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Carmel………No matter how you try to corrupt our scriptures, it plainly say (not me) …..he is the firstborn “FROM THE DEAD”. JESUS himself said …..“I was “DEAD” an am now alive “FOREVER MORE”, That is the exact same thing that must happen to us.
You constantly try to make Jesus out to be different than his brothers and sisters, that is exactly what the Devil wants you and all his ministers to do. Scripture says (not me) ….”Jesus is the firstborn of “MANY BRETHREN”. NOT THE “ONLY” BORN, of many brethren, but the first, and if Jesus said , “I am the root and offspring of David,” , then he could not have existed before King David , common sense should tell you that.
Your illogical cherry picking and changing of scripture only proves how really screwed up your thinking is. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours………gene
@ Proclaimer,
YOU:
If Jesus Christ was not the literal firstborn of all creation, then this verse is impossible.
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
Do I hear an amen to this verse. So far no one is saying amen to these verses in the New Testament. I guess some of you have issues with some verses in the New Testament.
ME:
FYI, the verse sited is Jude 1:25
How does this verse become impossible in relation to Christ not being the “literal firstborn of all creation”? Explain. The older translations leave out “through Jesus Christ our Lord”; was this part of the original manuscript or was this phrase added at a later date and when? If it was added, we have a problem; what else has been added or even removed that we don’t know about?
With the phrase there, God is incapable of giving salvation because he must have Christ in order to grant it. Which then means God is small and isn’t the Almighty and Christ would then be greater. Was there no salvation in the old testament? This almost sounds similar to what Berean wrote concerning God’s judgment and redemptive capabilities and not being able to do either without Christ.
What does it mean to be the “literal firstborn of all creation”? Explain.
@ desire Truth
This almost sounds similar to what Berean wrote concerning God’s judgment and redemptive capabilities and not being able to do either without Christ.
Me
Scriptures
John 5
[22] For the Father JUDGETH NO MAN, but hath committed ALL JUDGMENT UNTO THE SON :
[23] That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which hath sent him.
…..
[27] And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, BECAUSE HE IS THE SON OF MAN.Rev.19
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and hold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth JUDGE and make war. ….
[13]And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called 👉 The Word of God.👈John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and 👉without him was not any thing made that was made. 👈[14]
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
🙏
@ Berean,
You don’t see how that belief and understanding diminishes the Father?!!? The Father, who created the universe and all that is in it, is incapable of judging and redeeming HIS creation. My the God you serve is tiny! I believe the understanding you are missing is the Father/Son, King/Prince relationship. The son/prince can never be over the father/king; HOWEVER, for the father/king to delegate authority to the son/prince is what is plainly written in the new testament and Christ testifies too. To equate the Father as being in need of the son to perform certain tasks (redemption, judgment, or anything else) is a LIE. If your religion is teaching this, RUN!!!
Then you site the same verses you have been peddling the entire time I have been here for your proof. Have you studied any of those verses?
The first one proves God delegated judgment to the son…what do you read from it?
The second verse is to long of an explanation to sum up in a one liner.
The third, did you do the study on the “son of man” like I suggested everyone should do? NOPE!
The four, Rev 19 we have been over already and you believe your religion, study it for yourself and find truth!
The fifth, John 1 the entire purpose of this thread for the last 20 years and it’s still the same “I’m right, your wrong.” STUDY the prologue to the book of John (verses 1-18); not just believe what you have been told, seek the truth.
In none of what you written have you explained what these verses mean to you and why. All it is, is a repeating of what you have been told to say; what you have been indoctrinated to believe; and the smashing of the “I Believe” button. Step out of your box!
@ desire Truth
All I see is you’re rejecting the simple truth , comme Gene et Jodi and you want to teach us…?
Hi Gene,
Back to your post Page 1202 No.#943293
You: Carmel……God is our Father , not Jesus, or why would Jesus even say, (not me),
“I am going to my father “AND” your Father, my God “AND” your God”.
NO Gene:
ONLY YOU CORRUPTLY ARE SAYING THE ABOVE!
Mr. Spirit of TRUTH,
WHERE AND IN WHICH SCRIPTURE WE CAN READ SPECIFICALLY THE ABOVE
LIES?
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel…….Jesus said (not me) ….John 20:17…..”Jesus saith unto her,” Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my “BRETHREN” , and say unto them, I ascend unto “MY” Father and “YOUR” Father, and to “MY” God and “YOUR” God.
