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@ Berean,
So the truth is you can’t reconcile Deut 18 to a preexistent Christ; so are now choosing to ignore it.
Prov 30:4, did your read the chapter? I don’t understand why Jesus has to be injected into everything read in the old testament? Are you sure you’re an Adventist, starting to sound like a Southern Baptist!
Beginning in verse 1 we find a man Agur is speaking to two other (Ithiel and Ucal) and claiming to the most ignorant man. Then he proceeds to ask a series of questions in verse 4:
Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended?
Who has gathered the wind in his fists?
Who has bound the waters in his garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you know?
Agur is asking these men what man do they know who has ascended or descended from heaven, who is able to hold the wind in their fists, contain waters with a garment, or create a world. Then he asks for the name or their child’s name of the one who has done this. Agur may not be the smartest man, but he does know that God did all this and man cannot.
I did an experiment to see how another would respond to what they thought was being said in verse 4. After reading just verse 4 they responded with it sounds like God and a reference to Jesus. Then reading verse 1 to verse 6, they changed their mind, coming to the same conclusion as stated above.
We need to stop making this so difficult!! Throw your doctrine out, get rid of your religion, and embrace what God has to offer.
Berean,
YOU: Proverbs 30:4 IS saying THAT God hath a Son BEFORE THIS ONE IS MADE FLESH.
ME: It says no such thing it’s speaking of prophecy that aligns perfectly with 1 Chronicles 17 and other passages.
Prov 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?
“Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended“, this is prophecy of the Son of Man who would be exalted to God’s right hand and would also descend from heaven to fulfill God’s will, the will of our God who establishes all the ends of the earth. The son spoken of is also of prophecy in this verse and elsewhere.
1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
Berean, tell me which biblical facts below it is that you have a problem with?
A Son of Man, a man of the seed of David, God promised He would be a Father unto him.
A Son of Man, a man of the seed of David, God promised to settle him into His house and His kingdom forevermore.
A man must be born of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom.
The fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth.
The Son of Man had the Spirit of God come to abode in him and was called to righteousness.
The Son of Man ascended to heaven and sat down at God’s right hand.
The Son of Man is going to descend in the glory of the Father to fulfill His will.
The Son of Man will descend with God’s Spirit upon him where he will judge and rule the world in righteousness.
You
Beginning in verse 1 we find a man Agur is speaking to two others (Ithiel and Ucal) and claiming to the most ignorant man. Then he proceeds to ask a series of questions in verse 4:
me
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?
and what is his son’s name,
if thou canst tell?
The time is présent tense.
WHEN THIS QUESTION IS ASKED, THE SON OF GOD EXISTS.
Agur certainly expects a response, but the text does not mention a response from the listeners.
This does not mean that Agur does not know the name of the Son of God.In any case the question is posed, and IT IS POSED IN THE PRESENT TENSE.
IT’S NOT WHAT HIS NAME WILL BE, BUT WHAT IS HIS NAME?
@ Berean,
Are you really being this stubborn? When you ask someone their name, are you asking in the present or future tense? Agur is asking if either of them know of someone who can do all he is asking and to tell him their name.
Here’s a little food for thought. Why is Agur also asking for this man’s childrens name. I may be reading into this slightly, but it fits; is it possible the man is dead and Agur wants to speak to the man’s children to verify his accomplishments? Remember, this is a proverb in a book of wisdom.
Read this translation:
4 Who has gone up to heaven, and come down? Who has gathered the winds in His bosom? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has dominion of all the ends of the earth? What is His name? Or what is the name of His children? (AB)
OR
4 Who ascended into the heaven, and came down? Who brought together the winds in his bosom? Who bundled up waters in his cloak? Who holds all the extremities of the earth? What name is given to him? or what name to his children that you should know? (ABP)
OR
4 Who has ascended to heaven and come down?
Who has gathered the wind in the hollow of his hand?
Who has wrapped water in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name and what is the name of his child?
For surely you know. (LEB)Do you still get Jesus out of these verses? Pick up another translation or six and start studying like a Berean!
That’s one of the problems, you’re using “corrupt” versions of the Bible, and yes, unless you seriously investigate this, you run the risk of getting deeper and deeper into error. I gave you the link of the book “the battle of the Bibles”, I strongly advise you to read it.
https://temcat.com/005-Bible-versions/Bible-Battle/BibleBattleTOC.htm
🙏
BEREAN, you said……….”That’s one of the problems, you’re using “corrupt” versions of the Bible, and yes, unless you seriously investigate this, you run the risk of getting deeper and deeper into error. I gave you the link of the book “the battle of the Bibles”, I strongly advise you to read it.”
