2012,08:35) Quote (carmel @ June 17 2012,14:33) Now go back to the old testament and without involving in any prophecy regarding Jesus, prove that God the Father existed. But make sure that you would be refering to  GOD ALMIGHTY Genesis 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty ; walk before me and be blameless.” Quote When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty ; walk before me and be blameless THAT DOES NOT PROVE THAT HE WAS ALMIGHTY. HE COULD BE SATAN ACTING AS GOD ALMIGHTY. A LIAR.

So it was Satan who formed his chosen people through Abram? The Israelites are not God's chosen, but Satan's?

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ June 18 2012,03:32)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2012,15:13) Hi T, The whole plan of God is to unite all in Him in that one Spirit. Jesus Christ is the firstborn of this new creation and we too are invited. Those who refuse the message become the dross and that dross is only fit for the fire. N Yes the spirit that his the rule of God ,love and righteousness ,practice that spirit and you become one with God but God does not in his person become part of you ,

T;

Are you claiming that when God's Love dwells in a person then God is said to dwell in him; because he is the source of that Love?

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ June 18 2012,00:55)

Quote (Ed J @ June 18 2012,01:13) Quote (terraricca @ June 17 2012,17:52) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2012,00:38) Hi T, You display your ignorance again. God cannot be separated from His Spirit. If you were separate from yours you would be dead. Jas 2] N Can I send my spirit Hardly N and edj Right why would God send his spirit IF IT HIS HIMSELF

PIERRE

Are you yourself still alive when your spirit leaves your body?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ June 18 2012,19:09)

Quote (terraricca @ June 18 2012,03:32) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2012,15:13) Hi T, The whole plan of God is to unite all in Him in that one Spirit. Jesus Christ is the firstborn of this new creation and we too are invited. Those who refuse the message become the dross and that dross is only fit for the fire. N Yes the spirit that his the rule of God ,love and righteousness ,practice that spirit and you become one with God but God does not in his person become part of you , T; Are you claiming that when God's Love dwells in a person then God is said to dwell in him; because he is the source of that Love?

K

Yes .LOVE and righteousness = holiness

RO 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

RO 8:35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

RO 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

1CO 2:9 but just as it is written,
“THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD,
AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN,
ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.”

1CO 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

1CO 13:13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1CO 14:1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
1CO 16:14 Let all that you do be done in love.
1CO 16:22 If anyone does not love the Lord, he is to be accursed. Maranatha.

WHAT YOU THINK IT SAYS IN THOSE SCRIPTURES

[kerwin]

T;

I do not disagree with you on this.

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (terraricca @ June 16 2012,14:54)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 16 2012,19:19) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 16 2012,11:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2012,09:37) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 15 2012,13:40) I found a great printable tract at: DID JESUS THINK HE WAS GOD? It is indeed a well put together, scripturally supported tract. Mike, I am shocked to hear you say that! Mike, If you found that tract well put together and Scripturally supported, maybe you would like to participate in commenting on their blog forum at: Did Jesus Pre-exist? Oh, if only this forum were like the one linked above it would be a blessing!   F I went there and read their comment s on did Jesus preexisted, nice comments but left out most of the scriptures we are treating in this forum, you can feel that they walk you trough by the hand ,religion practice ,(ignore all scriptures who does not support your views  or are to difficult to answer and so may cancel out your view)

Piear,

Get involved in their forum and bring up the Scriptures you are referring to. You won't though, because you don't have a leg to stand on!

[NickHassan]

Hi T,
Yes those reborn into Christ live by the law of love.
But those without the law perish without the law.

