JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[Berean]

At the end of our last post I asked for scripture to back up your statement of Christ being equal to God…do you have one?

Mr

If you can’t see the divinity of Christ right now, someone has trained you against it.
Moreover, believing in the divinity of Christ does not mean being Trinitarian and this is precisely the problem of the Unitarians. They are not able to discern between the trinitarian error and THE TRUTH. And that is not from today.
Will you believe one day?
We hope.

[Jodi]

Good Morning Berean,

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

of – ek, of, from, out of, by

by– dia, by the means of, by reason of, on account of

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.

Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

There is ONE that FROM Him are ALL THINGS. 

We know that the Spirit came upon Jesus without measure where he was thus anointed/set-apart to go out into the world and speak God’s WORD and do God’s WORKS through God’s Spirit that aboded in him. We can therefore say that God by means of His Spirit in Jesus did great works. 

We know that when Jesus returns to earth, it is that same Spirit dwelling in him that he continues to do God’s works. We can therefore say that God by means of His Spirit in Jesus will do great works. 

We also know that all things that God does by means of His Spirit in Jesus were prophesied and prophecy is that which is God’s WORD that will be fulfilled.

Does scripture support that this same Jesus pre-existed and also by means of God’s Spirit in him heaven and earth were created?  We know that Jesus by means of God’s Spirit SPOKE and healed, he SPOKE and even raised the dead. Through the Spirit we also know that Jesus will, “smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked”. But does scripture support that by means of God’s Spirit in Jesus that at the beginning it was Jesus who spoke and the heavens and earth were created?

NO, it absolutely does not. 

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

In the above prophecy that we know is speaking of Jesus, Jesus IS NOT the Creator, on the contrary, he is a human called to righteousness by the Creator.

Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things…11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded…18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God HIMELF that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, HE FORMED IT TO BE INHABITED: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

Jeremiah 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. 13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 THIS Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Isaiah 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;..27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring…29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

In the above passages that are clear and need no interpretation, we can obviously see that declaring Jesus as pre-existing as a Creator is pure nonsense, for we learn that the God who created the heavens, the earth and humans, not only did so by Himself, but He did so for the purpose that it be inhabited by humans who seek Him not in vain, where Jesus is a human given the earth to inhabit with an eternal kingdom. Jesus himself, a human male inhabiting the earth, directs us to read Genesis where it was NOT he from the beginning of creation who made them male and female, it was God. 

There is ONE that FROM Him are ALL THINGS and that Him is YHVH our Heavenly Father. In the beginning He ALONE created heaven and earth by His Spirit and the powers and wisdom therein He uttered His voice. 

There is ONE that our Heavenly Father created all things BY REASON OF AND FOR, and that is a son of David, Jesus of Nazareth, who will inhabit the earth with an eternal throne, where he is a Son of God, the firstborn of many Sons who do not seek God in vain, they are all Sons by being led by the Spirit of God in all their ways. 

God created earth to be inhabited and He promised before He even made humans that He would give them eternal life. By the righteousness of one man came justification for life, without this man nothing would have been made that was made. Without him there are no inhabitants with eternal life.  

This is why Paul says,

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

one God, the Father from whom are all things

one Lord Jesus Christ, by reason of him are all things

 

[Berean]

Jodi

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; 👉whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. 👈

 

—–Eternity past—–origine OF Christ (NOT known)—……………………….

…….,………………… Fondation OF our earth ………………………Prophecy OF Micah …

….

 

yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;

👉 FROM THE TIME OF MICAH 👉 it points to A FUTURE TIME NOT TO THE PASTE👈

 

whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. 

👉 it points to the PAST NOT TO THE FUTURE

YES OR NO ?

🙏

[Jodi]

Berean,

Let’ not go around in circles, please address my last post, at the very least speak to the scriptures I gave and show how they fit in perfectly with your interpretation of Micah 5.

I will incorporate Micah 5 into my last post and also add Luke 1. 

Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things…11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded…18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God HIMELF that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, HE FORMED IT TO BE INHABITED: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Micah 5:And you, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, the least among the families of Judah, out of you one will come to me who is to be ruler in Israel; whose going out has been purposed from time past, from the eternal days.3 For this cause he will give them up till the time when she who is with child has given birth: then the rest of his brothers will come back to the children of Israel. 4 And he will take his place and give food to his flock in the strength of the Lord, in the glory of the name of the Lord his God; and their resting-place will be safe: for now he will be great to the ends of the earth.

