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@Gene,
You: “I don’t recall you ever telling us who it is “specifically” speaking about. Please tell us and explain to us how you reached that conclusion. You’re contradicting our assumptions, but not telling us who it is talking about then. ”
Me: This makes me sad (post #943966 & #943990) I spent an appreciable amount time writing and explaining, and you didn’t even read what I wrote. In other responses I expounded on certain verses and asked you to explain why or how it could be Jesus and was met with silence, having few if any of my questions answered. Explained the pronouns used throughout. Either you’re going to study God’s words or you are going to study man’s interpretation of God’s words.
You: “Do you even believe it is a “prophesy.” Or not”?
Me: Absolutely it’s a prophecy; just nothing to do with Jesus.
You: “To say we need to throw out our New Testament bibles and Just go by what is in the Old Testament is sure madness.”
Me: Never said to get rid all NT bibles, just the KJV as it changed the tenses of words, changing the meaning of what is being said, and therefore corrupt. I say the same thing about the NIV and Passion translations; pure garbage. You do realize this is my “personal thought” concerning these translations. If you like them, I can’t stop you from reading them; but, I will not remain silent in pointing out the corruption.
Never said OT only; I did say the veracity of the NT comes into question IF what Paul said in I Cor 15:3,4 cannot be found in the OT. I’m still waiting… Now I’m finding other issues concerning the NT when it quotes the OT.
You: “He simply was say what they were hearing should align with the Old Testament scriptures.”
Me: “should align” or “must align”? I’m going with the “must.”
You: “What Mark, Matthew, Luke and John, Peter, James, and Paul wrote, most certainly matches what is written in the Old Testament scriptures, as far as I am concerned.”
Me: Are you sure what they write aligns and/or matches with the OT and then as far as you’re concerned they align no matter what, even if there is a discrepancy? You want a scary thought, I can show you multiple instances where the OT and NT don’t align. Truth is what I demand and when I find flagrant misquotes of the OT in the NT, we have a problem and it brings the veracity of the NT into question. I’ll ask again, how many discrepancies can there be before the NT is no longer the “inspired word of God”?
Hi Desire Truth
YOU: If you are going to say Isaiah is prophesying what the apostles are going to say speaking of the crucified of Jesus, then the personal pronouns need an explanation. If the “our”, “me”, and “my” refer to the apostles and the “he”, “him”, and “his” refer to Jesus; then Jesus died only for the apostles since the “our”, “me”, and “my” take ownership of the deeds done to the “servant.” Doesn’t make sense does it?
ME: I’m not following your logic when I read Isaiah 53:1-9.
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
The “our” and “we” that follows include the people receiving the report. In verse 8 “for the transgression of my people” would represent the people of Israel though we know that Gentiles also were given the report and he died for their transgression as well.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Hi Gene,
I am doing good just been extremely busy, thank you brother for checking in! Hope you are doing well also!
@ Jodi,
There is no logic involved in what I wrote; I’m simply using rules of grammar and associating the pronouns to who is speaking or being spoken of. This is why it’s extremely important to know who is speaking where in this “song.” I applied your line of thinking that the “our”, “me”, and “my” refer to the apostles (apparently speaking on behalf of mankind) and the “he”, “him”, and “his” refer to Jesus (I’m using the NAS for the pronouns).
Why is “my servant” in chapters 41 thru 65 Israel/Jacob; but in chapter 53 it’s Jesus…what shifted?
Let’s say Isa 53 is about the death of Jesus and Paul is correct with his statement of “according to scripture”; where is the second part about the messiah dying and being raised on the third day?
Desire Truth…….Who told you that it is a “Song” and not a prophesy? Not to say a song can’t still be a prophesy though. I just see where you emphasize the word “song”. as if that makes a difference in the text.
peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth……..gene
@Gene,
Do a search on the four “Servant Songs” of Isaiah – Isaiah 42:1–4; Isaiah 49:1–6; Isaiah 50:4–11; and Isaiah 52:13–53:12 is what you will come up with. Did I come up with these as being “songs”, NO. The Jewish and Christian scholarly did, I’m just repeating what they have said. Theses “songs” are taught in both Judaism and Christianity and you have never heard of them? My emphasis on the term “song” is to point these passages must be read together to fully understand what is being conveyed.
Concerning the prophetic nature of these passages, of course they are! How these passages are interpreted is where Judaism and Christianity diverge; which then goes back to my question to Jodi, the servant in chapters 41-65 are a reference to Israel/Jacob except for chapter 53…explain!
Knowledge is a vanity if it is not aligned with Wisdom.
Understanding with too if aligned with pathetic logic or human wisdom.
Knowing the Word is truth means we must approach it humbly and let it teach us.
There is no room for expertise for all at best are students hoping to learn .
Desire Truth…….It makes no difference if they are songs, if you insist that 53 is about the nation of Israel, then it is your responsibility to show us how, or in what way it fits, because I see no where in any scriptures where the nation of Israel, ever fit that description give there of a “suffering servant”, that is punished for anyone’s sins and iniquities, except for there own, in all of the Old Testament scriptures, if I am wrong, then please show it to me.