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2012,13:06)

Hi T, Yes those reborn into Christ live by the law of love. But those without the law perish without the law.

n

WHAT DO YOU THINK ;IS IT THE WATER THAT MAKE YOU A REBORN

OR IS IT THE LOVE FOR CHRIST AND HIS FATHER THAT MAKE YOU TO BE REBORN

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Pay very close attention Mike! Get ready to be owned again! 😀

Yes, It can be said that Father Yahweh's word, wisdom and truth is with Him. If Father Yahweh's word, wisdom and truth is said to be with us in Scripture, His word, wisdom and truth can most certainly be said to be with Him in the beginning:

A Further Look at John 1:1

Is the current translation of John 1:1 really a translation at all, if by translation we mean the conveying of the original into an intelligible equivalent in the target language? Does the phrase “the Word was with God” mean anything in English? When was your word last “with you”? We suspect that our present standard renderings, though they may be literally correct, simply allow the reader to feel good about his received orthodox Christology of the eternal Son assuming human nature. The capital on “Word” immediately suggests a person
preexisting. And many readers (11 million copies around the world in many languages) are offered a paraphrase such as the Good News Bible: “Before anything else existed, there was Christ, with God. He has always been alive and is himself God. He created everything there
is. Nothing exists that he did not make.” The reader's orthodoxy is all the more confirmed. But the Roman Catholic scholar Karl Josef Kuschel in his recent massive treatment of the question of Christ's origin asks: “Why do we instinctively read: 'In the beginning was the Son and the Son was with God'?

It seems to us that the Hebrew Bible should provide our first line of investigation, if we are to get at John's intention in the prologue. As a professor told me in seminary, “If you misunderstand the Old Testament you will misunderstand the New Testament.” Amazingly no occurrence of the Hebrew word davar (word) corresponding to John's Greek word logos provides any evidence that the “word from the beginning” means a person, much less an uncreated second divine person, the Son of God,along side the One God of Israel's creed. Davar in the Old Testament means “word,” “matter,” often “promise” or “intention,” but never a person. The ubiquitous presence of a capital “W” on word in our English versions is unwarranted. John did not say that the preexistent word was a second and distinct person before it
became embodied in the Messiah. Why shouldn't John therefore be saying that God's creative and expressive activity, His word or wisdom, the index of His mind, was “with Him, “just as wisdom was “with [para] Him” in Proverbs 8:30 (LXX)? Proverbs 8, in fact,has remarkable parallels with what John later says about Jesus. Life is found in the words of Jesus (John 6:63), as it is found in Wisdom. Wisdom cries out just as Jesus does (John 12:44), as he urges people to heed his teaching. What is predicated of Wisdom in Proverbs is elsewhere attributed to God (Job 12:13-16). Significantly, John always uses the preposition para (with) to express the proximity of one person to another (1:39;4:40; 8:38, etc.). Yet in his prologue he chooses pros (with), suggesting that “the word” is not meant to designate a person along side God. The first verse of John is reminiscent too of what Wisdom says in Ecclesiasticus 24:9: “God created me from the beginning before the world. “There is good evidence that the Hebrew prepositions im or et meaning “with” can describe the relationship between a person and what is in his heart or mind. Here are some interesting examples of the use of the Hebrew prepositions im and et from the Hebrew Bible:

“Im (with), alone = in one's consciousness, whether of knowledge, memory or purpose:

Num. 14:24: “He had another spirit with him” (operating in his mind)

1Kings 11:11: “This is with thee [Solomon]” (what you want)

I Chron. 28:12: “The pattern of all that was in the spirit with him” (in his mind)

Job 10:13: “I know that this was with you” (parallel to “hidden in your heart”; “in your mind,” NIV; “I know that the set hings are your purpose,” NASV)

Job 15:9: “which is not with us” (we don't understand it)

Job 23:10: “He knows the way which is with me” (the way of which I am conscious)

Job 23:14: “He performs the things which are appointed for me and many such things are with Him” (He has many such purposes); LXX: “He has willed a thing and done it.”

Job 27:11: “That which is with the Almighty I will not conceal” (His purposes)

Ps. 50:11: “Wild beasts of the field are with Me” (known to Me, in My thought and care)

Ps. 73:23: “I am continually with thee” (in your thoughts)

Et: “a dream or word of Yahweh is said to be with the prophet.”

