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@Danny,
What is the point of your statement?
The definition of deceive is “to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid.” Please do tell me where or what I have said that caused you to accept what is false or invalid. To be “deceived”, one must accept; so your example of types of “deceivers” makes no sense.
Nowhere have I denied God, in fact I have pushed him more to the front if anything; concerning Jesus, I don’t think I have flat out denied who he is. All I have said is the NT comes into question and specifically Paul and what he “teaches.”
The QUESTION I asked was to find where in the OT is Paul’s “according to scripture” claim the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind AND be buried and raised up on the third day. Then I said, IF this statement cannot be found/validated in the OT, we have a problem. Somehow I am a “deceiver” for pointing out this “anomaly.”
The reality is everyone believes a statement to be true which cannot be validated; I’m validating what is said to be true and can’t validate it (apparently neither can anyone else). So, by the definition, who is deceiving who?
Oh, what a tangled web we weave…
Everyone seems to forget, I was on the same page (few exceptions) with most posting here. In fact was encouraged in my writings by some. Then about two months ago I came across the I Cor 15:3,4 verse; but didn’t gloss over it this time and everything was overturned…AGAIN! I have been “given” passages that are said to be pointing to “Messiah dying”; but, when the surrounding verses and chapters are put into context, the claim doesn’t work.
Then I asked where in the OT is Paul’s claim the Messiah was to be buried and raised up on the third day and have heard nothing. How do you not understand the issue? Paul said “according to scripture”, which means it’s stated in the OT; not buried between the lines or hidden within a mystery. Every other place in the NT when it says “as it is written” or “to fulfill scripture” a verse is directly pointed to and quoted; just not here…explain.
Desire Truth…….no where in the Old Testament doe it say Jesus would be in the Grave three days and thre nights, Jesus know that so he himself compared his time in the Grave to Jonah, and revealed it to them before it happened. Where did Paul say that Jesus was prophesied to be in the Grave three days and three nights at? But there are many scriptures that reference him in the Old Testament , even Moses told the people that God would raise up a prophet like him from among them, and that they should listen to him. In the book of Plsms he is said to not see corruption in the grave. And Jesus is the only one who can fulfill the prophesy of a suffering servant, the nation of Israel ,nor the Jews cannot fulfill the prophesy of Isa 53 , that is clearly evident by all the Old Testament , they were never servants of God or they would still be in their land and would have never been kicked out in the first place if they were true “suffering servants’’,.
Desire Truth……..you’re swatting at a gnat and swallowing a camel. This is causing you to turn away from Jesus Christ our lord, bad form brother.peace and love to you and your Desire Truth……….gene
@Gene,
Either I am not explaining it properly or you are intentionally ignoring/rejecting what is being said.
You: “no where in the Old Testament doe it say Jesus would be in the Grave three days and three nights”
Me: Exactly!! YET, Paul said this was “according to scripture.” If this is “according to scripture”, the only “scripture” available to the first century church was the OT.
You: “Where did Paul say that Jesus was prophesied to be in the Grave three days and three nights at?”
Me: Copied from the KJ – I Cor 15:3,4 “3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE:”
Other translations say “just as the Scriptures said”, “as the Scriptures say”, “as the Scriptures predicted”, “as written in the Scriptures”, “according to the Writings”, “just as it is written”, “as the scriptures foretold”, “in accordance with the Scriptures”; are you seeing it yet?
Tell me where Paul was quoting from because I can’t find it! Without any doubt by saying “according to scripture” Paul was referencing something written in the past. How can this be ignored?!?!
From where you begin writing “In the book of Psalms…” to the end of the paragraph, you still haven’t read with understanding what I have written. Since I’ve said Ps 16 and 22 and Isa 53 are not speaking of Jesus, you have rejected everything I have said and have dismissed it as being false; without ever looking into what I have said. You have never answered a question I have asked nor explained your position to why you believe these chapters are speaking of Jesus and because it “sounds like” Jesus isn’t proof.
Tell me which would be more dangerous, rejecting God the Father or rejecting Jesus? Before you say rejecting Jesus is rejecting the Father, answer why in the OT God is salvation and in the NT God can no longer handle the job and requires a “helper”? Are you saying God’s salvation in the OT is less adequate than the NT kind? When was the last time you verified the teachings of the “church”?
Hi Desiretruth,
It seems you must be led by sight, and understanding must go before faith.
You have yet to be buried with Christ that you may be raised with him
You do have those choices and you are welcome to make them.
But you will not be satisfied till others join your mission it seems.I’m not asking anyone to join me. I’m asking questions that no one seems to be able or willing to answer. Your responses are an excellent example and proves you cannot answer them either. Am I not suppose to question anything? Am I suppose to just blindly accept all that the church tells me? Is blind faith even faith?
