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Mike……Right on brother. Very good post to LU and Berean too. That is the way I see it also, one God who created everything “alone and by himself”. Isa 44:24, God does nothing through his servants but speakers his words to them and sends them out to tell his words, to who he sends them to. That is exactly what he did with the prophets, and Jesus also. Jesus did not preexist his birth on this earth , except in the plan and will of the Father, and gave his prophets his words, to tell us about him (Jesus) before he ever came into his only true and actual existence. Just as he sent his prophets to tell about his servant Cyrus 200 years before his birth also. Jesus was part of God the Fathers plan before he was even born, and the Glory he was to receive was also given him before he ever came into existence too. That is what Jesus meant when he said he “had” that glory with the father , it was a “prophesied” glory he was going to receive, not a glory he had already once before, as false teachers think he meant.
Good posts Mike.peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Gene: Mike……Right on brother. Very good post to LU and Berean too.
Thanks Gene. Hey, do you know what happened to Ed J? I haven’t heard anything from him in months.
Berean: Mike
John 1:3 give the answer
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
HIM = THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GODThanks for your answer. You believe Jesus is the Creator. What then do you make of this?
Mark 13:19-20
…because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.
Is Jesus talking about himself as “God” in that verse?
Mike
Very good question…..
My answer IS
GOD CREATED BY HIS SON BECAUSE
ALL IS FROM GOD THE FATHER(the Son too) AND BY HIS SON…
…..one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;
and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
I’m sure you will one day understand this: OF WHOM ….. BY WHOM
THE FATHER: OF WHOM…..ETC…
THE SON : BY WHOM…..ETC…
Note : The Son IS not created but BEGOTTEN from God thé Father:
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Angels are created beings, not THE SON OF GOD
God bless
Mike
John 1:3 give the answer
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
HIM = THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GODThis is the fate of the NT it contradicts its own Christology. I hope Mike and other non-trinitarians will notice this problem. They also believe Jesus’ preexistence as the word in the beginning with God. The only difference is they only believe that Jesus created by God first. Hope brother Gene notice the difference.
Gadam
The only difference is they only believe that Jesus created by God first. Hope brother Gene notice the difference.
Me
This is not Jesus Christ created BY God first
This IS : GOD CREATED ALL THINGS
BY JESUS CHRIST
God bless you BY Jesus Christ
Berean: GOD CREATED BY HIS SON
So if God created, who is our Creator?
Berean: ALL IS FROM GOD THE FATHER(the Son too) AND BY HIS SON… I’m sure you will one day understand this…
I already understand it. I understand that you take the KJV word “by” and ignore the fact that the true meaning of it is “through”. So the scriptural truth is that all things came FROM God, and THROUGH His holy servant Jesus. Just like your own children came FROM God, but they came THROUGH you. It’s really not that hard as long as you remember that he who creates is one, and he THROUGH WHOM the thing was created is another. Remember God telling Jeremiah, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you”? God is the one who created Jeremiah, but God did that THROUGH Jeremiah’s parents on earth, right? He who created Jeremiah (God) is one, and those THROUGH WHOM Jeremiah was created (his parents) are others. And you can change every THROUGH that I used above to the KJV’s BY – and the meaning remains exactly the same.
Berean: For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Angels are created beings, not THE SON OF GOD
Again you err, for the word “angel” is just the English substitution for Hebrew and Greek words that both simply mean “messenger”. When the “messenger” in question is thought to be a spirit being, English translators use the word “angel” – but spirit being or not, the Hebrew and Greek scriptures call them “messengers”. Let me show you that same verse in the Young’s Literal Translation…
For to which of the messengers said He ever, ‘My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee?’ and again, ‘I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?’
Surely you agree that Jesus was a “messenger” of God, right? So now, how would you answer the same question with the correct word “messengers” in it? You’d probably answer it, “Jesus! Jesus is the only messenger to whom God ever said, ‘Today I have begotten you’!”, right? And that would be the correct answer. The answer to Paul’s question – whether you use the literal “messenger” or the substitution “angel”, is Jesus.
So that question is not intended to say that Jesus ISN’T a “messenger” or “angel”. It’s intended to distinguish Jesus as above and greater than all the OTHER messengers/angels.
Jesus is most definitely a messenger of God. And if we accept the word “angel” to describe spirit messengers of God, then Jesus is most definitely an angel of God. Because the entirety of Revelation consists of Jesus (who is once again a spirit being in heaven) delivering a message from his and our God to John. And if Jesus – as a spirit being – is delivering messages for God, then Jesus is a spirit messenger of God, ie: an angel.