AND I say , get the “SPIRIT OF TRUTH” , and you will come to realize the truth and the error’s , no matter what Bible you use> IMO
Peace and love to you and yours Berean……..gene
Gene
The Spirit of Truth does not ignore the Word of God.
The two work together.
For the Sword of the Spirit (of Truth) is the Word of God.🙏
@ Berean,
Who made you the authority and what qualifications do you have to determine which scripture translation is correct or not? What is the perfect scripture then? I must know! This way I can put away the twelve I use daily on my computer and can stop using the other 60+ I reference online. Tell me the one I should use so I can put the rest away!
The honest answer is these translations don’t fit what you believe and are therefore “corrupt”. When will people wake up!
The link you posted about the “Battle of the Bibles”, did you read the end? It’s kind of an insult to the Seventh Day Adventist church: “Due to the request of the Trinitarian Bible society we are unable to provide information about them here as they do not wish to be associated with Seventh-day Adventists”. Bit of a poke in the eye don’t you think? Why don’t they want to be associated with your faith? This simply confirms what I have said about the church not being unified.
Why are you always trying to make Jesus appear different then we are? Jesus is the “first of many brethren to be born into the kingdom of God”, not the only one to be
Wrong!
If he existed in the form of God, then he is not like us. But if he further emptied himself and came in the flesh and lived as a baby, infant, teenager, man, then he is indeed like us. so your accusation is incorrect. Further, since he is back in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos and we will eventually have a body like his, then we will be like him as he existed in the form of God. Read what Paul teaches us about bodies. First the physical then the spiritual.
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.
I don’t mind if you do not believe in the New Testament, but at least be honest and admit it.
Hi Desire Truth,
Going back through and reading some posts and I appreciate your closer examination of Proverbs 30!
Proclaimer…….Jesus is both, firstborn, from the dead and firstborn into the kingdom of God, how is that hard for you to understand? Did JESUS not say, (not me). “You must be born again”? Even so he had to be born again also.
He is firstborn from the dead – Good.
He is first born of all creation is talking about the creation not the Kingdom of God in this verse.
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.…
The word(s) for Kingdom of God is NOT mentioned in these verses. Another error Gene.
@ Jodi,
I believe God the Father has made understanding what HE said so simple and man’s religion has complicated everything. Hold fast, you too Gene, I believe God is removing religious blinders from people in preparation of something coming that will shake this world to its core. We are but a small fleeting speck on this planet and only have a short time to get it right. It’s not a highway to “heaven”…
Hi Berean,
I guess it’s time for some yes or no answers so I can understand your thought process. I will present the scriptures that I am specifically drawing my questions out from. Please feel free to elaborate on your yes or no answer or raise issue with the question I presented itself.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Yes or No
- Jesus (the Son of God) and his true believers are all made children of God in the same way, by being born of God?
- He who is born of God cannot sin and thus he is perfect in righteousness?
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Ephesians 5:9 The fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth.
3. God putting His Spirit within you causes you to not sin but rather walk in His statutes and keep His judgement?
4. Being born of God is God putting His Spirit within you.
Scripture wins IMO. The opinions and doctrines of men are many. They will pass away along with this world.
Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
@ Proclaimer,
What was the gospel, the “good news”, Christ taught? Wasn’t it the coming of the Kingdom of God? Was it not Christ who entered the Kingdom of God?
I haven’t had the time to fully talk about Col 1:15-18 as it becomes a lengthy discussion to dissect the verses. I will say, there is a period in most translations at the end of verse 17 and a period will end a thought. So to pick up or continue on or repeat a previous thought is not uncommon in scripture. So to say “Firstborn of all creation” or “Firstborn from the dead”, Paul is repeating himself and stating the same thing, only worded slightly differently. Is it false to claim Christ is the firstborn of creation, to be first to be born of creation into a glorious state? Who else has been raised from the dead and is seated at the right hand of God? By being the “firstborn of the dead”, was Christ not raised from the dead into a glorious state? Is this not saying the same thing? What about in 1 Corinthians 15:20 (NASB) “But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep”. Are not all these saying the same thing?
If they are not, please enlighten.
Hi Proclaimer,
When reading John 17,
Image Jesus was a man, for he was a man.
Now image Jesus believed that he was the man of YHVH’s prophecies and thus knew well Isaiah 11, 46, 53, 1 Chronicles 17, Psalms 2, 8, 89 and many more concerning himself.
Now remember Jesus’s words, “And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead.”
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
“I” as in the Son of Man of God’s word before the world was, the word of God that Jesus, the Son of Man knew concerning himself, that had been with God also spoken by the prophets since the world began.
