- This topic has 25,891 replies, 115 voices, and was last updated 5 hours, 10 minutes ago by
.
- Posts
@ DesireTruth
It seems to me that I asked you a question which you did not answer.
About the origin of the Son of God in relation to Micah 5:2
I asked you to tell me what you thought of it.
here…i’m waiting
THANKSBerean…….Jesus said (not me)…..“this is eternal life, that they might know “YOU”, the “ONLY” “TRUE” GOD, and Jesus Christ who you have sent”.
And again scriptures says (not me) …….“but unto us there is but “ONE” God, and one “MEDIATOR”, between God and men, the “MAN” Jesus Christ”.
And again scripture says (not me) …..“GOD IS NOT A “MAN”, that he should lie, nor a “SON OF MAN”, that he should repent”.
And again Jesus said (not me)…….“the Son of Man, can do “NOTHING” of himself”.
And again Jesus said (not me)…….“the words I am telling you are “NOT”, MY WORDS, but the words of him who sent me”.
Question is do you “TRULY” believe what Jesus AND SCRIPTURE says? , facts is you don’t believe Jesus, nor scripture, nor God the Father either.
Peace and love to you and yours……..gene
@ Berean,
Our understanding of Micah 5:2 is quite different. This passage for you is evidence to the “preexistence” of Christ. What it actually speaks of is a ruler who’s origins were foreknown from the beginning.
The Aramaic translation puts this verse in another perspective:
And you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you are little among the thousands of towns of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth a ruler to govern Israel; whose goings forth have been predicted from of old, from eternity.
The “goings forth” means origins and some translations render it this way. You say this is a forward looking backward, when it is actually pointing to the future. The “origins” have been predicted (prophesied?) from old, the “origins” are from eternity/everlasting (from God – Habakkuk 1:12).
If Christ preexisted, please explain I Pet 1:19-20:
19 but with precious blood, as of a faultless and pure lamb, the blood of Christ; 20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of times for your sake,
Peter didn’t say Christ existed, he says Christ was foreknown; the Greek foreknow is proginōskō (Strong’s G4267) and is the combination of two words from (4253) /pró, “before” and (1097) /ginṓskō, “to know” and used in the NT of “God pre-knowing all choices – and doing so without pre-determining them”.
This same foreknowing is in Rom 8:26: God foreknew those called according to his purpose and who would conform to the image of his Son. So did everyone preexist in heaven with God that he foreknew?
Did Jeremiah preexist in heaven (Jer 1:4-5) because God knew him before he was formed in the womb? Of course not! This “foreknowing” of God is his “pre-known” plan. So why wouldn’t we apply this same understanding to Christ? Christ was part of God’s perfect plan from the foundations of the world as Peter states, not that he preexisted with God.
@desirethruth
You
The “goings forth” means origins and some translations render it this way. You say this is a forward looking backward, when it is actually pointing to the future.
Me
The Micah’s Prophecy
show two things
1) an event that will come after the time of Prophet Micah…..👉
the birth of the Son of God in the flesh 👉
….”yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;”2) an event that took place in eternity
past 👈whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. 👈
Hebrews 1:
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?It refers to the begetting of the Son by the Father.
This also applies to the resurrection of the Son, quoted in Acts.
1Peter1:19-20
I do not rely on these verses for the origin of Jesus but on Micah, John 1, Hebrews 1, Colossians1, Philippians 2
Peter tells us simply that the Father had predestined his Son to be the Lamb of God who would offer himself as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.
We believe the Son was willing all along and offered himself when Adam and Eve sinned.
Without this offering / intervention of the Son with our first parents, they would have died the same day. We see the Son already there as mediator between GOD the Father and men.
We believe it was the Son instead of God who spoke to our first parents in the Garden of Eden and made them garments of skins, signifying physical and spiritual protection.
Well, I won’t say more for now…Good study under the gaze of God.
🙏
@ Berean,
So you are explicitly disregarding the verse in I Peter because it doesn’t agree with your theology? Perplexed how one can ignore what “foreknown/foreordain” means, especially when it comes from a disciple that Christ walked, talked, and taught for 3.5 years? You say the Jewish understanding is a must, but I’m starting to think it really isn’t as important to you as you claim.
You quote Heb 1:5 as evidence to preexisting Christ, then why the future tense “will be” and “shall be” if Christ was already in heaven? Shouldn’t it read “I am” and “you are”?
The chapters you sited, please include verses so we are on the same page…not going to guess.
By the way, I too am waiting for you to answer my questions from the earlier post. Will you extend the same courtesy? Please scripturally support Jesus is our creator and “had” to be “in order” to be our redeemer.
@ DesireTruth
So you are explicitly disregarding the verse in I Peter because it doesn’t agree with your theology?
Me
No why???
The Father predestined his Son when he was not yet BEGOTTEN in HEAVEN. What I also believe is that the Son OFFERED HIMSELF as a sacrifice for sin.