FIRST notice he called his disciples his “brothers”. Second he say’s, his Father is their Father, and his God and their God , who is the exact same being.
That is exactly what is written, now please show where that is any different then what I have said.
Carmel the only “LIAR” here, is you. As you do the deceitful work of you father the devil. “Repent”peace and love to you and yours Carmel……….gene
In reference to John 20:17 “My Father, your Father; My God, your God.” Did the Jews think of God as their father? After doing a quick, simple search; let’s take a look…
Isa 63:16 “For you are our Father, though Abraham doesn’t know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us: you, Yahweh, are our Father; our Redeemer from everlasting is your name.” Who’s the “redeemer” and where does he come from…hmmm
Isa 64:8 “But now, Yahweh, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you our potter; and we all are the work of your hand.”
Does God call himself a father?
II Sam 7:14 “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son. And when he happens to transgress, then will I chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the sons of men.”
I Chron 17:13 “I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to Me a son; and My mercy will I not withdraw from him, as I withdrew it from them that were before you.”
I Chron 22:10 “He shall build a house to My name; and he shall be a son to Me, and I will be a Father to him; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom in Israel forever.”
I Chron 28:6 “And God said to me, Solomon your son shall build My house and My court; for I have chosen him to be My son, and I will be to him a Father.”
Jer 31:9b “for I have become a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.”
Does God compare himself as a father?
Psa 103:13 “As a father pities his children, the Lord pities them that fear Him.”
Prov 3:12 “for whom the Lord loves, He rebukes, and scourges every son whom He receives.”
Studying is your friend!
Hi Gene, and ALL
Carmel…….Jesus said (not me) ….John 20:17…..”Jesus saith unto her,” Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
I ascend to “MY” Father and “YOUR” Father, and to “MY” God and “YOUR” God.
That’s what you should have posted Gene!
WHY DIDN’T YOU DO THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE?
YOU SIMPLY PRODUCED YOUR OWN WORDS TO MISGUIDE THE READERS AND
PUSH THEM TO ACCEPT A HALF-TRUTH, AND A HALF-TRUTH IS MORE A LIE AND IRONICALLY IT LOOKS LIKE THE FULL TRUTH!
Read again what you said back on page 1202.
I am going to my father “AND” your Father, my God “AND” your God”.
Have a Look at them Gene and PONDER while reading THE SCRIPTURES hereunder,
(A) PREVIOUS POST: I AM GOING TO MY FATHER..
(B) CURRENT POST: I ASCEND TO MY FATHER..
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying:
ALL POWER is given to me in heaven and in earth.
Matthew 19:28 ….And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when
the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory,….
John17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;
and I am glorified in them.
John6:62 If then you shall see the Son of man
ascend up
where he was before?
Notice, in the above, ASCEND UP is a clear reference to heaven!
While ASCEND TO it is not a clear reference to heaven! NO?
John 17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had,
before the world was, with thee.
I AM NOT GOING TO COMMENT ANY FURTHER FOR NOW!
INSTEAD, I WANT YOU TO TELL ME:
WHAT IS THE DEFINITION AND DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO?
TO BE CLEAR BETWEEN:
I AM GOING TO …..
AND
I ASCEND TO ….
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Funny what happens when people who are shown their thinking is incorrect; they start looking for other things to argue about, all the while ignoring the truth that just slapped them in the face.
Explain how “going to” or “ascending to” became the primary focus when “My Father, your Father; My God, your God” was the prior focus? (Hopefully we figured out from my previous post what Christ was actually saying; God, the Almighty, is in fact the same for both Christ and us) .
One needs to channel that kind of energy into studying God’s Word verses defending one’s religion or focusing on proving themselves right. It is okay to admit a mistake; then again, that idea goes against human nature…
Hi Gene and All,
You: FIRST notice he called his disciples his “brothers”.
Gene, what you should notice is:
WHY DID JESUS CALL HIS DISCIPLES, WHO WERE BOTH MALES AND FEMALES,
ONLY “MY BRETHREN”!
ARE YOU IN A POSITION TO FIGURE OUT
WHAT THE TRUTH IS BEHIND IT?
MARY MAGDALENE WAS ALSO JESUS’ DISCIPLE! NO?
Second he say’s, his Father is their Father, and his God and their God , who is the exact same being.