Luke 24: 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Math 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the BEGINNING, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Proclaimer, you continue to refuse to apply scripture directly where it needs to be applied to. In John 17:5 we are reading the anointed man Jesus declaring his faith in YHVH’s word, YHVH’s purpose from the beginning, from before the world even began that had concerned himself (A MAN).
You’ll say that you don’t deny this scripture or that scripture, but if you don’t apply them all becomes vanity.
Hi Proclaimer,
Please read and appropriately respond.
YOU to Gene:
Wrong!
If he existed in the form of God, then he is not like us. But if he further emptied himself and came in the flesh and lived as a baby, infant, teenager, man, then he is indeed like us. so your accusation is incorrect. Further, since he is back in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos and we will eventually have a body like his, then we will be like him as he existed in the form of God. Read what Paul teaches us about bodies. First the physical then the spiritual.
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.
I don’t mind if you do not believe in the New Testament, but at least be honest and admit it.
ME:
You are making a point based upon other points that aren’t agreed upon.
“he” who existed in the form of God was the ANOINTED MAN JESUS.
The man, Jesus of Nazareth, became not like any of us as he was the only mortal human to have been anointed with the Spirit of God without measure, the only man YHVH called to righteousness who thus could then be the only man to fulfill God’s covenant.
Don’t forget Proclaimer that God had declared the end from the beginning and with God since the beginning was His promise to call one man to fulfill His will, His purpose. Don’t forget by one man’s righteousness and obedience we have received grace and salvation.
1 Corinthians 15:
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Proclaimer, is this about a body, or is this about God being in that body, whatever that body might be?
Those that are LED by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God, once again, is this about a body, or about a body that is being led by the Spirit, whatever that body might be?
Jesus said that a man must be born of the Spirit to enter God’s kingdom and we are told that the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth. Once again is this about a body or that body being born of the Spirit, whatever that body might be?
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Natural/psuchikes, having the nature and characteristics of the breath
the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes
the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passionSpiritual/pneumatikos, belonging to the Divine Spirit
of God the Holy Spirit
one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of GodWhat happened upon Jesus being raised from the dead? He was flesh and bones and he received the promised Holy Spirit.
What did God promise, “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Basic biblical facts.
From the beginning God declared that He would call one man to fulfill all His will.
A man was resurrected from the dead, received the promised Spirit and entered his glory appearing to many.
A Son of Man was exalted to God’s right hand.
A Son of Man is returning in our Father’s glory.
A man of the fruit of David’s loins will rule in righteousness with YHVH’s Spirit upon him sitting on his father David’s throne being a Son of God as he is led by the Spirit of God. He is a son of Jesse who will bring forth peace upon the earth being the man who God ordained to judge the world where he will reward many with God’s promise of a new heart of flesh that is filled with God’s Spirit to the cause of righteousness, where thus God will therefore be ALL IN ALL.
Read the book I recommended to you and try to understand what is going on in this conflict between Christ and Satan.
🙏
Hi Jodi
You
“1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Yes or No
Jesus (the Son of God) and his true believers are all made children of God in the same way, by being born of God?”
Me
I already answered this topic, but….!!!???
I believe that HE WHO DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN, where the Father is (John 6:38)was ALREADY SON OF GOD.(Proverbs 30:4)
But for our salvation WAS MADE FLESH (John 1:14)
It is therefore by becoming the Son of man by the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD that he ALSO became the SON of God IN A NEW SENSE…AND BECAUSE OF HIS PURE AND SPOTLESS LIFE, HIS DEATH AND HIS RESURRECTION, HE WAS DECLARED THE SON OF GOD WITH POWER.THIS IS WHAT PAUL SAYS IN ROMANS 1:3,4
[3] Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
[4] And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:Paul and the Ethiopian after their baptism preached that Jesus is the SON OF GOD.
It was after the resurrection of Christ:the ethiopian
Acts.8
[37] And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.Paul
Acts.9
[20] And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.🙏
@ Berean,
As I skimmed through the suggested book, the main take away is the King James is the only proper bible written and other translations are only good when they agree with it. Hate to break it to you, the KJV has its own flaws and in no way is it “perfect”; which is why I have 12 translations I use daily and reference another 60+ online. This way I can see from a larger perspective of what is trying to be conveyed; are these translations in agreement or are certain biases being revealed.
One major issue I have with the KJV is its heavy bias toward the trinity AND Jesus being the creator. If Jesus is the creator, that means he is God; If Jesus is God, then Paul is a liar and every letter he wrote must be immediately removed from scripture. (I can hear the gasps already!)
Another point to ponder, why do we have or need so many different translations of scripture; is it to add to the confusion and deception within the church?
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