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Hi Jodi,
You asked:
Can you explain speaking directly to the context of Matthew 1 how it is NOT telling us that Jesus is a true son of Abraham and David through Joseph?
Matthew has a pattern throughout the list of generations…so and so begat so and so…UNTIL the list comes to Joseph, then the pattern stops. It does not say or imply that Joseph begat Jesus. Instead, the pattern changes and emphasizes that Joseph was married to the woman of whom Jesus was born.
15Eliud was the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary,
of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Also, as I have pointed out to you months ago, “of whom” is written in the feminine pronoun and refers to Mary.
Jodi,
You said:
Now how is Mary going to be able to be found with child without her knowing Joseph first?
Such a miracle (a sign to identify the great coming king of the house of David) could only be found if it was of the Holy Spirit.
If God could make a woman from Adam’s rib, He could make an egg fertile without a sperm to make the flesh body. Also, the spirit of a child is placed there by God, not the man anyway.
LU
Hi LU,
YOU:
Jodi,
This passage is not referring to Jesus either:
Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
ME:
Of course it is not, it is referring to those that are resurrected when he returns. Not sure where you gathered I was applying it to Jesus. Let me clarify my position,
Jesus died, and without his flesh being allowed to see decay, he was raised from the dead and received the PROMISED Holy Spirit. We are raised from the dead and according to Ezekiel 36 and Paul’s teachings, we are to receive the PROMISED Holy Spirit ALSO. WE are heirs of God, JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST. Along with Jesus we are HEIRS of God’s Spirit.
and,
those that are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God
and,
we are to be made in the image of the Son so that he will be a firstborn of many brethren.
So can you see it LU, what this all directly teaches you?
Jesus’s brethren are raised from the dead receiving God’s Spirit where it causes them to walk in all of God’s ways. Such equates to being led by the Spirit of God and if you are led by the Spirit of God you are then a Son of God. MOREOVER such ALSO EQUATES to how it is that we are made in the image of the Son so that he could be a firstborn of many brethren. He too was raised receiving the Spirit according to a promise, just as we are promised. Which is exactly why we are told that we are heirs of God, JOINT heirs with the anointed Jesus. What does this all tell us also, that Jesus himself thus is a Son of God because he is led by the Spirit of God.
Let me also add, that Isaiah’s prophecies concerning Jesse’s son who has the Spirit of YHVH upon him, are not yet completed. They are to begin to be completed when this SON OF MAN returns in our Father’s glory, where dwelling within him and leading him is the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Reverence for YHVH. This MAN is going to accomplish YHVH purpose that He declared from the beginning, why we are told that all things were made by reason of and for him. This man brings forth life and peace when he comes to sit on his father David’s throne ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, where he is an eternal firstborn according to the Spirit that directs all his ways.
LU, this is all directly from scripture I have given time and time again.
Hi LU,
YOU:
Hi Jodi,
You asked:
Can you explain speaking directly to the context of Matthew 1 how it is NOT telling us that Jesus is a true son of Abraham and David through Joseph?
Matthew has a pattern throughout the list of generations…so and so begat so and so…UNTIL the list comes to Joseph, then the pattern stops. It does not say or imply that Joseph begat Jesus. Instead, the pattern changes and emphasizes that Joseph was married to the woman of whom Jesus was born.
15Eliud was the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary,
of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Also, as I have pointed out to you months ago, “of whom” is written in the feminine pronoun and refers to Mary.
ME:
16 And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Yes Mary begat Jesus, that doesn’t change the fact that Matthew is establishing Abraham to Jesus biologically where we were led from Abraham to Jacob and then to Joseph. How perfect it is that Jesus’s biological father that leads him to David and Abraham, is actually the husband to the mother who begat him. Who would of thought of such a thing, Jesus having his bio dad actually be the husband of his bio mom? All done through the power of the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary.
The given truth from Matthew 1 verses 1-15 just doesn’t become null and void when you get to verse 16.
Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation (GENESIS, source, origin, lineage, ancestry) Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; ….15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
Matthew is giving us the DNA line that establishes Jesus as the biological son of David and Abraham. Matthew doesn’t go from Jesus to Abraham he chooses to start from Abraham to lead us to Jesus. By verse 15 were are led up to Jacob who we know is the biological father of Joseph. As said, verse 1-15 doesn’t become null and void just because verse 16 changes in pattern.
Likewise, we don’t interpret verse 16 just to make verse 17 that Matthew uses to back up verses 1-15, null and void either.
17 So all the generations (GENEA, fathered, begotten, of the same stock) from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
Who comes in between Abraham and our anointed Jesus, where Matthew is establishing that Jesus is the biological son of Abraham and David, Jacob and Joseph do!
Additionally, the PURPOSE of the virgin birth ITSELF is given to you in Isaiah 7, it was for a SIGN (a miracle/ an act of the Holy Spirit), that the Great King and Savior of the house of David would come. Everything to do with a son of David and NOTHING to do with a pre-existing god becoming some one of a kind half-breed being.
Hi LU,
YOU:
If God could make a woman from Adam’s rib, He could make an egg fertile without a sperm to make the flesh body. Also, the spirit of a child is placed there by God, not the man anyway.
ME:
Jesus is a human being of which is a certain kind of flesh. If God can create heaven and earth with two humans male and female made to reproduce after their own kind by sperm to egg, He can make a virgin pregnant with her betrothed husband’s seed.
From scripture my understanding is that the spirit of a human is their mind that exists because of their brain. That spirit develops through both nature and nurture. When the brain is dead the person’s spirit is dead. Without a live body there is no living spirit. A topic for another thread!
Jodi,
You said:
If God can create heaven and earth with two humans male and female made to reproduce after their own kind by sperm to egg, He can make a virgin pregnant with her betrothed husband’s seed.
Do you recall how the angel appeared in the dream to Joseph shortly after he found out that Mary was pregnant, and spoke to Joseph words of comfort and encouragement to take Mary as his wife? None of those words said anything about using Joseph’s sperm and that the child was actually his. If the child was biologically his, that would have been a great time to tell him, but he was told this instead:
Matt 1 20But after he had pondered these things, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to embrace Mary as your wife, for the One conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a Son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus, because He will save His people from their sins.”
The angel did not say to Joseph: “She will give birth to YOUR Son.” The angel said that Mary will give birth to A Son.
LU
Hi LU,
I read your opening and ending statements with the below passage you gave,
John 12: 36…These things Jesus proclaimed, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37But though He had performed so many [p]signs in their sight, they still were not believing in Him. 38This happened so that the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke would be fulfilled: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40“HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WILL NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART, AND [q]BE CONVERTED, AND SO I WILL NOT HEAL THEM.” 41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke about Him.
LU, there is no scripture that says YHVH is the Father and the Son along with the Holy Spirit. You are going to need a lot more than the passage above to try and prove such. I would argue of course that such a notion contradicts scripture.
Jesus does not do all things in the Father’s name where that name is also his own name.
These passages speak to your error,
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; 26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:
LU, JESUS IS A SERVANT to the LORD who created heaven ALONE.
JESUS IS A MESSENGER unto the LORD who created the earth by HIMSELF.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles….5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted*, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
The LORD who created the heavens and earth and did so ALONE all by HIMSELF, put HIS Spirit upon the son of Jesse and called him into righteousness for him to be for a light where he would be the LORD’S messenger preaching the LORD’S WORD.
I will restate the biblical fact that couldn’t have been made more clear by Isaiah,
JESUS IS A SERVANT to the LORD who created heaven ALONE.
JESUS IS A MESSENGER unto the LORD who created the earth by HIMSELF.
Jodi,
Matthew’s genealogy establishes that the husband of Mary has David in his lineage among other things the genealogy shows such as significant historical events and number of generations. Matthew’s geneology does not use the words the “father of” Jesus but instead “the husband of Mary” who gave birth to Jesus. The emphasis is on who the husband of Mary had in his lineage. This establishes that Jesus, legally, is from the line of David and Solomon, not biologically through Joseph but legally through Joseph since Joseph is married to Jesus’ mother.