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of WISDOM and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of KNOWLEDBGE and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.
53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Berean,

The God who by HIMSELF created the earth and man upon it did so with the purpose that it be inhabited by the seed of Jacob where they would not seek Him in vain but would serve Him in holiness and righteousness. This Creator also purposed since the world began that one from the seed of Israel, of the tribe of Judah, a son of Jesse and that of David, would be a ruler overall, where through the Creators Spirit upon him he would crush the enemies of Israel and bring forth righteousness and peace upon the earth. Jesus is that ruler, he is not the Creator who said He created earth and man BY HIMSELF.

 

[Jodi]

Hi Berean,

Please explain to show how your interpretation aligns with the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah’s words.

You believe that all thing were created by means of Jesus, that Jesus spoke creation into existence. 

In Isaiah 42 the Creator is spoken of and he is identified as YHVH our God and this same Creator is said to give His Spirit to a man and to call that man into righteousness to fulfill God’s covenant, which has everything to do with why YHVH created earth in the first place.

We read later in chapter 45 by Isaiah that YHVH created earth and man upon it by HIMSELF and for the purpose that it be inhabited and we are given by Isaiah in chapter 11 that the same man given the Spirit of YHVH is going to bring peace on earth, he is one who is inhabiting the earth fulfilling YHVH’s purpose for creating it in the first place.

We read in Jeremiah 10 that YHVH created the earth by His power, by His wisdom and by the utterance of His voice things are made, this aligns directly with the fact that we are told by Isaiah that YHVH by Himself created earth and man.

It is clearly given that Jesus is not the Creator, rather he is a man who is part of the Creation of all things that YHVH Himself created. We can also clearly see that what this man accomplishes through the Creator’s Spirit upon him, that it is he who fulfills the very purpose to why things were created by YHVH in the first place.

When we believe that Jesus is the man who is the word of God spoken by the prophets made true in the flesh, then we know EXACTLY WHY it is said of him in the NT that all things were created by reason of him and for him.

 

[Jodi]

Hi Proclaimer,

ME: God Himself IS ETERNAL and by His power He can give us Eternal Life also, He IS THE SOURCE of Eternal Life, it is Him and it is with Him.

YOU:
The eternal life is Jesus Christ.
He was the first to be with God and as he is, so we will be.
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand”
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
I guess that in the same way that Moses imparted the law, Jesus imparts life. Life, Spirit, Light, and the Law come from God. But the law came through Moses and eternal life through the one that was with God in the beginning. The first-born of all creation. The one that came in the flesh.

ME:

Proclaimer, how do you account for the fact that it is the Son of Man that was exalted to God’s right hand according to a promise? That it is the Son of Man that is returning in our Father’s glory and it is the son of David that is to sit on an eternal throne where God had promised to this son of David that He WOULD BE a Father unto him and that He WOULD settle him into His House?

How do you account for the fact that the image of the Son is one who is LED by the Spirit of God according to Paul and that we see Jesus as the only mortal man to have received the Spirit of God not by measure and left the river Jordan being LED by the Spirit, and when he received the Spirit, God declared at that moment that this man is His Son? Such is not the fulfillment of God’s word unto David concerning his son?

I can’t help but notice in your post that you say absolutely NOTHING ABOUT GOD’S SPIRIT.

You speak of LIGHT and we are directly given that God gives His Spirit unto a man, calls him to righteousness for to fulfill God’s covenant where he will be for a light, a light that delivers captives out of darkness, saves them from an eternal death through the Spirit that comes upon him.

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many…18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Proclaimer, the man who received the Spirit of God we are also told was called to righteousness such fits perfectly with the fact that Paul tells us that the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth. Jesus said that he needed to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness.

Don’t you get it? Jesus himself was CALLED TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, don’t you believe YHVH’s word? The mystery of GODLINESS, is that Jesus was JUSTIFIED IN THE SPIRIT, God manifested Himself in the flesh, being ALL IN Jesus causing all goodness, righteousness and truth to exist within a man by him receiving the Spirit without measure and then this Son of Man was received up in glory, the Son of Man was exalted to God’s right hand. Just as God had promised unto David son when God said that He WOULD be a Father unto David’s son and then settle him into His House and His Kingdom forever.