Gen.40:14: “Keep me in mind when it goes well with you” (lit.”Remember me with yourself'). (The Word was what God had in mind.)

2 Kings 3:12: “There is with him the word of the Lord” (cp. 2 John 2: “truth is with us”; Gal. 2:5: “truth remains with you”)

Isa.59:12: “Transgressions are with us” (in our knowledge, present to our mind). (Cp. John 17:5, the glory which Jesus had with God-present to God's mind, as His purpose.)

Jer. 12:3: “You examine my heart's attitude with you” (lit. “You have tried my heart with you”)

Jer. 23:28: “The prophet with whom there is a dream” (the prophet who has a dream)

Jer. 27:18: “If the word of the Lord is with them”

Job 14:5: “His days are determined. The number of his months is with you” (known to you)

Prov. 2:1: “Treasure my commandments within you” (= with you)

Prov. 11:2: “Wisdom is with the humble.”

In view of this Hebrew background we suggest a translation of John 1:1, 14
as follows:

“In the beginning God had a Plan and the Plan was fixed as God's Decree and the Plan was fully expressive of
God's mind, and the Plan became embodied in the Man Messiah Jesus.”

– The Doctrine Of The Trinity – Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound By Anthony F. Buzzard And Charles F. Hunting
SOURCE

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

“Jesus IS God!”?

…

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ June 19 2012,09:19)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2012,13:06) Hi T, Yes those reborn into Christ live by the law of love. But those without the law perish without the law. n WHAT DO YOU THINK ;IS IT THE WATER THAT MAKE YOU A REBORN OR IS IT THE LOVE FOR CHRIST AND HIS FATHER THAT MAKE YOU TO BE REBORN

Hi Pierre,

We are reborn by God's HolySpirit birthing us on the inside.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[NickHassan]

Hi T,
Loving God and His Christ is proved by actions.

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2012,16:30)

Hi T, Loving God and His Christ is proved by actions.

n

YES AGREED

[terraricca]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 19 2012,16:23)

