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Jodi……..It’seems not about the truth to them, it about their false religious ideas, their not even intellegent enough to understand that what they say is completely again what scriptures in the old Testement says, they create complete contradictions, in our scriptures, And don’t even know they are.
But the the true way like we are explaining scriptures, does not cause contradictions of any scriptures.
They are simply the blind leading the blind, stumbling over themselves constantly, never coming to understand the real truth. SAD!
Peace and love to you and yours Jodi………..gene
Hi Jodi
You
16 For by reason of him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by reason of him, and for him:
Jesus didn’t MAKE himself lord nor MAKE himself a king of kings, YHVH our Father did, so it’s nonsense to insist that “dia” means “by means of” in verse 16.
Me
COLOSSIANS 1
V. 16
16
oti en autw ektisqh ta panta ta en toiV ouranoiV kai ta epi thV ghV ta orata kai ta aorata eite qronoi eite kuriothteV eite arcai eite exousiai ta panta di autou kai eiV auton ektistaioti 👉en 👈autw ….because in him…
👉”en” 👈do NOT means 👉by reason of
👇
1722
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), ie a relation of rest (intermediate between and 1537) ; “in,” at, (up-)on, by, etc.:–about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+ all means), for (… sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-)on, (open-)ly , X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, (speedi-)ly, X that, X there(-in, -on), through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), under, when , where(-with), while, with(-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition. eiV – eis 1519
Much more latter if God want
🙏
Hi Jodi,
You: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the BEGINNING, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence (to be first).
Me: In the above scripture, you gave importance to
TWO PARTICULAR TASKS DIRECTLY BY JESUS AS A SPIRIT, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, to be clear
JESUS IS THE BEGINNING and THE PREEMINENCE/THE FIRST!
On the other hand, you never elaborated what these two of Jesus’ attributes out of many actually MEAN.
In the process of creation/redemption, there are many BEGINNINGS and MANY FIRSTS.
WHY DON’T YOU ELABORATE FOR A CHANGE AND TELL US ABOUT THESE BEGINNINGS AND FIRSTS?
LET US HEAR YOUR PERCEPTIONS AND BELIEF ABOUT HOW JESUS IS BOTH
THE BEGINNING OF ALL GOD’S BEGINNINGS and
THE PREEMINENCE, or as you WELL defined it
THE FIRST OF ALL GOD’S FIRSTS. Attention please:
WITHOUT CONTRADICTING YOURSELF, and in the same time, justify yourself that God established
ALL “THE BEGINNINGS” and ALL “THE PREEMINENCES”/THE FIRSTS
“BY REASON OF” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN,
NOT DIRECTLY BY JESUS HIMSELF!
To give you a clear hint;
THE FIRST MAN ADAM WAS ALSO THE BEGINNING of the human race,
Thus WAS ADAM CREATED AND MADE BY REASON OF JESUS, OR DIRECTLY BY
JESUS, “THE WORD”, THE SON OF MAN,
AS A SPIRIT IN ADAM’S HEART/SOUL SINCE ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM…..
This is well specifically depicted in
Job33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and
the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
CAN YOU SEE THE TRUTH Jodi,
THE ALMIGHTY GAVE LIFE TO ALL THINGS MADE BY A PARTICULAR SPIRIT OF GOD.
NOW THERE IS ONLY ONE SPIRIT THAT MADE ALL THINGS, AND THIS IS
“THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, THE PREEXISTED JESUS,
THE WORD MADE FLESH!
OR ELSE, WHY DON’T YOU TELL US WHO IS THIS SPIRIT OF GOD IN JOB ABOVE WHO MADE ELIEU, Jodi?
John 1:1IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
To all,
We say “all scripture” is “100% God breathed” and “infallible” and these are true statements; BUT, what has man done to scripture? Was there anything lost in translation between languages? Was anything added or removed? Where are the original documents – they’re available for the OT? We have been conditioned to accept the Greek over Aramaic (language of the day) or Hebrew. When did it seem a good idea to translate Biblical text into a language that is heavily rooted in philosophy? Do we disregard the possibility of Greek philosophy being incorporated into the scriptural translation? Something unique with ancient Greek is that it was written in all caps (hmmm), no punctuation, or spaces. Yet, the translators have added all that in; they “fixed it” so all could “better understand”.
