- This topic has 25,959 replies, 116 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 3 months ago by
.
- Posts
So in this I do strongly agree with you Adam. I believe you problem has to deal with not so much how the true apostles or original writers , but more with the false concepts applied to those scriptures by the Fallen or Present Apostate Church’s apply them. IMO
Hi brother Gene, thanks for your agreement on the myth of preexistence of the Messiah. I request you to go beyond this even to the level of the so called writers who were not the eye witnesses of the events in the life of Jesus including Paul. You will realise the actual problem in the NT. These writers wanted to prove their Hellenistic ideas on Jesus the supposed Messiah. Please take the example of the writer of Matthew how he misquoted the Hebrew scriptures to prove Jesus’ so called Virgin Birth. What can you expect from these writers? Similarly the writer of John’s Gospel who mystified Jesus by comparing him with God’s impersonal ‘word’ as if he was preexisting with God as a separate (divine) being. This is often supported by the non-trinitarians like Mike, Proclaimer and others here.
Please understand my struggle for truth.
But if you say that Jesus Christ is the Word that was with God before the cosmos, that he emptied himself and came in the flesh, was obedient to God, sacrificed for our sins as the Lamb of God, rose from the dead as death is defeated, and is now in the glory that he had with God before the cosmos, then you have zero contradictions.
Proclaimer
He WAS(in The BIGINNING) and IS Now “THE WORD “
WHO WAS (in The BIGINNING) and IS NOW WITH GOD
AND WAS GOD( in The BIGINNING)
And NOW IS GOD AND MAN FOR ETERNITY (COLOSSIANS 2:9)
EMMANUEL (GOD WITH US)
AMEN !
Isaiah 45:14Thus saith the Lord: The labour of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and of Sabaim, men of stature shall come over to thee, and shall be thine: they shall walk after thee, they shall go bound with manacles: and they shall worship thee, and shall make supplication to thee:
only in thee is God, and there is no God besides thee.
15Verily thou art a hidden God,
the God of Israel the saviour.16They are all confounded and ashamed:
the forgers of errors are gone together into confusion.
What are your comments regarding the above scripture!
Hi Carmel, What do you want from me on this verse? I am just quoting the verses surrounded by the verse Isaiah 45:14 for your reference.
I have aroused Cyrus[e] in righteousness,
and I will make all his paths straight;
he shall build my city
and set my exiles free,
not for price or reward,
says the Lord of hosts.
14 Thus says the Lord:
The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Ethiopia,[f]
and the Sabeans, tall of stature,
shall come over to you and be yours,
they shall follow you;
they shall come over in chains and bow down to you.
They will make supplication to you, saying,
“God is with you alone, and there is no other;
there is no god besides him.”
15 Truly, you are a God who hides himself,
O God of Israel, the Savior.
16 All of them are put to shame and confounded,
the makers of idols go in confusion together.
17 But Israel is saved by the Lord
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.
18 For thus says the Lord,
who created the heavens
(he is God!),
who formed the earth and made it
(he established it;
he did not create it a chaos,
he formed it to be inhabited!):
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
19 I did not speak in secret,
in a land of darkness;
I did not say to the offspring of Jacob,
“Seek me in chaos.”
I the Lord speak the truth,
I declare what is right.Yes this chapter is about the Persian Emperor Cyrus who was addressed as the Messiah (Anointed) by the God of Israel and this chapter also is about the Unity of God and no one besides him. Yes he is mentioned as a hidden God but the same God Yahweh no one else.
Adam……Another point to consider , Was Jesus dealing with the salvation of Carmel nation , or with eternal salvation of all human beings? , the Salvation Of Jesus was for eternal life, the Jew’s salvation looks to their physical salvation as a nation. Big difference in what kind of salvation we’re talking about, The Jews rejected their eternal salvation, when they rejected God the Fathers sacrifice of the Messiah Jesus Christ, but some did accept it and even to this day some are, but the rest will have their kingdom restores to them and will have to continue their sacrifices for their sins as before. Because they missed out on their “eternal” salvation, God offered them, please don’t miss out on that salvation brother. Remember all the prophets God sent to them, and how they mistreated them and did not believe them, Just as they did not believe in Jesus either and even murdered him. Be careful and not miss out on your calling brother.