Besides, Jesus himself says within that very message that he is the beginning of the creation by God, ie: the first thing God ever created.
Cheers
gadam: This is the fate of the NT it contradicts its own Christology. I hope Mike and other non-trinitarians will notice this problem.
Not contradictions – just misinterpretations by flawed human beings.
Mike
Hebrews 1 shows us the superiority of Christ over the angels (messengers)
why is Christ superior or greater?– HE IS GOD and IS the creator of angels and also their adorable leader.
Pau To Hebrews :
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[16] For by him were all things created,
that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him :
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
AND THE WORD WAS GOD….
WHY YOU DON’T BELEIVE ?
Berean……let me paraphrase it for you OK?, “Jesus is the “only” “born flesh and blood human being, to become a Son of God,” yet, (the first of many) to come.
Satan wants you to believe Jesus didn’t come into his only true existence through a human birth process, and therefore is not of the human race. That is exactly what you false teachers are doing for your God, Satan.
Jesus represents the exact purpose God has in mind for all humans he chooses to save, He is the pro-type of all of the saved.
Did he not say, “whosoever overcomes “even” as “I have”, will be with me in my Kingdom , even as I have overcome, and am sit down in my Fathers kingdom?Trying to move Jesus away from humanity is the work of Satan himself, 2ths2. Trying to make him in the God you worship as your God , is the big “LIE” spoken of in, 2Ths 2 . That ‘LIE”, Which you preach for Satan, is a lie which Jesus himself will abolish at his return, just as it is written there, by his own mouth at his return.
peace and love to you and yours………….gene
Berean: Hebrews 1 shows us the superiority of Christ over the angels (messengers)
why is Christ superior or greater?It shows that Jesus BECAME as superior to the OTHER messengers of God as the name HIS GOD gave him was superior to theirs. His God gave him that name because, as God’s holy servant, Jesus faithfully carried out God’s commandments on earth. That’s why Jesus’ God gave him a name above all the other names in heaven (aside from God Himself, of course).
Berean: HE IS GOD and IS the creator of angels and also their adorable leader.
Can you imagine God ever being lower than the angels He created, and so had to be GIVEN superiority over them? Who GAVE God his superiority over the angels He created? The angels?
Can you imagine God the Creator being the holy servant of God the Not-Creator?
You’re doctrine requires people to believe nonsensical things, Berean.
Berean: AND THE WORD WAS GOD….
WHY YOU DON’T BELEIVE ?
I don’t believe that because it’s not what the Greek text says. The words John wrote teach that the Word was a god who was with the God in the beginning.
Again, can you imagine God being WITH God in the beginning? Like I said… nonsense.
Berean, do you understand that the most straightforward, word-for-word English translation of John 1:1c is, “and the word was a god“? These two scholars are vehemently Trinitarian, yet they say…
“Accordingly, from the point of view of grammar alone, [QEOS HN hO LOGOS] could be rendered “the Word was a god,….” – Murray J. Harris
“If a translation were a matter of substituting words, a possible translation of [QEOS EN hO LOGOS]; would be, “The Word was a god”. As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted.” – C. H. Dodd
Of course there are hundreds of other Trinitarian scholars who understand that “the word was a god” is a completely acceptable way to translate John 1:1c – and many dozens of Bibles that DO translate it that way. In fact, the first translation of the NT into a language that uses the indefinite article like we do in English translated it as “the word was a god” – and that was thousands of years ago, while Jesus’ own disciples were still walking the earth and people were still speaking the koine Greek language of Jesus’ time on earth! In other words, these Coptic translators understood the meaning of John’s Greek texts very well – because they spoke the same language at the same time. They knew that John wasn’t an idiot, saying that the Most High God was WITH the Most High God. They knew that John was saying that the one who was WITH the Most High God in the beginning was himself a god – as are all of God’s spirit sons.
Berean, I always wonder why you don’t become engaged in these discussions. For example, I know you won’t say a word about the possibility of translating 1:1c as “the word was a god”. You won’t make any kind of valid argument against it – or even try to refute that it is a perfectly acceptable translation of those Greek words. Instead, you’ll just post – big and bold – “all things were created BY him” – as if that solves the case. Why is that? To me, that says that you can’t defend your beliefs, but can only act as an ill-informed cheerleader, promoting them over and over. But doesn’t scripture tell us to always be prepared to answer those who question your beliefs? Hmm…
Anyway, you told me the first time that Jesus is our Creator. Then you told me that God created by Jesus. So I asked you again who our Creator was, and you didn’t answer. You’ve given me two different answers as to who our ONE Creator is. I’d like to know your FINAL answer. Who is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them? Give me a single name, please.