A simple change in tense, plurality, or punctuation can change the meaning of a sentence. Titus 2:13 is a fine example of this manipulation. Verify it for yourself (https://biblehub.com/parallel/titus/2-13.htm), that little coma added in some translations changes the meaning of the verse from two appearing to one appearing; and the “one appearing” is “our great God and savior, Jesus Christ”. Which is perfect for those who believe Jesus is God. Which translation is truth (let the fight begin)?
To continue…
Same with John 1:1. The difference between a definite article or no definite article can be significant.
Proclaimer, how do you account for the fact that it is the Son of Man that was exalted to God’s right hand according to a promise? That it is the Son of Man that is returning in our Father’s glory and it is the son of David that is to sit on an eternal throne where God had promised to this son of David that He WOULD BE a Father unto him and that He WOULD settle him into His House?
Jesus Christ is the Word of God, the son of God, the son of Man, the final Adam, lord, savior and messiah. That is how you account for it. He was with God, came in the flesh, and is back with God in the glory he had before the cosmos. And we know that the Word was WITH God before the cosmos too. Then it is revealed to us by John that Jesus Christ is called the Word of God. This clearly makes him the Word of God. No argument.
Additionally, all things were made through the Word just the same that all things were made through the Son. Is that two that God made all things through? Being called the Word of God is a huge clue in case you cannot see it.
If you do not want to acknowledge and glorify the Son for all that he is, then that is your choice of course. But don’t expect me to be convinced of your limited view that lacks revelation given to us by Jesus and the apostles.
I guess you don’t know who the firstborn of all creation really is. It could be a being called Bruce for all you know. Do you have another candidate for the first to be with God? I guess not. But even you could understand that the first to be with God would have to be the most special being besides God himself. Do you agree? Is Bruce or whatever his name, the most special being on account of being with God first?
…continued from previous post,
We can’t all be right and the other guy wrong because our beliefs conflict. Is the believed doctrine supported by scripture or not? If scripture does not support, has to be manipulated, or man’s “read between the line” interpretation must be used to achieve the doctrine, it’s a lie and cannot remain in the church…period! How then is the truth or lie revealed? This is accomplished thru the careful study of God’s word, by allowing God’s spirit to guide (pray for wisdom), and thru conversation as we grow in understanding. I will repeat, understanding the old testament is important, because it’s from the old we gain the insight into what the writers of the new are trying to convey to the reader – they taught from the old. The Apostles didn’t write a “new” testament, man compiled it 300 years after they were all dead.
Let’s use the trinity (any doctrine will work) as an example of the “I’m right, your wrong” belief system in the church today; one side says it’s true and the other says it’s not. Who’s correct? Ask either side and each will say they are; here’s the rub, one’s wrong! You both can’t be right. This “I’m right and your wrong” has and is causing the church to fracture and why there are over 30,000 different denominations worldwide today. We as a church body are no longer unified under Christ; we are divided and pitted against one another, religion against religion, faith against faith and each one claiming theirs is the correct one. When did people begin refusing to consider anything outside the “religious box” they are in. How did the traditions and doctrines of man become so elevated they can never be questioned?
to continue…
Desire Truth……..I believe, if whatever is said “contradicts ” what is written in the old Testement, it is a lie. I also believe it takes the “spirit of truth” to guide your mind into the true meaning of scriptures.
We were told by PAUL to study the scriptures, to show ourselves , “approved unto God by “rightly” dividing the word of God”. At the time Paul said that, here existed only the OLD TESTEMENT, for them to study. So to me, whatever is said, if it in anyway conflicts with the Old Testement, it is most likely not true. The New Testement needs to read with great caution, be cause it is full of grammatical errors, that has been proven by scholars, over and over thousand of times, even whole book have been written about it. I am not saying we can’t gain knowledge from the New Testement, but we need to be carefull, with it, epically in cases of contradictions.
The Spirit of God shows us those false teaching errors. Just as it says…..“brethren you have no need of a teacher, for the Spirit itself will teach you “ALL” things.”
Peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth. ……..gene
Hi Berean,
EN- translated as “in” 1874 times
For IN Christ Jesus were all things created
Look at what Paul teaches in some of his other passages,
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in (en) Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Recall, Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Ephes 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in (en) Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in (en) him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In (en) whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in (en) Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Roman 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in (en) Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
1 Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in (en) Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Berean, nothing would have been made that was made by God our Father without Christ.
We were chosen by God in Christ before the foundation of the world as we are blessed with all the spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Jesus where our inheritance is in him as God has given us grace and redemption in him.
God’s purpose from the foundation of the world was to gather together in one all things in Christ. In Christ were all things created because in Christ shall all be made alive. God who made earth and man ALONE, did so for the purpose that earth be inhabited with righteous people. Christ is the foundation to which God had ALONE created all things where Christ Jesus is the firstborn to that which God intended before the world began.
WHO IS CHRIST? He is the son of David promised to be God’s Son where God would not take His goodness away from him, He would settle him into His House and His Kingdom forever and give him an eternal throne. Christ is this promised son of David to whom God called to righteousness begetting him with his Spirit and set him apart (anointed him) to fulfill God’s purpose for why God created all things in the first place, for man to inhabit an earth full of righteousness and peace.
IN Christ Jesus were all things created, they were created by reason of him and for him.
…to conclude,
The question that almost got me kicked out of a church: Why do we believe what we believe? Answer: Because we were told what to believe and why would we question it, the source comes from a pastor, the one “called by God” into “the ministry”. We treat our doctrines and traditions as though they’re infallible, words from God; but our doctrines, traditions, and religion, are of man. I believe people fear the truth because of what it will do to their religion; their religion is so important they can’t let it go and it ends up blinding them. Then there’s pride, who wants to be told what they believe to be truth may actually be wrong? So let’s double down on our belief.
Time is short, if we can’t get past doctrine, the church will remain divided, and a house divided will not stand. This division is of Satan and it’s working perfectly as the house continues to fracture. It’s past time to start questioning what came out of the Council of Nicea and every doctrine that blossomed after. A seed of deceit has been sown and man has been watering and nurturing it ever since.
I came here with the hope of learning and presenting the thoughts of what I have discovered as I have studied scripture and then to grow as these thoughts and ideas are bounced off others; however, the encounter has been no different than anywhere else I have tried to share, all met with criticism because it doesn’t align with doctrine. These doctrines have become so important and ingrained in our thinking that we no longer see the larger plan God put in place. The church is in trouble and most don’t see it.
If anything that I have said is incorrect, please correct me. Will we grow in our study of scripture or parrot what our religion teaches? I’m not here to change your mind, just to think outside the constraints of religion.
Onto why I joined this group…is the “Word” a who or what? What does “logos” really mean?
Hi Proclaimer,
As I have pointed out before, the context of the entire chapter of Colossians 1, Paul is speaking of just ONE creation, the one that he who shed his blood became firstborn of.
Leading up to Paul speaking of a firstborn overall creation we read,
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Not only does Paul in the first, clearly talk about the new heaven and earth that is our hope laid up in heaven for us, our inheritance, where we will dwell on earth being ruled by the son of David whom God promised He would be a Father to, he then also speaks directly of the man who shed his blood.
What happened to that man after he shed his blood, where was he when Paul was writing these words, as that is the obvious context to verse 15.
He shed his blood and then was raised from the dead having become the firstborn of every creature unto the new heaven and earth that Paul WAS JUST SPEAKING ABOUT and at the time Paul wrote this letter this man was sitting at God’s right hand as that firstborn!
Gene
why cast doubt on the new testament?
I do not agree. And I think Jesus disagrees, neither does the Father.🙏
Hi Proclaimer,
I think it’s funny how you said “no argument”!
YOU:
Jesus Christ is the Word of God, the son of God, the son of Man, the final Adam, lord, savior and messiah. That is how you account for it. He was with God, came in the flesh, and is back with God in the glory he had before the cosmos. And we know that the Word was WITH God before the cosmos too. Then it is revealed to us by John that Jesus Christ is called the Word of God. This clearly makes him the Word of God. No argument.
ME:
There is an argument over if Paul in Colossians 1 is speaking of 2 creations or just one. I have just shown how Paul is clearly referencing ONE creation. There is an argument over which definition of DIA is to be applied and that of EN as well.