Your confusing two different events, one physical, and the other Spiritual, which the Physically minded have no part of.
peace and love to you and yours Adam……….gene
Berean: “a god”
This is not what the Bible conveys to make us understand WHO IS JESUS….THAT IS TO SAY THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD
“A god who is not THE Most High God” is exactly what the Bible conveys about Jesus. Also…
John 3:16-17… For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that everyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
God is the “Savior of the world”, Berean. In this most recent instance, God chose to save the world through His Son, Jesus. But he has also saved His people numerous times through other faithful servants…
Nehemiah 9:27… and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.
Notice that although it was God who was the actual Savior, the faithful servants whom God used to save His people were also given the title “savior”. It is the same with Jesus. Yes, Jesus is one of the many saviors God has given His people – but don’t ever lose sight of the fact that it is God alone who is the ultimate Savior that sends all those other saviors – just like He sent Jesus.
Likewise, Moses, Samuel, Elijah, Jesus and many others did miraculous signs and wonders. But don’t ever forget that, although the miracles were attributed to the ones who were seen doing them, it was God alone who actually did the miracles through those others. And that also includes Jesus…
Acts 2:22… Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
Berean, did Moses perform the miracles? Or did God perform the miracles through him? Did Jesus perform the miracles? Or did God perform the miracles through him?
Did Moses save the Israelites? Or did God save the Israelites through him? Did Jesus save mankind? Or did God save mankind through him?
Did Jesus create the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them? Or did God create the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them through him?
You are right on the verge of accepting scriptural truth. It’s time to take that last step now.
Mike
God did not perform a miracle through his Son to create the universe. THE ONLY SON BEGOTTEN HAS INHERITED HIS FATHER’S ABILITY TO CREATE THE UNIVERSE.
IS IT SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND?Proclaimer: How come it doesn’t say the god Jesus met a woman at a well. Or the god Jesus died for us. And in Heaven he is not described as a god with eyes like fire.
That’s like asking why the word “god” isn’t included in every mention of YHWH… or even Satan – who we know is “the god of this world”. But let me reverse it on you… If Jesus isn’t a god who is not THE Most High God, then why these verses…
Isaiah 9:6… he will be called… Mighty God…
John 1:1… and the Word was a god.
John 1:18… the only begotten god has made Him known.
John 10:35-36… If he called them gods… then what about the one whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?
I’m hopeful that you will eventually come to understand that ALL spirit sons of God are gods. That includes Satan, Dagon, Michael, Ashteroth, Gabriel, Molech, Jesus… ALL of them.
YHWH is the God of gods. That is a meaningless title if there are no other gods for Him to be the God of.
YHWH is the Most High God. That is a meaningless title if there are no less high gods.
YHWH is the Almighty God. That is a meaningless title if there don’t exist less mighty gods.
Berean: Mike
God did not perform a miracle through his Son to create the universe.
What we know from scripture is that God did the miracles on earth through Jesus… and that God created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them through Jesus.
Hebrews 1:1-2… In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the world.
Get it? God did the speaking… THROUGH the prophets.
God did the speaking… THROUGH His Son.
God did the creating… THROUGH His Son.
It’s not really that complicated.
Berean: THE ONLY SON BEGOTTEN HAS INHERITED HIS FATHER’S ABILITY TO CREATE THE UNIVERSE. IS IT SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND?
Well first of all, how do we know the Father even has that ability – since according to you the Father has never created a universe? Secondly, what you’ve said above isn’t based on any scriptural teaching, and I therefore have no valid reason to even try to understand it.
Berean, according to Jesus’ own apostles in Acts 4, who created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them? Jesus? Or someone other than Jesus?