Pay very close attention Mike! Get ready to be owned again! Yes, It can be said that Father Yahweh's word, wisdom and truth is with Him. If Father Yahweh's word, wisdom and truth is said to be with us in Scripture, His word, wisdom and truth can most certainly be said to be with Him in the beginning: A Further Look at John 1:1 Is the current translation of John 1:1 really a translation at all, if by translation we mean the conveying of the original into an intelligible equivalent in the target language? Does the phrase “the Word was with God” mean anything in English? When was your word last “with you”? We suspect that our present standard renderings, though they may be literally correct, simply allow the reader to feel good about his received orthodox Christology of the eternal Son assuming human nature. The capital on “Word” immediately suggests a person preexisting. And many readers (11 million copies around the world in many languages) are offered a paraphrase such as the Good News Bible: “Before anything else existed, there was Christ, with God. He has always been alive and is himself God. He created everything there is. Nothing exists that he did not make.” The reader's orthodoxy is all the more confirmed. But the Roman Catholic scholar Karl Josef Kuschel in his recent massive treatment of the question of Christ's origin asks: “Why do we instinctively read: 'In the beginning was the Son and the Son was with God'? It seems to us that the Hebrew Bible should provide our first line of investigation, if we are to get at John's intention in the prologue. As a professor told me in seminary, “If you misunderstand the Old Testament you will misunderstand the New Testament.” Amazingly no occurrence of the Hebrew word davar (word) corresponding to John's Greek word logos provides any evidence that the “word from the beginning” means a person, much less an uncreated second divine person, the Son of God,along side the One God of Israel's creed. Davar in the Old Testament means “word,” “matter,” often “promise” or “intention,” but never a person. The ubiquitous presence of a capital “W” on word in our English versions is unwarranted. John did not say that the preexistent word was a second and distinct person before it became embodied in the Messiah. Why shouldn't John therefore be saying that God's creative and expressive activity, His word or wisdom, the index of His mind, was “with Him, “just as wisdom was “with [para] Him” in Proverbs 8:30 (LXX)? Proverbs 8, in fact,has remarkable parallels with what John later says about Jesus. Life is found in the words of Jesus (John 6:63), as it is found in Wisdom. Wisdom cries out just as Jesus does (John 12:44), as he urges people to heed his teaching. What is predicated of Wisdom in Proverbs is elsewhere attributed to God (Job 12:13-16). Significantly, John always uses the preposition para (with) to express the proximity of one person to another (1:39;4:40; 8:38, etc.). Yet in his prologue he chooses pros (with), suggesting that “the word” is not meant to designate a person along side God. The first verse of John is reminiscent too of what Wisdom says in Ecclesiasticus 24:9: “God created me from the beginning before the world. “There is good evidence that the Hebrew prepositions im or et meaning “with” can describe the relationship between a person and what is in his heart or mind. Here are some interesting examples of the use of the Hebrew prepositions im and et from the Hebrew Bible: “Im (with), alone = in one's consciousness, whether of knowledge, memory or purpose: Num. 14:24: “He had another spirit with him” (operating in his mind) 1Kings 11:11: “This is with thee [Solomon]” (what you want) I Chron. 28:12: “The pattern of all that was in the spirit with him” (in his mind) Job 10:13: “I know that this was with you” (parallel to “hidden in your heart”; “in your mind,” NIV; “I know that the set hings are your purpose,” NASV) Job 15:9: “which is not with us” (we don't understand it) Job 23:10: “He knows the way which is with me” (the way of which I am conscious) Job 23:14: “He performs the things which are appointed for me and many such things are with Him” (He has many such purposes); LXX: “He has willed a thing and done it.” Job 27:11: “That which is with the Almighty I will not conceal” (His purposes) Ps. 50:11: “Wild beasts of the field are with Me” (known to Me, in My thought and care) Ps. 73:23: “I am continually with thee” (in your thoughts) Et: “a dream or word of Yahweh is said to be with the prophet.” Gen.40:14: “Keep me in mind when it goes well with you” (lit.”Remember me with yourself'). (The Word was what God had in mind.) 2 Kings 3:12: “There is with him the word of the Lord” (cp. 2 John 2: “truth is with us”; Gal. 2:5: “truth remains with you”) Isa.59:12: “Transgressions are with us” (in our knowledge, present to our mind). (Cp. John 17:5, the glory which Jesus had with God-present to God's mind, as His purpose.) Jer. 12:3: “You examine my heart's attitude with you” (lit. “You have tried my heart with you”) Jer. 23:28: “The prophet with whom there is a dream” (the prophet who has a dream) Jer. 27:18: “If the word of the Lord is with them” Job 14:5: “His days are determined. The number of his months is with you” (known to you) Prov. 2:1: “Treasure my commandments within you” (= with you) Prov. 11:2: “Wisdom is with the humble.” In view of this Hebrew background we suggest a translation of John 1:1, 14 as follows: “In the beginning God had a Plan and the Plan was fixed as God's Decree and the Plan was fully expressive of God's mind, and the Plan became embodied in the Man Messiah Jesus.” – The Doctrine Of The Trinity – Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound By Anthony F. Buzzard And Charles F. Hunting SOURCE Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth? “Jesus IS God!”? …

f

Quote

In view of this Hebrew background we suggest a translation of John 1:1, 14 as follows: “In the beginning God had a Plan and the Plan was fixed as God's Decree and the Plan was fully expressive of God's mind, and the Plan became embodied in the Man Messiah Jesus.”

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.
1Jn 1:2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his So
n, purifies us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
1Jn 2:4 The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Rev 22:11 Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy.”

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 18 2012,16:23)

“In the beginning God had a Plan and the Plan was fixed as God's Decree and the Plan was fully expressive of God's mind, and the Plan became embodied in the Man Messiah Jesus.”

Non-preexisters always want to add the word “IN” to 1:14.  But the Word BECAME flesh, Frank.  It did not come to be IN someone who already was flesh.