Matt 1:16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary
of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Jodi,
The “servant” here and “messengers” in Isaiah 44:26 are the prophets of God and apostles sent by God in general as opposed to the false prophets. I do agree that the Son serves his Father faithfully. We differ in that I believe that the Son served his Father faithfully during creation and after creation, before Mary and after Mary as the biological SON of God, not as a servant who is like Moses, who is not a bilogical son of God. Serving one’s own father would show perfection as a son. Jesus serves as a son over His house, Moses served as a servant in God’s house. See here:
Hebrews 3:
1Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession: Jesus; 2[a]He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. 3For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. 5Now Moses was faithful in all [b]God’s house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the boast of our [c]hope.
If you are trying to say that the Son couldn’t serve within the unity that created the world then you don’t understand that the Son is the “outstretched Arm” of that Unity of YHVH that stretches out the heavens and the earth.
If you are saying that the Son could not have served in creating the heavens and the earth because the scripture says that the LORD maketh all things…by Himself and was alone, then you don’t understand the speech of unity. For instance:
The church is a unity and is one body. That one body, ALONE makes up the church of Christ who is its Head. You realize that the one body is actually made up of many bodies/members, and that ONE body ALONE makes up the church. Then there is the whole idea of there being ONE CHURCH but wait…in Revelation there are seven churches spoken about. This is what I mean when I mention the speech of UNITY. The unity called the church has many members, the UNITY OF YHVH has more than one member. The church ALONE is the body of Christ, YHVH ALONE created the heavens and the earth. The unity of YHVH, which has more than one member, created the heavens and the earth ALONE.
Many scriptures speak to the fact that the Son was very much involved in the Genesis creation, the creation that will pass away and the Son is also involved in the new creation. Therefore, YHVH who created ALONE, is a unity of more than one member.
Think about it. LU
Jodi,
The “servant” here and “messengers” in Isaiah 44:26 are the prophets of God and apostles sent by God in general as opposed to the false prophets. I do agree that the Son serves his Father faithfully. We differ in that I believe that the Son served his Father faithfully during creation and after creation, before Mary and after Mary. Serving one’s own father would show perfection as a son especially a divine Son. Jesus served as a son, Moses served as a servant.
Hebrews 3:5 4And every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. 5Now Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house, testifying to what would be spoken later. 6But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are His house, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope of which we boast.…
If you are trying to say that the Son couldn’t serve within the unity that created the world then you don’t understand that the Son is the “outstretched Arm” of that Unity of YHVH that stretches out the heavens and the earth.
If you are saying that the Son could not have served in creating the heavens and the earth because the scripture says that the LORD maketh all things…by Himself and was alone, then you don’t understand the speech of unity. For instance:
The church is a unity and is one body. That one body, ALONE makes up the church of Christ who is its Head. You realize that the one body is actually made up of many bodies/members, and that ONE body ALONE makes up the church. Then there is the whole idea of there being ONE CHURCH but wait…in Revelation there are seven churches spoken about. This is what I mean when I mention the speech of UNITY. The unity called the church has many members, the UNITY OF YHVH has more than one member. The church ALONE is the body of Christ, YHVH ALONE created the heavens and the earth. The unity of YHVH, which has more than one member, created the heavens and the earth ALONE.
Many scriptures speak to the fact that the Son was very much involved in the Genesis creation, the creation that will pass away and the Son is also involved in the new creation. Therefore, YHVH who created ALONE, is a unity of more than one member.
Think about it. LU
Lu…..”hear O Israel, the LORD our GOD is “ONE” LORD, He is not more then “ONE”. , THAT IS IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE WHAT JESUS SAID.
We’re do you feel you people have the right to trespass his words?, “you shall have not other GOD , BESIDE ME”.
Even Jesus said ““that they might know “You” the “ONLY” TRUE GOD.
Seems Jesus knew clearly who was the “ONLY” TRUE GOD. Just as all “true” believers do also, according to scriptures, “but unto “US”, (true believers) , there is but “ONE” GOD and one mediator between men and God, the “MAN” Jesus the anointed one.