The Father did not force His Son’s agency. It is a freewill offering of the Son.
Can you admit this?While I write in French and go through Google translate, the translation may not always be “great” and it takes me longer.
More latter
🙏
Philippians 2
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature, God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.There is a lot in scripture to explain away. But some here do that anyway. You can understand that some scriptures are difficult as they may have a cultural meaning for example. But this theme that these scriptures teach is prolific. Explaining it all away seems tantamount to saying the New Testament is just plain wrong.
John 1
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.‘John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!“Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.Hebrews 1
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.Colossians 1:15-18
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”@ Berean,
You said, “I do not rely on these verses for the origins of Jesus…” Even though it states in virtually every translation Christ was “foreknown”, “foreordained”, or “before known”. By rejecting the content of these verses and the meaning of foreknown, it would mean those in Rom 8:26 all existed in heaven before beginning this life on Earth too. I will wager you will reject that understanding; yet, will apply it to Christ.
Still waiting for scripture on Jesus being our creator to be our redeemer.@ Proclaimer,
Thank you!! This list of verses is what I was looking for. Now we have a basis to start from to see if Christ preexisted or not. One thing must be pointed out with your verses, they are all new testament; where are the old testament verses? Micah is one verse, shouldn’t there be at least two or three “witnesses” to bring a “claim”. If Christ preexisted, the old testament will be filled with references to that fact. Remember, the “new testament” didn’t exist for about 300 years after the early church.To all,
Do a word study on “son of man”. Begin in the old testament and go through the new; don’t make it a long study (it’s not), but it is an enlightening one. Can’t wait to hear your thoughts!Desire truth…….Welcome to my and Jodi’s world, These people haven’t a clue what scriptures actually say, they rely on the lies of modern “christanity” inturpitations and conform to the Prophesy of Paul, in “2ths2”, they have turned the “man” Jesus into their God . Just as Pual said they would, they have turned the “image” of him into a man of sin, by breaking the first commandment “you shall have no God beside me, you shall not make any “image ” of me in heaven above or earth beneath”.
They bow and worship him as their creator, making him into a God , creating, “a man of Sin”
Jesus is the “ONLY “MAN” who has taken his seat in the temple of God so far , and they have turned him into their God, By saying he created everything in existence.
They have rejected nearly all scriptures in the Old Testement, and established the false religion of the Greek Platonic idololigies , they are idolaters, and will be rejected not only by God the Father, but by Jesus himself at his return, just as “2 ths2”, says. It’s all there for those who have “eyes to see”.
Peace and love to you and yours, Desire Truth………. gene
Micah is one verse, shouldn’t there be at least two or three “witnesses” to bring a “claim”. If Christ preexisted, the old testament will be filled with references to that fact.
Interesting thought. Does this mean we reject the New Testament? I don’t think you are saying that. But rejecting these scriptures is tantamount to doing that. I believe in the firstborn Son who was with God before the cosmos precisely because I believe these New Testament scriptures.
So how do we explain the lack of this information in the Old Testament? Because the New Testament is new compared to the Old. It contains further revelation. It reveals the Christ. Some things in the New were mysteries before the New. Case in hand:
The “mystery of Christ” pertains specifically to the incorporation of the Gentiles as “co-heirs” alongside the Jews. This concept is referred to as a mystery because it was not revealed to humanity in past eras, it was concealed by God, and remained a secret, but was unveiled. Further, we also read that God sent his only begotten into the world. The one that God created the cosmos through and for. It reveals that he emptied himself, came in the flesh, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and is now with God in the glory he had with him before the cosmos.
What we read is God paying the highest price for our redemption by sacrificing the same one whom he made everything for in the beginning.
All this is a huge jump in revelation compared to the Old Testament. For such reasons and others, some reject the New Testament.
But I think the plan of God to save mankind is wonderful. This plan was hatched even before there was a cosmos. I guess that God knew that eventually free will would give rise to a rebellion. An inevitability given eternity.
Gene
You
They have rejected nearly all scriptures in the Old Testement, and established the false religion of the Greek Platonic idololigies , they are idolaters, and will be rejected not only by God the Father, but by Jesus himself at his return, just as “2 ths2”, says. It’s all there for those who have “eyes to see”.
Me
You have not PROVED ONCE BY THE WORD OF GOD WHAT YOU AFFIRM THERE.
SO PLEASE KEEP SILENCE BEFORE THE ETERNAL YAHVEH AND TRY TO LEARN WHAT GOD HAS BEEN TRYING FOR YOU TO DISCOVER FOR A LONG TIME THROUGH ADMITTED IMPERFECT INSTRUMENTS.🙏
You
You said, “I do not rely on these verses for the origins of Jesus…” Even though it states in virtually every translation Christ was “foreknown”, “foreordained”, or “before known”. By rejecting the content of these verses and the meaning of foreknown, it would mean those in Rom 8:26 all existed in heaven before beginning this life on Earth too. I will wager you will reject that understanding; yet, will apply it to Christ.