The man Jesus himself said that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God, is not that exactly what happened to Jesus?

Don’t you get it, Jesus was justified in the Spirit, the Spirit in the man Jesus was proof that the Spirit causes righteousness in man, it qualified him to be worthy of eternal life. God being ALL IN him brought forth his righteousness where by proof of his perfect obedience through the Spirit all men are justified if they believe this truth. God will be ALL in us also and we will be Sons of God being LED by the Spirit of God also. Don’t you believe that ass Ezekiel says that God will give His Spirit and causse us to walk in all of God’ ways?

What do you think Jesus meant when he said, you will be baptized with the baptism I received and you will drink of the cup that I drink of, where we read that it is the cup of the One Spirit we are made to drink of to which Jesus drank of at the river Jordan and then again when he was raised from the dead? It all fits perfectly and Jesus pre-existing HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT, THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLING IN A MAN HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH IT. 

The promise of eternal life is the promise of God being ALL IN, for sin is death and righteousness is life as we are told the Spirit is life because of righteousness. AND WE SEE JESUS WHO HAD RECEIVED THE SPIRIT NOT BY MEASURE AND WAS CALLED TO RIGHTEOUSNESS BE RAISED FROM THE DEAD, TO THEN RECEIVE THE SPIRIT ACCORDING TO A PROMISE where he was exalted to God’ right hand and entered into God’s house just as God had promised unto David’s son. Such is why our hope is to be as Jesus is, why Paul tells us that our hope is for righteousness, that our hope is by our faith that we will receive the promised Spirit, for we are promised to be heirs of God joint heirs with Christ, where those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.

[DesireTruth]

@ Berean,
You said Christ was equal with God, I asked for scripture to support it.

You said God “required” a “partner” to redeem and judge the world, I asked for scripture.

Now you bring up “divinity”, how did we arrive at divinity when we were talking about equality and a partnership? Then to accuse me of being “trained” to not “see” over a topic that we haven’t even discussed. If you would like to discuss the topic of Christ’s “divine state”, I would be open to it. HOWEVER, we need to get past what we began discussing first before we move on. Conversations aren’t one sided, they are a give and take – information presented, questions asked, questions answered.

P.S. Out of everything I wrote in the response of I Cor 8:6, the only thing you grabbed out of it was the trinity.

P.P.S. For the record, looked up the Unitarian faith; be assured, I am NOT Unitarian.

P.P.P.S. Are there any scriptures that support equality and/or partnership?

[Berean]

Hi Jodi

Please responds to the subject of Micah 5:2 on the origin of the Son of God.

Thank’s

🙏

[Jodi]

Hi Berean,

I can’t find “The Origin of the Son of God”, can you bump it up wherever it might be.

[GeneBalthrop]

Proclaimer. ……..please read and study what Jodi wrote to you, perhaps you can come to see Jesus did not “preexist”  , His birth on this earth,  That is your big stumbling block brother.  IMO

THAT IS NOT saying,  Jesus was not in the plan and will of God , before he ever even started his human creation on this earth though.

Peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer………..gene

[Berean]

Hi DesireTruth

John 1:1-3 With God in the BIGINNING

John 3:35/13:3  all in HIS hands

1Peter1:18,19  redeemed by HIS blood

John 5:22  the Father remits all judgment to the Son

Don’t forget, you kicked for Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness:

US, OUR….👉 2 PEOPLE AT LEAST

🙏

[Berean]

Hi Jodi

942448REPLY
BereanParticipant
Jodi

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;  whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. 
—–Eternity past—–origine OF Christ (NOT known)—……………………….

…….,………………… Fondation OF our earth ………………………Prophecy OF Micah …

….

 

yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;

FROM THE TIME OF MICAH   it points to A FUTURE TIME NOT TO THE PASTE

 

whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. 

it points to the PAST NOT TO THE FUTURE

YES OR NO ?

🙏

[Jodi]

Good Morning All,

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

I don’t know how else to say this, but peoples’ interpretation of the above scripture is just really bad.