Berean: JESUS IS GOD BECAUSE HE IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
Jesus is a god because he is one of God’s spirit sons. All of God’s spirit sons are gods. Jesus is the first one that God brought forth into existence. Besides, your claim is irrational. The only begotten son of the human being King David will be a human, and may even someday be a king – but he’ll never be the King David who begot him.
This is simple common sense. If the Most High God begets a son, then that son will also be a god like his Father. But he’ll never be the very Most High God who begot him in the first place. One is the uncreated cause of all things, while the other was begotten (ie: brought into existence) by the uncreated cause of all things.
Gene: Satan wants you to believe Jesus didn’t come into his only true existence through a human birth process, and therefore is not of the human race.
John 8:58
Very truly I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I existed.
Gene, what did Jesus mean by those words?
Mike….. First of all , the word “I existed” is not in the text , Jesus said Before Abraham I am.
The word “before” used there does not imply a time period. But a rank or position of importance. The Jews used their tie to Abraham as their position of their importance. John the Baptist had the same problem with them, that is why he told the that God could raise up children to Abraham from the rocks if he wanted to. There tie with Abraham would not save them as they though it would. That is the same problem Jesus had with them to, they were relying on their relationship with Abraham, giving them their importance with God, and Jesus was simply telling them he was more “important” to them, then ABRAHAM WAS.
Mike…..Look up the word before in the Greek translation and you should see what I am saying.
Alway remember Mike , Satan wants to always make Jesus appear to be “different” then we are , and his ministers do the same, that is why they make him out to be a God. The idea of a “PREEXISTING ” , JESUS is also another of his deceptions also. It all works to move Jesus away from his human brother and sisters. He does it through his doctrines of “SEPARATION “, making Jesus appear different, destroying our “FAITH” in the power of GOD the Father, to work in us “EXACTLY” as He did in The human Jesus, by the “Exact” same way. So he produced all these false teachings about Jesus , by his servants the trinitarian’s Mike read 2 Ths 2. It’s all there brother. That man of sin , is the false “image” of Jesus, Which turns the “Image ” of Jesus into a “PREEXISTING ” GOD.
peace and love to you and yours……..gene
Berean…
Revelation 1:1
This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon come to pass.
1. Is Jesus a messenger of God?
2. Is Jesus a spirit being now?
Angel: A spirit messenger of God
Mike….you are right Jesus is the messenger who delivered What was given him from God the Father, and he delivered it to John another messenger of God , who delivered it to the Churches. Just that simple, Jesus is not an, angelic ” being”, he is the “messenger”.
peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Gene: First of all , the word “I existed” is not in the text , Jesus said Before Abraham I am.
No Gene, not “before Abraham I am”, but “before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE I am”.
“before Abraham GINOMAI, I am”
And what does the Greek word “ginomai” mean, Gene? Look it up for yourself, but here’s the definition of it:
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
I’ve told you this before, and you just walked away from the conversation. Now I’m asking you to stand and defend your claim – which you make clearly against the evidence.
The words are, “before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE, I am“.
Do some checking on your own, and either acknowledge that the word “ginomai” is in John 8:58, or make a claim that it isn’t in that verse. And once you acknowledge that the word IS in the text, please explain to me what these words by Jesus mean:
“before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE, I existed”.
Do you see what I’m doing here, Gene? I’m once again giving you the opportunity to correct some false information that you’ve spread on HN for many years. Will you correct yourself and acknowledge the word “ginomai”? Or will you ignore this post like you did the last time – only to come back weeks later and make the same erroneous claim that it says, “Before Abraham I am” ?
Gene, it does NOT say “before Abraham I am”. It DOES say, “before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE, I am”.
Please either prove me wrong, or be honest enough to admit your mistake, and correct it so you don’t continue to preach falsehoods.
Gene: Mike….you are right Jesus is the messenger who delivered What was given him from God the Father, and he delivered it to John another messenger of God , who delivered it to the Churches. Just that simple, Jesus is not an, angelic ” being”, he is the “messenger”.
Yes, Jesus is a messenger of his and our God. But Jesus is also a spirit being again in heaven – restored to the glory he had alongside his God before the world began. And a spirit being who is a messenger of God is, by definition, an angel.
Jesus is the foremost angel of God – higher than all the other angels.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
Jesus will command with the voice of an archangel because that’s exactly what he is now. Michael is also an archangel (and there are probably many others whose names we don’t know), but Jesus’ God gave Jesus a name above all those other archangels. So while he’s not the only one, he is the highest among them.
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