Now just read
Isaiah 9:6For a CHILD IS BORN to us,
and a son is given to us,
and the government is upon his shoulder:
Ponder on the above Gene, THOUGH I BELIEVE IT’S OF NO USE, NEVERTHELESS, MAYBE ONE OF THOSE WHO IS IN HARMONY WITH YOUR BLINDNESS MIGHT HAVE A GO, and
they start looking for other things to argue about, all the while ignoring the truth that just slapped them in the face,
and are shown their thinking is incorrect;
let’s keep on reading the TRUTH!
and his name shall be called,
Wonderful,
Counsellor,
God the Mighty,
the Father of the world to come,
the Prince of Peace.
Now throughout Jesus’ teaching,
MYSTERIOUSLY, AS GOD WAS IN JESUS, HIS OWN WORD MADE FLESH He used both the title of
MY FATHER and
THE FATHER. and also the title of
MY GOD and
GOD
Let’s just only take this scripture in WHICH DEFINITELY SHOWS THAT THERE’S A HIDDEN PERCEPTION IN THIS REGARD!
John14:1 LET not your heart be troubled. You believe in
God, believe also in me. 2In
my Father’s house there are many mansions. If not, I would have told you: because I go to prepare a place for you.
6Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to
the Father, but by me.
7If you had known me, you would without doubt have known
my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him, and you have seen him.
8Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us
the Father, and it is enough for us. 9Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth
the Father also. How sayest thou, Shew us
the Father? 10Do you not believe, that I am in
the Father, and
the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But
the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works. 11Believe you not that I am in
the Father, and
the Father in me? 12Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do. 13Because I go to
the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask
the Father in my name, that will I do: that
the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do.
15If you love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will ask
the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever.
20In that day you shall know, that I am in
my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me, shall be loved of
my Father: and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
23Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and
my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not, keepeth not my words. And the word which you have heard, is not mine; but
the Father’s who sent me.
25These things have I spoken to you, abiding with you. 26But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom
the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.
28You have heard that I said to you: I go away, and I come unto you. If you loved me, you would indeed be glad, because I go to
the Father: for
the Father is greater than I. 31But that the world may know, that I love
the Father: and as
the Father hath given me commandment, so do I: Arise, let us go hence.
Desire truth, said:
Explain how “going to” or “ascending to” became the primary focus
when “My Father, your Father; My God, your God” was the prior focus?
That is perfectly right, IN A WAY THOUGH,
but precisely the words in relation to those titles of MY GOD and MY FATHER, ACTUALLY THE MYSTERY IS REVEALED!
THOSE TITLES ALL BY THEMSELVES MEAN NOTHING OR ONLY
ONE SIMPLE THING, WHAT ACTUALLY THEY REPRESENT!
LIKE IN THE CASE ABOVE, THE AMOUNT OF THOSE TITLES ABOVE MEAN NOTHING
ON THEIR OWN!
Now if I counted right there are 19 as THE FATHER, and only
5 as MY FATHER!
Now I leave you to it
WHILE CONCENTRATING ON ISAIAH 9:6 AGAIN HEREUNDER:
the government is upon his shoulder:
God the Mighty,
the Father of the world to come,
Now eliminate all the words and leave out the titles of
GOD and FATHER all by themselves!
What would you GET?
HALF TRUTH! but we are only interested in
THE FULL TRUTH
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel…….pay attention ok, Jesus said (not me)……….Luke 7:2…..”When you pray, say, “OUR” FATHER, which art in heaven, Hollowed be “Thy” name. “THY” KINGDOM come, ‘THY” will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Who was the “OUR” representing there?, was it not “both” Jesus and us? Also read verses 3 and 4. Jesus was applying everything he was saying to himself equally as to us, by using the words. “US”, and “OUR”.
COMMON SENSE , should tell you that, but because you are so “INDOCTRINATED ” into false teachings, it causes you to ignore the oblivious truth written in our scriptures.
Repent Carmel!
peace and love to you and yours Carmel………gene
Gene
You
Luke 7:2…..”When you pray, say, “OUR” FATHER, which art in heaven, Hollowed be “Thy” name. “THY” KINGDOM come, ‘THY” will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Me
OUR” FATHER, which art 👉 in heaven,
Now Jesus said( NOT me) :
👉For I came down from heaven👈, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
[39] And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.What is “the HEAVEN” where is the Father where JESUS comes from? PLEASE….