Still waiting for scripture on Jesus being our creator to be our redeemer.Me
I know Jesus was predestined and I believe what Pierre says about it. Being predestined does not exclude the fact in the case of Jesus that he existed before the foundation of the world, in Eternity Past when there was nothing to count time.
<span style=”color: #3366ff;”>And now, o father, gliffy thou me with thine own self 👉with the glory that i had with thee before the world was.👈 (John 17: 5)</span>
……..
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
foreordained
from pro -pro 4253 and ginwskw -ginosko 1097 ; to know beforehand, ie foresee:–foreknow (ordain), know (before).
….
So God has always planned that his divine Son would be intended to be the savior of the world in our flesh.
Also, the fact that Jesus went down from heaven (John 6:38) where he was in glory with the Father since the beginning (John1: 1 and John 17: 5) who sent him to make his will (of the Father ) proves that he is not of this world and that he has pre -existed at Heaven with the Father.
John 1: 1 -3 tells us that at the beginning, “The Word” (the Son) was with (The) God, he was God and that everything was done by him and that nothing that was done is was done without him.A point that I was going to forget, it’s proverb 8
This is the second witnesses for the eternity of the Son.
The Lord Possessed Me in the Beginning of His Way, Before 👈 His Works of Old.
[23] I was set up
from 👉everlasting👈,From the Beginning, or Ever (Before) The Earth was.
[24] when👉 there we no depths👈,
👉 I was Busht Forth👈;
👉When there we no fountains Abounding with water. …
….Without this condition (let him be God, that is to say having all the divine attributes whose omnipotence) he could not be the Savior of the world.
In fact, the father put everything in the hands of his only begotten son .
CREATION
REDEMPTION
JUDGEMENTDo we not like to save, restore what we create or do with our hands … Yes?
This is what the father did for us by his Son and that he continues to do
👉Till We All Come in the Unity of the Faith, and of the Knowledge of the Son of God, Unto A Perfect Man, Unto the Measure of the Stature of the Fulness of Christ: (Ephesians 4:13)
And it is he who will
And the very God of Peace Sanctify you wholly; And I Pray God your Whole Spirit and Soul and Body be Preserved Blameless Unto The Coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
.
Faithful is he that caleth you, who also will do it. (1Thess.5: 22.23🙏
🙏
Correction
This IS NOT I was Busht Forth ;
But When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water./Proverbs 8v.24/
This is the second witnesses for the eternity of the Son.
The Lord Possessed Me in the Beginning of His Way, Before His Works of Old.
[23] I was set up
from everlasting ,From the Beginning, or Ever (Before) The Earth was.
[24] when there we no depths ,
I was Busht Forth ;
When there we no fountains Abounding with water. …
Wouldn’t that be a better description for being the first to be with God as opposed to always existing with God? Somebody had to be first right? Who was that? Someone very special I imagine. Perhaps the most special besides God himself.
Wouldn’t that be a better description for being the first to be with God as opposed to always existing with God? Somebody had to be first right? Who was that? Someone very special I imagine. Perhaps the most special besides God himself.
God, to my knowledge, has no origin, He has always existed and will always exist because he is immortal according to Paul a Timothy / 1 Tim.6.16
The Son of God has an origin
In the BIGINNING, the Son who was with God and who was God, of the same nature as the Father, therefore has a nature that is beginningless, but had a beginning when he was begotten of the Father in the days of eternity.
Therefore a divine nature, eternal essence, without beginning inherited from the Father but a person, personality which had a beginning during the begetting by the Father.
And so, of course, the Son, in the days of eternity, not being a creature, is the only and first to be with God.Paul to the COLOSSIANS tells us 👉 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
I understand him, the first born in Heaven in the days of eternity before all things and living beings were created.
….all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.🙏
Proclaimer…….Wisdom is not a person, it is an “ATRIBUTE” , one of the seven Spirits, of God, trying to make it out to be Jesus is simply forcing the text to say what in fact it does not say or even hint at.
This is what you are doing with many other scriptures also, like thinking when Jesus said, “before” Abraham, I am, as meaning that Jesus was saying that he “existed”, as a live being before Abraham “existed”. Simply not true, Jesus did not exist as a actual “living” being until he was born on this earth , even though he was Prophesied by The prophets to come into his existence. He was in the beginning in the plan and will of ALMIGHTY GOD, from the start of his whole creation of this earth and everything in it.
Your inability to understand this, only proves to me, you lack of the “SPIRIT OF TRUTH”. abiding in you, or you would know this.
You have three bearing true witness here right now, listen to us, at least consider what we are telling you and others here.
Peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer. ……….gene
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
