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Irene……..You have a right to view it anyway you like, and i respect that right, But i don't see iot that way, I simply believe if John met Jesus he simply would have said Jesus. and I Know GOD is a Title and Jesus said there was (ONLY) ONE (TRUE) GOD. There are m any gods but for me (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD, I stay with that. Thanks.
love and peace to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ May 27 2009,02:31) Thinker……Jesus said THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD, so it was (NOT) HIM. Do you believe Jesus' own words or NOT, If you do you will believe that there is (ONLY) ONE (TRUE) GOD. The LORD said YOU shall have (NO OTHER) GOD'S besides ME. He also said (I) am GOD and there is (NO) OTHER. Come out of that TRINITARIAN CONFUSION Brother. IMO peace and love……………….gene
Gene,
Again you are taking scripture out of context. Here is the passage in context,Quote And this is eternal life, that they might know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I have glorified you on the earth. I have finished the work you gave me to do. And now, O Father, glorify me together with yourself, with the glory I had with you before the world was (John 17:4-5) You asked me if I believe Jesus' words? Do you? Do you accept that he was pre-existent? He asked the Father to glorify him with the glory he had with the Father before the world was. Therefore, Jesus was pre-existent. God said that He will not share his glory with another. So if Christ shared glory with the Father before the world was then Christ is not different from God. Please stop with your UNITARIAN CONFUSION.
thinker
Thinker ………..You can not prove if that Glory was a preplaned Glory that GOD had Planned for Jesus or not. Believe what Peter said about Jesus, I believe He woud have Known do YOU. He said Jesus was (FOREORDAINED) that means (Fore Planned) to recieve this Glory, but only recieved it after He was GLORIFIED after His resurrection, Jesus Know that was the GLORY given Him from GOD (the ONLY) GOD Had for HIM all along, in this sense Jesus had foreordained GLORY and He KNOW THAT> Peter fully understood this and said it that way. Yes GOD know all a long He was going to perfect a HUMAN BEING and elevate Him to GLORY. Even we are foreordained for this GLORY, ” What is man that thou art mindful of Him that so kind to him you should be, for thou hast made him (Man) a little lower the the angles for the tasting of death, but Has crowned Him (MAN) with GLORY and POWER, But we do not yet see man Crowned with GLORY, BUT WHAT DO WE SEE, WE see JESUS who was made lower then the angles for the suffering of death (like us) now crowned with Glory and Honor. This is the same thing GOD is going to give US, I told you before thinker , do not separate you likeness of Jesus. He is simply the prototype of what we are to become, we are called to come to the (FULL MEASURE) of Christ Jesus, not half measure. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Gene What you are doing with this Scripture is you are interpret so it fits the way you want it to be. thinker is believing the way it is written. He has a glory with the Father before the world was. That is what it says.
It also goes along with other Scriptures that show us that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation.
Col. 1:15
Rev. 3:14
Proverbs 8:22-30
Since all these Scriptures say that He was first in all, why is it that you deny it? He also is the firstborn of the dead. So in all things He has preeminence. Meaning first in all.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (t8 @ Feb. 26 2004,08:55) Thought I would bring this post to the front. I am still seeking information regarding the Logos and it's meaning.
Logos is translated as Word, and can mean a thought and/spoke word. Some say expression, even soul.
Was/is the Logos a person in his own right?
Was/is the Logos ever once just contained within God?
Is Jesus still the Logos?
Hey t8: Here's something you might find interesting. If you look up the words, “thing or things” in the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance for the King James Bible, in the New Testament, they are almost all translated from the word Logos! Almost every time you see the word “thing” it is from “Logos”. Just a thought.”Logos/things” “rhema/a discussion.” Peace, TKIrene………Show us (ONE) Scripture that says Jesus (PREEXISTED) before He was BORN on EARTH . Wouldn't you think that would have been a very important point that (ALL) the Apostles would have very clearly brought out. And we would not have to be trying to piece Scriptures that do not SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT, in order to make it a doctrine . Come out of the false teaching of the Apostate Church. Not to mention simple logic would tell you that would not be prove anything to us if GOD did do it that way, how could we really relate with Jesus if he was some kind of super being or a demigod, it just doesn't fit for GOD to take an already perfect Being kill him and rebirth Him and then kill him again, it would serve no Point what so ever , we could (NEVER) truly RELATE with Him. The TRINITY, PREEXISTENCE, alone with doctrines about demons and so-called (FREE WILL) salvation are all false teaching of the APOSTATE CHURCH. IMO
peace and love to you and Gerog………………………gene
Tim Kraft………..Your are right applying the word LOGOS as a (PERSON) instead of its simple meaning is a distortion of scriptures and Just simple logic would tell people that if John 1:1 wanted to mean Jesus John would have just written Jesus' mane in there. All of the changing to mean a person is of the APOSTATE CHURCH, WHICH WE ARE TOLD TO COME OUT OF THOSE FALSE TEACHINGS. John maintained that unless we see Jesus as coming into existence in the flesh we are anti-Christ He even repeated it three times, though one was taken out by Trinitarian Translators at a very important place in the text. But a good Greek translations shows it there. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Gene I just did give you Scriptures that say that He was the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:15 read this Scripture. Preexisting means that He was there with God the Father before the world was. If through Him all was created, He had to be there before all, would you not think so? Not only that John 1:1 goes right along with all. He made all it says in verse 3. Again if He made all He had to be there before all . God did not kill Him, He gave up the glory He had with the Father and became a man, for us, to save us from eternal death. Don't you wonder why He knew so much when He went in the Temple and the Pharisees were surprised that He knew so much.