Oh wait, I suppose to read scripture and the spirit will guide me to understanding; but don’t ask questions when something doesn’t make sense! And heaven forbid you continue to ask questions, you’ll be told the “spirit isn’t in you”, labeled as an “unbeliever”, a “heretic”, or one who is deceived. It’s like an exclusive country club and if you don’t comply, you’re out; sadly, that’s the “church” today.
What I find hilarious is instead of showing where the “error” is and explaining how or why it’s an error, everyone gets defensive – how dare I question church liturgy! Is this how you all respond to the “unbeliever”? It’s no wonder the modern church is falling apart and people are leaving in droves.
Hi Desiretruth,
With Paul we say “ It is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me.”
We been baptised into his death that we may share in his resurrection. Having been beheaded for the sake of his headship ticking the intellectual boxes to satisfy the minds of men is no longer relevant.
But enjoy your mission even though it will not bear good fruit.
A vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedonia was standing and appealing to him, and saying
” Come over to Macedonia and help us”….
So putting out to sea from Troas, we ran a straight course to Samothrace….
and from there to Phillipines..
And on the Sabbath day we went outside the city to a riverside, where we were supposing there would be a place of prayer..
A woman named Lydia,….. a worshipper of God was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household had been baptised, she urged us saying.
”If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay”
And she prevailed upon us.
Acts 16.9f
God’s ways are not our ways and His wisdom is far deeper.
The Modern “ church” bears no relationship to that which established by Jesus Christ but is a false one and doomed to collapse and reveal her true nature.
You still don’t understand, I am merely asking questions and offering additional thoughts, albeit contrary to what I have been taught for over 40 years. You still have answered zero questions; which tells me you aren’t as strong in your faith as you think you are. You keep saying “nothing new under the sun”; then my questions should have simple and easy answers because they have already been asked. Why can’t you answer them?
By the way, the “modern church” is what you currently belong to.
Hi Desiretruth,
No religious affiliation.
Your questions are never to uplift but only to pull down faith because that is where your soul languishes in hopelessness and misery which is a lonely place.Hi desiretruth,
Convinced in your own ideas your hope is to draw others into your doubts and isolation.
Sure that the ways of God are like your own is your downfall.
Only God can make you childlike again.
Good Morning Desire Truth,
I admire your persistence and trying to hold folks accountable to your question concerning the OT scripture that Paul was speaking to in 1 Corinthians 15 as it relates to 3 days and 3 nights.
1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
John 2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
The disciples are clearly referring to scripture from the book of Jonah to which Jesus spoke of.
Matthew 12:39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Paul and the disciples believed in Jesus’s words, to which Jesus spoke of a sign and related it to scripture of Jonah. Because of Jesus’s own words they came to acknowledge that the account of Jonah in the whale three days and three nights was also a prophetic sign related to Jesus.
You had previously said, “some will jump to Jonah as proof; please don’t, Jesus had said he would be in the earth As Jesus was in the belly of the whale. This isn’t a prophecy but a comparison and Jonah being in the whale was a punishment for not listening to God. If we are going to use Jonah as proof, what was Jesus being punished for?
Jesus’s sign he said was “the sign of the prophet Jonah”. Was Jonah being in the whale three days and three nights itself any sort of sign at that time, NO. Jesus tells us that Jonah being three days and three nights in the heart of the earth was a prophetic sign concerning himself and Paul and the disciples believed it.
Yes, we could say that Jonah was being punished for not listening to God, but punishment is to be tested and being tested serves an instructional purpose.
Jesus himself was being tested and perfected.
Jesus said that he would be in the HEART of the earth three days and three nights. The heart of the earth does not represent anywhere in the bible that I could find as the grave. The HEART of the earth I would argue represents the wicked realm of man.
Genesis 6:5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.
Psalms 528:1 Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men? 2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
God had protection over Jesus until his time was to come, keeping him from the hearts of man on the earth who wanted to destroy him. As well, Jesus knew times to hide himself.
John 8:20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified…27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour…13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him;
The hour came when Jesus entered into the heart of the earth, the day of his betrayal where Judas made a deal and watched for an opportune time to hand him over. God took away his protection and Jesus would no longer hide, he would face unjust judgment by the wicked hearts and violent hands of the sons of men.
Mark 8:31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.
After three days FROM him being dead, or after three days FROM him suffering many things?
We do see from scripture that it was believed Jesus meant three days from his death, but it would be convenient to have them misunderstand for otherwise they might have thought to guard the tomb sooner.
Jesus had said on Wednesday that his time had come, he knew he was being betrayed where on that day Judas met with the chief priests making a deal and sought from that time an opportunity to hand him over. Jesus was laid in the tomb before sunset on Friday and it would be three days and three nights from Wednesday if he rose on the Sabbath early on Saturday before the guards secured the tomb. When God promised that his body would not see decay is this because he would raise him from the dead at a time before the body begins to decay? After 24 hours internal organs start to decompose.