By the way, the man Jacob/ Israel, was indeed a servant of God as scripture shows, but that does not mean his decedents were at all. In fact Scriptures show the opposite, they even killed the true stuffing servant, Jesus Christ.
peace and love to you and yrs Desire Truth………..gene
@Gene,
Have you read Isaiah Chapters 41-65 yet? Please read this section of Isaiah all the while paying attention to who the “servant” is. If you don’t we will continue to go in circles and I am not a fan of merry-go-rounds.
Using the handful of translations I use on a regular basis, KJV translates verse 2 in the future tense, while the others have it in the past. Explain! Who’s right, who’s wrong?
I have already explained who is speaking where in Isa 52:13-53:12 and I even linked it in my post on Aug 1st. I have explained it is the nations speaking in verses 1-9 and said it was THE NATIONS explaining why Israel suffered, claiming it was THEIR sins that Israel bore, and NOT Israel claiming they took on the sins of the nations.
You have yet to explain how Jesus’ saw his seed, how his days were prolonged, or how God’s will prospered in his hands in verse 10. This is incumbent on YOU to prove this applies to Jesus.
I explained how in verse 10 the “guilt offering” is an asham offering and is an offering done when one is unsure if a sin was committed. What sin did Jesus unknowingly commit to make this offering?
It’s difficult to have a conversation when it becomes one sided, you need to read what has been written and answer my questions too.
@desire Truth
Israël
👇
Isaiah 41:8-16
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
[9] Thou whom I have taken👉 from the ends of the earth,👈 and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; 👉I have chosen thee, 👈and👉 not cast thee away.👈
[10] Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.
[11] Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
[12] Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.
[13] For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee.
[14] Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
[15] Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff.
[16] Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.Isaiah 42
Jesus Christ the Messiah
👇
[1] Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
[2] He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
[3] A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
[4] He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have👉 set judgment in the earth👈: and the isles shall wait👉 for his law.
5] Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
[6] I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee 👉for a covenant of the people, 👈
👉for a light of the Gentiles;👈Isaiah 43
Israël
👇
10] Ye are 👉my witnesses(plural)
, saith the LORD, and👉 my servant whom I have chosen:(see Is. 41: 8) that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
12] I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore 👉ye are my witnesses👈, saith the LORD, that I am God.
20] The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, 👉my chosen.👈
To be continued
🙏
There are faults in every Bible. The NIV BLATANTLY adds to scripture.. In Jn 12 41 it adds JESUS, which did not come from any manuscript.
But knowing there are faults does not mean we are fit to be a judge of scripture.
Nothing in your reply have you proved or explained anything; pointy fingers, pointing at existing words, does not offer proof or an explanation to what the words are trying to convey. Am I suppose to translate pointy fingers to mean Jesus? Explain how these verses in Isa 42:1-4 (first “servant song”) ARE a reference to Jesus.
Chapter 42 is a continuation from 41 and you admit 41 is speaking of Israel; are we to throw out all grammatically rules because you want Jesus to be found in this chapter 42 passage? Explain how suddenly the first few verses of 42 shift to speak of Jesus? The servant being spoken of in verses 18,19 is the same servant spoken of in verse 1; the servant (Jesus), according to your grammatical understanding, is now deaf and blind.
Read Isa 49:1-6 and compare the similarities to Isa 42:1-6 as it speaks of “isles” AND “light to the gentiles” – have some thoughts on that. Isa 49:1-6 is the second “servant song” and there is NO doubt who the servant is; it explicitly states “Thou art my servant, O Israel.” From either side of the religious isle, the four servant songs are about God’s servant and what they’re suppose to do for God. The second song give no doubt to who the servant is. This would mean all the servant songs are speaking of/about the same servant. Since the second song states it’s Israel, it would mean the first (Isa 42), third (Isa 50), and fourth (Isa 53) are also speaking of Israel and NOT not Jesus.
To the beginning we return, where in the OT does it state the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind and be buried and raised from the dead after three days. If this cannot be found, the NT comes into question or at least the “teachings” of Paul do.
You: “But knowing there are faults does not mean we are fit to be a judge of scripture.”
Me: I’m not “judging” scripture, I am pointing out the corruption of the translators; if the tenses, plurality, or the punctuation is changed anywhere, the meaning can be changed and a bias inserted. The fact the translators of the KJ changed the tenses of words from a past to a future event, there’s a problem. I will not be silent in pointing it out and you are free to do with the information as you choose (either accept or reject the corruption); BUT, definitely verify for yourself and if I’m wrong, show me.
@ désire Truth
Isa.42
[1] Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth;show me verses where the soul of God delights with his servant “Jacob/Israel
The tendency is rather calls to return to God, and not compliments,…
👇
Isaiah 44:22
I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: 👉return unto me;👈 for I have redeemed thee.Maybe you can answer the question surrounding what is stated in I Cor 15:3,4 where Paul states “according to scripture” the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind and be buried and raised from the dead after three days. Paul makes the claim and there was no NT in the first century, so Paul was speaking of it being “prophesied” in the OT. Find it!!
To say I am “judging”; this isn’t judging, this is verifying what has been said to be truth. Are you saying you wouldn’t have an issue if Paul’s statement isn’t verifiable in the OT as he claims?
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