Just think… if you would just believe Jesus’ apostles (or even Jesus himself in Mark 13:19, etc), we’d never have to have this discussion again. But since you don’t believe Jesus or his own apostles (who learned everything they taught from either Jesus or the Spirit), we keep going through the same nonsense over and over.
Mike: So then “divinity” doesn’t necessarily mean “omniscient”?
Berean: You do not understand
Jesus put aside his divine attributes to live the human way
On earth, he received through the Spirit of the Father what he had to say and do and therefore he depended entirely on his Father.I understand what you said – and agree with it. But I’m still waiting for SCRIPTURAL verification that Jesus is CURRENTLY omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent. And since you have none to offer, there is really no reason for anyone to take you seriously when you make such claims.
Also, as Proclaimer has aptly pointed out to you, the elect among us will someday partake in this same divine nature – yet that won’t make any of the elect omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent.
Carmel: THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH TO ME AND TO MANY OTHERS, EVEN IN THE OT, THOUGH NOT SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED THE TITLE “GODMAN”
Neither that title nor the idea is mentioned in any scripture. Jesus was a god in heaven alongside his own God before the world began. Then Jesus was a man on earth. Now Jesus is a god again who sits at the right hand of his and our God, YHWH.
At no time was Jesus both god and man at the same time.
Mike: Carmel, the correct answer to my question is: SCRIPTURE. That is the only thing we have to test the spirits against. In fact, the whole idea of testing the spirits to see if they are from God is based on the fact that evil spirits can convince you that you’re listening to Jesus himself – when you are not.
Carmel: OF WHICH I PRODUCED TONS OF IT.
Yes, you quote a lot of scriptures for sure. The problem is that you then go on to claim things that aren’t supported by those scriptures you quote. The trick is to quote scriptures and then make claims that those scriptures actually support… like I do.
Proclaimer: If the Son was not first then who was the first to be with God?
This is a very good point that you’ve made here for years. If we assume that Jesus is God, then there would have to be a very first son that this combo God brought forth into existence, right? And as ComboGod’s firstborn son, surely we’d be told about him, right?
In the Genesis genealogies, all of the fathers begat many sons and daughters – but their firstborn son is the prominent one who is mentioned by name, right?
So why wouldn’t we know anything at all about ComboGod’s firstborn son – the one who was created as the first of his/their works, and therefore the beginning of the creation by ComboGod?
On the other hand, if God is only one person, we’d likewise be told about His firstborn son – the one who was created as the first of His works, and therefore the beginning of the creation by God, right?
(Col 1:15, Prov 8:22, Rev 3:14)
Berean: His sonship HAD a BEGINNING but not His DIVINE NATURE WHICH HAD NO BEGINNING AND NO END.
LU: Amen Berean
When the elect partake in the divine nature shared by Jesus and his God, will they all of a sudden become people who had no beginning or no end? Or will they remain people who did once have a beginning?
If it is the latter, then it doesn’t really matter what you guys imagine about the eternal divine nature of God applying to other persons, because the fact will remain that – divine nature or not – all of these people, including Jesus, had a beginning at one time or another.
God had no beginning. Jesus, the other gods, and human beings all did.
Proclaimer: The fourth gospel says that the Word was divine. There is no definite article in the last mention of theos.
The lack of definite article says the logos was a god – not that he was “divine”. John 1:1 tells of someone called the logos who was with THE god, and was himself a god (but not THE god he was with).
Well first of all, how do we know the Father even has that ability – since according to you the Father has never created a universe?
Mike,
Since according to you God performed a miracle for his Son to create the universe, it is because HE HAS IN HIM THE POWER TO CREATE EVERYTHING AND THEREFORE HE WOULD HAVE TRANSFERRED TO HIS SON. So I have no doubt that the Father is omnipotent.
And I have no doubt that the Son IS OF THE FATHER’S OWN SUBSTANCE AND THEREFORE HE IS GOD OF GOD AS A HUMAN SON IS HUMAN OF A HUMAN FATHER. SO, AND BECAUSE THE SON IS GOD IN ESSENCE, NATURE, HE HAVE THE POWER TO CREATE ALL THINGS.