Correct me if I get anything wrong,

The Word= a pre-existing Jesus who is God’s only begotten Son existing in the form of God whose name is The Word because by his word in the beginning heaven and earth were created.

Made Flesh= The only begotten Son existing in the form of God emptied himself to come down to earth finding himself in the uterus of Mary being made into a human of flesh.

Dwelt Among Us= he came down from heaven to earth

We beheld his glory, the only glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth= ? you guy are going to have to help me out on this one, please explain?

My understanding,

The Word=God’s Word spoken by the prophets, that a son of David would be born and God would become a Father unto him where God would give this son of David of His Spirit calling him to righteousness where he would then be sent out into the world to preach God’s truth and do God’s works.

Made Flesh= At the river Jordan, God’s Word spoken by the prophets became true in the man of flesh, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Abraham and the son of David.

Dwelt Among Us=Upon God’s Word being made true in Jesus, just as the Word also prophesied, Jesus was sent out into the world where he preached God’s word of truth and performed miracles among the people.

We beheld his glory, the only glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth= As the word of God had declared that God would be a Father unto David’s son, that He would make David’s son into His firstborn Son, God gave Jesus His Spirit to dwell in him without measure, whereas also prophesied, God would hold his hand just as a Father would do and keep him in the path of obedience, having called him to righteousness to fulfill God’s covenant. As Jesus was filled with the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Reverence for God, given the GLORY that God had promised to no other spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, the people did indeed behold that glory, the glory of one full of grace and truth, the glory of the only man to have been begotten of God’s Spirit without measure.

The glory is identified as one FILLED WITH GRACE AND TRUTH and we know that Jesus left the river Jordan having been FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT, where we read the promise was for him to receive the Spirit of WISDOM, UNDERSTANDING AND KNOWLEDGE for the PURPOSE TO GO OUT AMONG THE PEOPLE AND PREACH GOD’S TRUTH.

How can you people in all sincerity tell me that the man who had God’s Spirit come to dwell in him without measure, said to have been FILLED with the Spirit, is not exactly what John was speaking to when he says the “only begotten of the Father, filled with grace and truth”? Is Jesus NOT the ONLY man to have been filled with God’s Spirit without measure? Being filled with God’s Spirit and thus LED by the Spirit is NOT the equivalent to being begotten by God and therefore being a Son of God?

How can you people in all sincerity tell me that the GLORY that the people beheld, the glory of the only begotten of the Father filled with grace and truth, had nothing to do with the fact that God’s Word was fulfilled in Jesus when Jesus was filled with the Spirit, receiving the glory of God’s word that He had declared He would not give to any other?

Further, you deny the words of the prophet Nathan who said that God WOULD BE a Father unto a son of David and that HE WOULD give him an eternal kingdom and that HE WOULD settle him into His House and His Kingdom forever. There is NOT an already existing Son of God with an eternal throne, there is NOT already a son of David made into God’s Son who is settled into God’s house when Nathan gave this prophecy.

What did the man Jesus preach? He said one must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God. Jesus preached that we would indeed be baptized as he was and that we indeed would drink of the same cup that he drinks of and we know that cup is to drink of the One Spirit to which he received at the river Jordan upon his own baptism and then again when he rose from the dead. He spoke of himself as the Son of Man who would be exalted to God’s right hand, that he was going to leave and go be with the Father, he enters God’s kingdom BECAUSE HE WAS BORN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT HIMSELF. Such is God’s word that a son of David would be settled into God’s house and into His kingdom, and it was glory that God had prepared for this man from the beginning.

[Jodi]

Hi Berean,

Micah 5:2 is a scripture that is one for debate, which is evident given the different translations.

Micah 5:2 (BBE) And you, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, the least among the families of Judah, out of you one will come to me who is to be ruler in Israel; whose going out has been purposed from time past, from the eternal days.

Micah 5:2 (GNT) The Lord says, “Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are one of the smallest towns in Judah, but out of you I will bring a ruler for Israel, whose family line goes back to ancient times.”

Micah 5:2 (MSG) But you, Bethlehem, David’s country, the runt of the litter – From you will come the leader who will shepherd-rule Israel. He’ll be no upstart, no pretender. His family tree is ancient and distinguished.