When Jonah was in the whale three days and three nights he was being tested and his soul was troubled. Jonah cried, prayed, honored God and received deliverance from death.
When Jesus knew that he had been betrayed by Judas he began to be tested where his soul was troubled. Jesus cried, prayed, and honored God even while he was being beaten, mocked and crucified, he too received deliverance, he was resurrected from the dead.
Like I said, I am opening a can of worms I know here!
A final statements for now,
Jesus was being punished in the heart of the earth, by wicked sons of men, which God allowed for the purpose of testing his faith, for the purpose which we are told that through his suffering he was perfected.
To repeat my position, By Jesus answering, “none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah”, he was revealing indeed that Jonah being in the whale three days and three nights was a prophetic sign in relation to himself.
Thank you Jodi and Gene,
”As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made carful searches and enquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.”1 Peter1.10f
Jonah was a prophet.
Jonah died. Like Jesus he gave up his human spirit in death.
jn 19.30 Lk 24.46
But also like Jesus, as an anointed man, he was yet alive by the Eternal Spirit of life. 1 Peter 3.18
And like Jesus he was resurrected back to earthly life.
@Jodi,
My persistence is a demand for truth, I am finding I have wasted 40 years following doctrines of man and not what God said. This isn’t the X-Files where “the truth is out there” as we argue over our interpretation of the bible; God told us HIS simple truth and we need to stop complicating what HE said.Jonah is a prime example; Jesus made a comparison to what happened to Jonah to what was to happen to him. The answer given was prompted because the scribes and pharisees asked for a sign (tangent – what kind of “sign” where they looking for?) and the sign they where to be given was “as Jonah was…so will the son of man be.” Jesus was making a comparison. Jonah actions and subsequent consequence wasn’t prophesy about what was to happen to a future Messiah when he ran from what God told him to do and ended up inside a large fish. There is no supposed “death” correlation of Jonah being inside the fish and Jesus in a tomb…Jonah never died inside the fish. Then to go on to say the fish vomiting Jonah onto the beach relates to Jesus rising from the tomb is man’s reading between the lines to make a doctrine work. I don’t know if this is what you have been taught, but this is the general teaching of the many churches I have attended throughout my years and is man’s doctrine.
If Jesus is all you or anyone gets out of Jonah, one has missed the point of the book. Jonah is in my opinion one of the most relatable prophets, he fits how a real person would respond to God when faced with a difficult task. God asked him to go to an enemy city (capital of Assyria) and tell them to turn from their wickedness or God will destroy them, you have 40 days – figure it out. What do you think was going thru Jonah’s mind at that point? My guess, if he doesn’t give them the message God will destroy them and they are no longer a threat to Israel and the fact he’s an Israelite going into an enemy city. I’d run the opposite direction too – exactly what he did. God said nope, your giving the message to the city and I’ll let you think about it inside a fish for three days. God gave Jonah a second opportunity and he delivers God’s message. The next part makes Jonah even more relatable, he gets angry at God because the entire city repents and is spared from destruction.
Is the message here Jesus or is it the loving kindness God has for HIS creation? Jonah 4:11 says it all when God says “Shouldn’t I be concerned for Nineveh…?”, a wicked city that repented. Sounds like God’s mercy extends to all mankind and it comes directly from HIM; and not through or because of anyone else. In Paul’s message of redemption, he NEVER talks about going to God directly, it’s always thru Jesus. Even Jesus says the only way to the Father is thru him; yet, in the OT one is to go to God. What and when did it change? Are you seeing it? It’s almost like Catholicism where one goes to the priest for confession and they will work on your behalf before God. You want to open Pandora’s box, let’s keep going with this line of thought.
I Cor 15:4 still remains left unanswered…and by association, verse 3. Not looking for extrapolations, Paul said it was “according to scripture”, which means it’s written what was to happen to the Messiah.
Hi Desiretruth,
God has provided us with His teachings through the men of old and He has given us the keys to unlocking their meaning through Jesus Christ and his brothers who share in his Spirit.
There are no promises that all would understand and agree.
It requires faith.find it.
Hi Desiretruth,
We walk by faith and not by sight.
Truly truly I say to you , unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.
So understanding follows obedience to the command that we repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ and receive the promised Sprit of Truth.
Folks want to nderstand first and stand arguing outside the gates of salvation.
You realize you have addressed nothing in anything I’ve written; so what is your point in responding? Your religious responses do NOT answer my questions; either answer them and offer insight or remain silent. Your meaningless responses further solidifies what I am discovering and confirms that you don’t know why you believe what you believe. Having faith in something is one thing, but blind faith is just blindness.
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