WHY is it you people never address those scriptures, are they not in you bibles, or do you people feel you PEOPLE SOMEHOW HAVE THE RIGH TO JUST IGNORE THEN. Do you people actually believe you will not have to give an account for ignoring them? As far as Jesus’ linage goes, he certainly is an offspring of king David, that is clearly established in scripture , not only by the prophets, but by Jesus own word himself.
He was not any kind of “PREEXISTING” being , who was “MORPHED” into a human body. That is a complete lie . There is no scripture that connects or says there is a trinity of God, as ” God the Father, God the son, God the Spirit” doctrine. That is a false teaching , created by the “apostate churches”. Who will give a account at the return of Jesus by his own mouth for the LIE they have preached , “2ths2.
peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Hi Gene,
It is truly remarkable isn’t it, how many scriptures time and time again are treated as if they don’t exist and thus they then are never applied directly where they need to be in order for someone to have the actual truth.
Jesus said, “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”
Paul said, “6 But to us there is but ONE God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath MADE that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
For LU to turn and tell us that there is one God that consists of the Father and the Son, is as you said it, a lie, a lie that couldn’t possibly be more blatant against the direct word.
Jodi
LU is certainly closer to the truth than you and Gene ….
YOU, YOU PREACH A CHRIST OUTSIDE THE LAW AND YOU TWIST THE SCRIPTURES WITHOUT YOU REALIZING … I HOPE
GOD FORGIVE YOU, BECAUSE YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOINGJodi……Amen , Satan has done an amazing Job of deceiving this whole world, even in and through Christianity . This was prophesied to happen, even by Jesus, and the Apostles.
These “many”, are saying not only Jesus is the Christ, they are saying he is a God, Christ , bringing the judgement of the “ONLY” TRUE GOD, On themselves , woe are they, unless they “REPENT”.MY hope and prayer is that they will come to see the truth, and stop commuting “IDOLATRY ” . BY turning Jesus into A GOD, and remember the warning from John, “little children keep yourselves from “IDOLS”. Turning a man into a God, is committing “IDOLATRY”.
Peace and love to you and yours…………gene
Turning a man into a God, is committing “IDOLATRY”.
Majority here don’t Say Jésus IS a God
BUT WE Say HE IS THE SON OF GOD
AND IN HIM DWELLETH
all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Berean………The law says there is “only” one true God, and even Jesus said that, you say there is three, so who is outside the law? Where did Jesus ever use this term , “God the Son” at> please show us where Jesus “EVER” said that.
The only ones preaching that, are you trinitarians and people like you saying Jesus is God, and saying Jesus himself is the very word of God , “himself”, even though he does tell us what God the father tells him to tell us, that does not make him God’s words himself. Except if you apply that as saying Jesus is the fulfillment of Gods word in the flesh, as Jodi brought out.Jodi and I are telling you people the truth, we are both bearing wittiness to you that your are not of the truth, or you would be agreeing with us.
Peace and love to you and yours ……..gene
Good Morning LU,
You had brought up a passage from Hebrews 1, where you have applied the wrong person to the text.
Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.13 But to which of the angels said HE at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
The Lord of verses 10-12 is He who is then in verse 13 speaking of Jesus, but you want to say the Lord in verse 10 is Jesus, so then Jesus is speaking to himself in verse 13? NO!
Paul is quoting directly from the anointed king David from Psalm 102 in Heb 10-12. David was speaking of our one God the Father, he was not speaking about his future son whom he knew that the Lord his God would raise up from the dead not allowing his flesh to see decay. Jesus died and was raised BECOMING the firstfruits. Jesus was CHANGED, MADE a firstborn of many brethren, and out of those who would be changed he was the only messenger of God who would be anointed to sit at God’s right hand. A Son of Man anointed above his fellows.
1 Corinthians 15: 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and BECOME the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet…51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Psalms 8:1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
Luke 22:69 Here after shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
LU, the Lord of verse 10-12 who made heaven and earth who does not change, says unto the Son of Man in verse 13, that HE will bring him to sit at His right hand until enemies are made his footstool.
Gene
YOU DON’T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO VERSES
COLOSSIANS 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
AND
Luk4:1
And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
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