LU: The Bible does not say that we “inherit” divine nature. We will share in divine nature meaning we will put on the righteousness of Christ and change from being corruptible to incorruptible.
2 Peter 1:4… you may become (1)partakers of the (2)divine (3)nature
1) a sharer, partner
2) deity
3) genus, nature
It means some of us will share in the nature of gods, ie: have divine nature. It is reiterated here…
Acts 17:29… Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that this divine nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.
The bolded part is the same word as #2 above… it means “deity”, and is “a general name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks” – according to the NET scholars.
Paul’s teachings always included the assumption that those he was speaking to were the elect, who would eventually dwell in heaven – even those most of them were not. But the teaching is that those of us who are accepted into a spiritual sonship of God (John 1:12-13) will have the nature of gods, ie: the divine nature that God and Jesus currently have.
Having that nature won’t mean we are all of a sudden “from eternity” or “omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient”… just like Jesus sharing that deity nature doesn’t mean he is any of these things.
SINCE GOD IS OMNIPOTENT, WHY THEN MAKE A MIRACLE FOR HIS SON TO CREATE THE UNIVERSE WHEN HE CAN EVERYTHING.
THIS THESIS DOESN’T STAND UP … (that’s my opinion)THEN IN THE CASE ( This is what I believe) OR GOD HAS CREATED EVERYTHING BY HIS OMNIPOTENT WORKER, WHY WOULD HE CHOOSE TO ACT SO ????
MY ANSWER IS THAT GOD NEEDS A SON (OMNIPOTENT) BUT NOT THAT, IN ORDER TO FULFILL HIS PURPOSES IN CASE HIS FREE WILL CREATURES WOULD COME TO REBELL AGAINST HIS GOVERNMENT.
THEREFORE THE SON TAKEN CARE OF EVERYTHING ( in agreement with his father)
CREATION
REDEMPTION
THE JUGEMENTAND HE WILL GIVE EVERYTHING INTO THE HANDS OF THE FATHER WHEN HE HAS PUT ALL OF HIS ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET, DEATH WILL BE LAST.
(1COR.15: 24-28)TO BE CONTINUED IF GOD……!?
LU: Not applicable since God is spirit, not a spirit.
God is a person, an entity. Since He is qualitatively spirit, he is, by definition, a spirit. Just like one who is qualitatively canine is a dog, one who is qualitatively feline is a cat, one who is qualitatively homo sapien is a man, and one who is qualitatively deus is a god.
John 4:24 King James Bible… God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
When the Greek noun lacks the definite article, we often add the indefinite article in English translations – like the KJV did above.
LU: I will add that not only did the sonship have a beginning but the fathership would have as well at the same moment…
Dirt was not eternal, it was created. There was a time when dirt was not.
I hope that helps.
There was a time when dirt was not, and there was a time when the firstborn son of God was not – as you yourself have acknowledged above (albeit in your usual twisted way).
The Father is from eternity. His firstborn is not, hence his titles: firstborn of every creature and beginning of the creation by God. He did not always exist as did his Father, but was begotten by his Father at some point: You are my son; this day I have begotten you.
This is what scripture teaches. Anything you add to that about the son’s supposed eternal nature or cells dividing or whatever is of your own imagination, and is irrelevant in the minds of serious students of scripture.
Mike: Adam, is your coming messiah, who will be a regular old human being in every possible way, going to live forever?
Adam: Yes he will not be an old man as you rightly pointed out but he will certainly be a warrior prince. It will be an end time Messianic kingdom where the Israelites will live there forever with their children and grandchildren and David will be their prince forever. I think this is possible with resurrection beliefs in the Hebrew religion. It may even be possible that the original David himself will be the Prince as mentioned in Ezek 37:25 as there will be resurrection of the dead in future.
Where can I read about resurrection in the OT?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