There is an argument over if Revelation 19 is declaring two names or just one name, where that name that is written is God’s word fulfilled.
There is argument as to how Jesus exists as God’s Son and when he became God’s Son.
There is argument over if a god was morphed into a virgin’s womb becoming flesh like some pagan god or God’s word became true in the man of flesh Jesus of Nazareth.
There is argument over the glory Jesus references in John 17 that was of (para) God before the world was.
There is argument over what scriptures should be read in the context of God’s clear truth declared by God from the beginning, that a man would be called to righteousness to fulfill God’s purpose for why God had made all things in the first place.
And argument over a whole lot more!
You haven’t accounted for anything Proclaimer, because the fact of the matter is you can’t, it’s not possible.
You can’t have both, you can’t have on one hand that God promised to be a Father unto David’s Son, promised to make him His firstborn, promised to not take His goodness away from him, promised to settle him into His house and his kingdom forever and promised to give him an eternal throne and then say there was already a Son settled in God’s house who then became a son of David. Please read my post to the topic I recently created “The Only Begotten Son”. You deny how it is that God would be a Father unto David’ son.
Jodi
You
IN Christ Jesus were all things created, they were created by reason of him and for him.
Me
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.Why add to what is written?
🙏
Berean……..You bet I cast doubt on the New Testement, translations, epically when and where it contradicts the old Testement.
As Desire truth, has said you are living in a “box” , YES a box created for you by, the SEVENTH DAY ADVANTISTS, a box without a door.
By the way it wasn’t me who told us to do what I said, it was THE APOSTAL PAUL.
Peace and love to you and yours Berean………..gene
Hi Berean,
ME:
IN Christ Jesus were all things created, they were created by reason of him and for him.
YOU:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.Why add to what is written?
ME: I am not adding anything, I am repeating what is given in the beginning and end of one verse.
16 For in him (Christ Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by (reason of) him, and for him:
Gene
There is a big difference between Paul’s wholesome exhortations and your casting doubts, all to justify your Antichrist views.
Hi Jodi
The end of the verse 16 IS NOT” By reason of him …..”
BUT 👉 “BY HIM “….
BECAUSE
“IN HIM” IS THE SAME THAT ” BY HIM”
For by/in him were all things created, …….
,……. all things were created by him, and for him.
ALSO, for my understanding
by reason of him, it’s the same as: for him
and it is repeating itself to say “by reason of him and “for him”at the end of the verse.So , I BELEIVE THAT THE KING JAMES BIBLE IS RIGHT.
🙏
@ Berean, you state in reference to Col 1:16-17:
“BECAUSE BY HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED ….(see v. 16-17)
In other words CHRIST ORIGINALLY HAD TO BE OUR CREATOR IN ORDER TO BE OUR REDEEMER”Please scripturally support Jesus is our creator and “had” to be “in order” to be our redeemer.
Psalm 33 (read the entire chapter). Jesus is the creator?
Psa 148:5 Yahweh commanded and they were created – Jesus ?!?
Isa 40:28 Says “Everlasting God, Yahweh, the Creator” – Jesus?!?
Mark 13:19 Jesus’ words” …creation which God created…” Why didn’t Jesus say “I created”?
Rev 4:9-11 Who sits on the throne who is worthy created all things – Jesus?!?
Both you and Jodi are stuck on the Greek word “en” and have been dancing over that for the last week; look into the word “created”.
The Greek of this word is “ktizo” (Strongs G2936) – properly, create, which applies only to God who alone can make what was “not there before” (Latin, ex nihilo, out of nothing, J.Thayer).
Thayer further clarifies: In the Bible, to create: of God creating the world, man, etc., Mark 13:19; 1 Corinthians 11:9; Colossians 1:16 (cf. Winer’s Grammar, 272 (255)); Ephesians 3:9; 1 Timothy 4:3; Revelation 4:11; Revelation 10:6 (Deuteronomy 4:32; Ecclesiastes 12:1
In the list of scripture given, Col 1:16 is included and according to Thayer God is the only one who can create. So now we roll right into the next question, is Jesus equal too God, the same as God, or is God the Almighty? Which surprisingly (not really) brings us back to John 1:1…fascinating isn’t it!
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