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which I had with You
before the world was.
Rev. 3:14 SAME HERE.Gene you are so set in your way and cannot see that Jesus was in the very beginning with the Father, He was His delight.
Does Gen. not tell you that there were two, when they created men? Let us make men in our image. Us and Our is not the Father alone.
Please use a little common sense. Preexisting just means that He was there before the world was, nothing else.
That's all, open your heart and eyes, please. I had to, too not even to long ago.
Peace and Love Irene
Why would the Apostle's have to say anything about this.
Who wrote Ephesians, Paul did.
Rev. John did. And most of all Jesus said that He had a glory with the Father before the World was. He had that glory and He said I want that glory again, now I am Pyro phrasing here.Quote (Gene @ May 27 2009,13:05) Thinker ………..You can not prove if that Glory was a preplaned Glory that GOD had Planned for Jesus or not. Believe what Peter said about Jesus, I believe He woud have Known do YOU. He said Jesus was (FOREORDAINED) that means (Fore Planned) to recieve this Glory, but only recieved it after He was GLORIFIED after His resurrection, Jesus Know that was the GLORY given Him from GOD (the ONLY) GOD Had for HIM all along, in this sense Jesus had foreordained GLORY and He KNOW THAT> Peter fully understood this and said it that way. Yes GOD know all a long He was going to perfect a HUMAN BEING and elevate Him to GLORY. Even we are foreordained for this GLORY, ” What is man that thou art mindful of Him that so kind to him you should be, for thou hast made him (Man) a little lower the the angles for the tasting of death, but Has crowned Him (MAN) with GLORY and POWER, But we do not yet see man Crowned with GLORY, BUT WHAT DO WE SEE, WE see JESUS who was made lower then the angles for the suffering of death (like us) now crowned with Glory and Honor. This is the same thing GOD is going to give US, I told you before thinker , do not separate you likeness of Jesus. He is simply the prototype of what we are to become, we are called to come to the (FULL MEASURE) of Christ Jesus, not half measure. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Gene,
You are explaining it away. Jesus said,Quote Glorify me with the glory I had together with you BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN Jesus said that He HAD glory with God before the world began. Then He gave up that glory and God glorified Him with the same glory He once had.
You misunderstand the “measure of Christ” statement. The “perfect man” and the “measure of Christ” has to do with living according to the spirit and not under the law like children. Paul told them to no longer be children but act like the man who has come to the full measure of Christ.
This is true of us NOW.
thinker
thinker I agree with you, but will they that like Gene and others belief this way? I sure hope that God the Father will open their minds to this. I have said this before and I also just made a post in the preexisting Tread. I did not belief this either when a J.W. told me about it, but God did not leave me in that unbelief and I thank Him for it. Good luck, thinker.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (thethinker @ May 28 2009,05:49) Quote (Gene @ May 27 2009,13:05) Thinker ………..You can not prove if that Glory was a preplaned Glory that GOD had Planned for Jesus or not. Believe what Peter said about Jesus, I believe He woud have Known do YOU. He said Jesus was (FOREORDAINED) that means (Fore Planned) to recieve this Glory, but only recieved it after He was GLORIFIED after His resurrection, Jesus Know that was the GLORY given Him from GOD (the ONLY) GOD Had for HIM all along, in this sense Jesus had foreordained GLORY and He KNOW THAT> Peter fully understood this and said it that way. Yes GOD know all a long He was going to perfect a HUMAN BEING and elevate Him to GLORY. Even we are foreordained for this GLORY, ” What is man that thou art mindful of Him that so kind to him you should be, for thou hast made him (Man) a little lower the the angles for the tasting of death, but Has crowned Him (MAN) with GLORY and POWER, But we do not yet see man Crowned with GLORY, BUT WHAT DO WE SEE, WE see JESUS who was made lower then the angles for the suffering of death (like us) now crowned with Glory and Honor. This is the same thing GOD is going to give US, I told you before thinker , do not separate you likeness of Jesus. He is simply the prototype of what we are to become, we are called to come to the (FULL MEASURE) of Christ Jesus, not half measure. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Gene,
You are explaining it away. Jesus said,Quote Glorify me with the glory I had together with you BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN Jesus said that He HAD glory with God before the world began. Then He gave up that glory and God glorified Him with the same glory He once had.