Micah 5:2 (NIRV) The LORD says, “Bethlehem, you might not be an important town in the nation of Judah. But out of you will come a ruler over Israel for me. His family line goes back to the early years of your nation. It goes all the way back to days of long ago.” Bethlehem was also called Ephrathah.

Micah 5:2 (NIV) “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Micah 5:2 (ASV) But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.

forth- Mowtsa’ah, this word is found twice in the bible, in Micah 5:2 and then one other time speaking of an outhouse/privy.

origin, place of going out from

1.origin

2. places of going out to or from
3. privy

The origin of this word is Mowtsa’

1. act or place of going out or forth, issue, export, source, spring

Luke 1: 67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

The ruler spoken of in Micah 5:2 is this horn of salvation spoken of in Luke 1, where he is the Son of Man who will rule over the earth and save Israel from their enemies destroying all the wicked. This ruler coming forth was spoken since the world began.

Berean, I find it absolutely absurd that you try and use Micah 5:2 as some sort of definitive proof that Jesus pre-existed.

Such a truth so very significant, you’d think Micah would elaborate on such an extreme declaration, you’d think also it would be well covered throughout the OT, but it’s not covered at all as it’s not in the least bit true. What is covered in great detail is that there will be a ruler of the tribe of Judah who through God’ Spirit upon him he destroys the enemies and brings forth righteousness and peace upon all the earth. Isaiah even tells us that this truth was with God from the beginning, that one man would fulfill God’s purpose for why God created all things in the first place, which was for His creation, that He Himself ALONE had made, would be filled with righteousness. 

[Berean]

Jodi

You are at war with God’s Holy Bible, especially the KING JAMES. No more no less.

GO BACK TO THE KING JAMES Jodi, and face the TRUTH.

God bless

[Jodi]

Hi Berean,

KJ says, 

Isaiah 45,

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God HIMSELF that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Can you please speak directly to these passages?

Jesus is NOT the Creator according to King James, he is the one of prophecy that our Creator called to righteousness and made into a light. We are directly given that this Creator by HIMSELF formed the earth and made it, it is He that forms the light. To turn and say that the man of the prophecy made into a LIGHT by the Creator actually pre-exited as the Creator, is just utterly deplorable.

You really need to explain yourself.

With all do respect, it is you that seems to be quite at war with the KJ bible.

[Berean]

Jodi

The origin of Jesus goes back to the days of eternity. It’s not complicated.
Stop fussing and moving heaven and earth to prove the opposite.

🙏

[GeneBalthrop]

Jodi…….Those who truly know the truth , know what you have written is the truth from God’s word.  Haven’t you noticed they never address all the tons of scriptures you quote. THEY ONLY COME BACK WITH A Single SCRIPTURE,  that they can twist to mean something other they what it is actually saying.  They simply use them to , “cloud the truth”  of what you have quoted from many, many, of our existing scriptures. 

These people are like,  a person swatting a gnat, and swollen a Camel. They are the blind leading the blind, stumbling along the walls of deception, in the trenches they have fallen into.

Stay strong Jodi, in the way of truth, I believe God has sent us another, “Desire Truth”  to help us in establishing the “TRUTH” here.

Peace and love to you and your Jodi……….gene

 

 

[Jodi]

Good Morning Berean,

Surely for someone so invested in God’s word, sharing and defending it’s truth, that being asked to read 6 scriptures out of 2 chapters and then explain how they specifically fit in with your belief, is not too much to ask, should be a rather small task.

[Berean]

Jodi

Jodi, all the evidence has been provided on this forum by Proclaimer, LU, Carmel, myself and others in the past.

For about 6,000 years Satan has been trying to deceive mankind with this subterfuge.
ruse, stratagem) advocated by anti-Christ Unitarians.
Under the pretense that the Trinity is a false conception of God, AND IT IS, UNITARIANS ENTIRELY REJECT THE CRUSHING FACT THAT CHRIST PRE-EXISTED AND WAS WITH THE GOD AND WAS GOD, AS OUR BROTHER JOHN AFFIRMS .
IT COMES TO THROW THE BABY(THE TRUTH) OUT WITH THE BATH WATER(THE ERROR).

🙏

 

 

[Author]

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