Also, your source completely ignores the fact that Jesus is most definitely named “the Word of God” in Rev 19.  So, is “the word” mentioned in John 1:1 “God's plan”, or the one named “the word” in 19:13?

Well, we know that this particular word became flesh, and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.  With which one do those facts fit better, Jesus or God's plan?

We know from 1 John 1:1 that the disciples saw this word with their own eyes, and touched this word with their own hands.  With which one do those facts fit better, Jesus or God's plan?

Add to that the fact that John 1:3 says all things were created through this particular word.  Compare that to Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, and Heb 1:2, which say the same thing about Jesus.

Add to that the fact that John the Baptist said very particular words about this particular word in 1:15.  He later says the exact same words about Jesus in 1:30.

Frank, I could go on, but do I really need to?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ June 18 2012,16:25)

Hi Pierre, We are reborn by God's HolySpirit birthing us on the inside.

Are we reborn by God's Holy Spirit? Or by God's God?

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 19 2012,11:01)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 18 2012,16:23) “In the beginning God had a Plan and the Plan was fixed as God's Decree and the Plan was fully expressive of God's mind, and the Plan became embodied in the Man Messiah Jesus.” Non-preexisters always want to add the word “IN” to 1:14.  But the Word BECAME flesh, Frank.  It did not come to be IN someone who already was flesh. Also, your source completely ignores the fact that Jesus is most definitely named “the Word of God” in Rev 19.  So, is “the word” in 1:1 God's “plan”, or the one named “the word” in 19:13? Well, we know that this particular word became flesh, and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.  With which one do those facts fit better, Jesus or God's plan? We know from 1 John 1:1 that the disciples saw this word with their own eyes, and touched this word with their own hands.  With which one do those facts fit better, Jesus or God's plan? Add to that the fact that John 1:3 says all things were created through this particular word.  Compare that to Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, and Heb 1:2, which say the same thing about Jesus. Add to that the fact that John the Baptist said very particular words about this particular word in 1:15.  He later says the exact same words about Jesus in 1:30. Frank, I could go on, but do I really need to?

Mike,

No, the SOURCE did not completely ignore the fact that Yahshua is most definitely TITLED “The Word of Yahweh” in Rev 19. The true fact is, you completely ignored the rest of the context of the SOURCE!

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 19 2012,11:19)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 19 2012,11:01) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 18 2012,16:23) “In the beginning God had a Plan and the Plan was fixed as God's Decree and the Plan was fully expressive of God's mind, and the Plan became embodied in the Man Messiah Jesus.” Non-preexisters always want to add the word “IN” to 1:14.  But the Word BECAME flesh, Frank.  It did not come to be IN someone who already was flesh. Also, your source completely ignores the fact that Jesus is most definitely named “the Word of God” in Rev 19.  So, is “the word” in 1:1 God's “plan”, or the one named “the word” in 19:13? Well, we know that this particular word became flesh, and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.  With which one do those facts fit better, Jesus or God's plan? We know from 1 John 1:1 that the disciples saw this word with their own eyes, and touched this word with their own hands.  With which one do those facts fit better, Jesus or God's plan? Add to that the fact that John 1:3 says all things were created through this particular word.  Compare that to Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, and Heb 1:2, which say the same thing about Jesus. Add to that the fact that John the Baptist said very particular words about this particular word in 1:15.  He later says the exact same words about Jesus in 1:30. Frank, I could go on, but do I really need to? Mike, No, the SOURCE did not completely ignore the fact that Yahshua is most definitely TITLED “The Word of Yahweh” in Rev 19. The true fact is, you completely ignored the rest of the context of the SOURCE!

Mike,

BTW, you did not pay very close attention as I had suggested that you do! Do you not remember conveying to me quite some time ago that it did not make sense in that Father Yahweh's word was WITH Him? That makes you a total ignoramus!

[Ed J]

Hi Frank,

Please try to refrain from name-calling while expressing your opinion.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Author]

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