You misunderstand the “measure of Christ” statement. The “perfect man” and the “measure of Christ” has to do with living according to the spirit and not under the law like children. Paul told them to no longer be children but act like the man who has come to the full measure of Christ.
This is true of us NOW.
thinker
Thinker…..This is not explaining it away brother, it is the simple truth. IMOpeace and love to you brother……………..gene
Gene What you might think as truth, could very well be wrong, or are you denying that? We all could
be wrong.
Since there are other Scriptures that go along with John 17:5, IMO you need to take a real good
look at it again. Pray about it.
Peace and Love IreneGene said:
Quote Thinker…..This is not explaining it away brother, it is the simple truth. Gene,
You are explaining it away. Jesus prayed and asked the Father to glorify Him with the glory He HAD with Him before the world began. You say that when we accept truth we become one with God. Then accept that Christ is pre-existent so you may become one with God.thinker
Thinker ……I become one with GOd the same way Jesus became one with Him trhough His SPIRIT, not by a preexistence of any Kind. Even though I could just as easly say what Jesus said ” Farther give me the Glory that i had with you before the world began. After we are all Preordained for the GLORY right, “What is man that thou are so mindful of Him , for thou has created Him lower the the angles (LIKE JESUS) for the tasting of death, but you have crowned Him with (GLORY) and HONOR”. Now thinker could i also say i preexisted, Yes in the Plan and will of GOD. It the same for Jesus as US Brother, do not separate Jesus from your likeness, if you do, you will be non of His. He is One of US brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Gene said:
Quote After we are all Preordained for the GLORY right, We do not have that glory now, right? Jesus had that glory BEFORE, He gave it up and was glorified again.
thinker
Quote (Gene @ May 29 2009,07:44) Thinker ……I become one with God the same way Jesus became one with Him through His SPIRIT, not by a preexistence of any Kind. Even though I could just as easily say what Jesus said ” Farther give me the Glory that i had with you before the world began. After we are all Preordained for the GLORY right, “What is man that thou are so mindful of Him , for thou has created Him lower the the angles (LIKE JESUS) for the tasting of death, but you have crowned Him with (GLORY) and HONOR”. Now thinker could i also say i preexisted, Yes in the Plan and will of GOD. It the same for Jesus as US Brother, do not separate Jesus from your likeness, if you do, you will be non of His. He is One of US brother. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Gene you said what? You said this Even though I could just as easily say what Jesus said ” Farther give me the Glory that i had with you before the world began. After we are all Preordained for the GLORY right, “What is man that thou are so mindful of Him , for thou has created Him lower then the angles.You could not, because you did not have a glory with God, but Jesus did. You are really denying Scripture. Why? Preordained does not compare with preexisted.
I don't know what else to say to you, except that you are so wrong. That Scripture goes along with others.
Col. 1:15 and Rev.3:14 and since I have put these Scriptures up before I will not waste my time. That,s all, so sorry Gene.
Peace to you, IreneIrene said:
Quote Preordained does not compare with preexisted. Irene,
Amen! Jesus' words are so simple a child could understand. And Gene's equation of preordained with pre-existence just makes people scratch their heads in confusion.thinker
Irene…and Thinker……….Peter doesn't agree with the Preexistence of Christ or he would have said He preexisted, in fact no Apostle said Jesus Preexisted his berth here on earth. Wouldn't you think something as important as that would have been very clearly explained in the Gospels, but we only have scripture that can be twisted to mean preexistence, Which the Trinitarians used to give support for their triune GOD ideology. The whole thing of The Trinity and Preexistence only Separates Jesus Likeness and Identity with US, and is a Creation of the Apostate Church. IMO
peace and love………………………..gene
Irene……..Have you not read where it says for whom He fornew He also predestined to conform unto the Image of His Son. That is a predestined or Foreordained statement. And how about where Jesus said to the Father concerning us (FATHER they were YOURS and thou hast given them to me). Question when were we HIS, in this existence or a previous one.The same applies to Jesus. Why do you not want to see Jesus as ONE of US anyway, have you ever ask youself that question? IMO.
peace and love………………………..gene
Gene Just because the Apostles did not mention the preexistence of Jesus, does not mean that He was not, that is so ridiculous. No Gene we do not twist Scripture, in fact we only go by the Scripture, while you denying them.
You don't even explain what they do say. All you do is accuse me of being something I am not. I do not believe in the trinity doctrine or do I belong to a Apostate Church. ( I don't even know what Church that is.) To say what you did is not even Christian like. Peter does not disagree with it either, does He. Let me add one more Scripture and that is
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. Unless you want to call Jesus a liar, He does preexist, before He became a man.
Irene
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