@ Carmel,
How interesting that you would bring up Isa 9; I am currently in the middle of studying this section of Isaiah (7-12,13).
@ Berean,
You still haven’t explained what it means to “come down from heaven” nor answered what truths I have rejected.
You still haven’t explained what it means to “come down from heaven” nor answered what truths I have rejected.
Me
👇
[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
[9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)HEAVEN
👇 👆
👇 👆
👇 👆
OUR EARTH
You
what truths I have rejected.
Me
👉 #943349
Hi, Gene,
You:
Carmel…….pay attention ok, Jesus said (not me)……….Luke 7:2…..
”When you pray, say,
AGAIN, Gene, YOU ARE A
GENIOUS!
WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN THIS FORUM?
YOU ARE SIMPLY WASTING YOUR TIME!
Me: Now, what does the above introduction tell you Gene?
It clearly tells you that Jesus is MORE TEACHING HOW TO PRAY THAN HE HIMSELF IS PRAYING!
JESUS WHENEVER HE PRAYED MOSTLY WENT ALL BY HIMSELF!
Did you ever ask a simple question WHY IT WAS VITAL FOR JESUS TO TEACH HOW HUMANS IN FLESH AND BLOOD FOR
THE FIRST-EVER TIME
were to pray to THEIR APPROPRIATE
GOD AND FATHER?
IT WOULD BE QUITE INTERESTING IF YOU WERE TO FIND A SCRIPTURE FROM THE OT. WHERE THE ORDINARY JEWS, SUPPOSED THE PEOPLE OF THE ONLY TRUE GOD, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE PROPHETS, EVER CALLED GOD THEIR FATHER.
I JUST WANT TO REMIND YOU THAT THE JEWS WERE TERRORIZED BY GOD NEVER MIND CALL HIM FATHER AND LOVE HIM.
AFTER ALL, YOU SAID THAT IF ANYTHING SAID AND IS NOT IN LINE WITH THE OT. IT WOULD BE A LIE.
GO AHEAD AND FIND THE SCRIPTURE PLEASE, WHICH SHOWS THAT THE JEWS EVER CALLED GOD THEIR FATHER!
NOW Gene let’s see why it was vital for Jesus to teach
HUMANS FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME
HOW TO PRAY TO
THEIR GOD AND FATHER!
“OUR” FATHER, which art in heaven, Hollowed be “Thy” name. “THY” KINGDOM come, ‘THY” will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Who was the “OUR” representing there?,
was it not “both” Jesus and us?
Me: NO Gene, as I said above
JESUS WAS MORE TEACHING HOW TO PRAY THAN HE HIMSELF WAS PRAYING!
TO MAKE IT CLEAR TO YOU:
LET’S SAY YOU ARE TEACHING A YOU KIDS HOW TO ASK POLITELY SOMETHING TO THE TEACHER AND YOU SAY:
Thus, therefore, shall you ASK YOUR TEACHER:
PLEASE, TEACHER, MAY WE GO TO……..
Gene, does the WE include you in your teaching?
Yes or no please
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel……I would be teaching my children “exactly” what I did . YOUR words turns Jesus into a hypocrite , why would he ever tell us to do what he doesn’t himself do?
Jesus said (not me)… “I AM THE WAY” THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, no man comes unto the Father but “by”, (GREEK “DIA”, which means the exact way JESUS DID) me”. Our relationship with GOD THE FATHER, must become “EXACTLY” the same as JESUS’ IS.Jesus said (not me)……“To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, “EVEN” (the same way) I have “ALSO” overcome, and sit down with my Father in his throne. We must overcome (EXACTLY) the same way JESUS “ALSO” HAD TO OVERCAME, and that was through, his love, and Faith and obedience to GOD THE FATHER. The one and “only” true God. Remember what Jesus said (not me) , ….”this is eternal life, that they may come to “KNOW” YOU , the “ONLY” true GOD , and Jesus Christ how you have sent” .
Carmel do you know who the “ONLY TRUE GOD” is? It certainly is not Jesus according to Jesus’ own words> But then if you “truly” believed Jesus, you would know that wouldn’t you?
peace and love to you and yours Carmel……..gene
Desire Truth……..Check this out and see what you think.
21th Century Reformation . I have found them quite enlightening , like to know what you think.
peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………gene
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