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Gene said:
Carmel……when he was resurected from the Grave, he was the First one from humanity to be born into the kingdom of God and the first human being given eternal life.Gene, you are so far off.
“But if I with the finger of God cast out devils,
no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.” (Luke 11:20)Q.
How does this verse square with what you just said.A.
It does notCare to comment?
Likewise, God alone created you, but He did that THROUGH your parents.
If he did it “through” our parents, then he DIDN’T do it alone.
Your logic fails!
Proclaimer……Again you twist scriptures to meet your false assumptions, it dosen’t say ‘”he” , it says the same (God) was in the beginning”, you continue to force our text to say what in fact it is not saying.
Peace and love to you and yours………..gene
Berean and all……..let’s have a little bible study , please pay close attintion to the subject matter, and the “exact” wording, you may be supprised to what it really shows.
John 8:53….. Are you “greater then”, our father Abraham, who is dead, and the prophets; and you say , if a man keep my sayings , he shall never taste of death.
Now that sets the descussion , it was about who is the “greatest” Jesus or Abraham and the prophets. Can we all agree with that so far?
John 8: 54…..Jesus answered, “if I honour myself, my honour is nothing : it is my Father that honours me; of whom you say, that he is your God:
John 8:55…..”yet you have not known him ; but I “know” him :(a present tense statement) and if I should say I “know” him not , (another present tense statement) I should be a liar like you: but I “know” him, and keep his saying.
John 8: 56….. your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8 : 57…… “then said the Jews unto him, you are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham? ( Jesus never said that or even implied it either that is how those blind Jew took what he was saying , just as the blind guides of today take it also).
John 8: 58……Jesus said unto them, verily, varily, I say unto you , before Abraham “was” , I am.
The word there for “was” , comes from the Greek word “ginomai” means “caused to be”. the word for “cause ” implies a “reason for being”.
Jesus was showing his importance, to them , by saying he was ahead of Abraham in the creative plan of God for humanity. He prexisted Abraham in the plan of God. He was not saying he was alive before Abraham was at all.
Next point, notice Jesus did not say he “knew” God, as in a past , but he “knows” God, as in the present. He said it three times, never using any past tense expressions. Had Jesus known God in the past before his birth he would have used that expression.
As I said Berean, there is more in the text then first meats the eye, to them who have eyes to see it.
Peace and love to you all and yours………gene
Edj
you
Berean said:
The Father speaking to the Son
Why are you adding to God’s Word what it does not say?Me
Edj
If you read carefully the text of Hebrews 1 from the beginning, you will realize that indeed, it is indeed the Father who speaks to the Son in the verses that I have quoted.
I put in red what concerns God (the Father)
Maybe I forget …God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
[3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
[6] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
[7] And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
[8] But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
[9] Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
[10] And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
[11] They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
[12] And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
[13] But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[14] Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?Gene
JOHN 8 [53] Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
GREATER
meizwn
meizon
mide’-zone
irregular comparative of megaV – megas 3173; larger (literally or figuratively, specially, in age):–elder, greater(-est), more.Hi Mike,
YOU: One of Jesus’ many names is “the Word of God”.
He is not called that because he is a literal word(s) God spoke.
He is called that because he is God’s preeminent spokesman.
Just like the spokesman for the King of Abyssinia was named “the Word of the King” (Kal Hatze). That human being wasn’t literally a word that the King of Abyssinia uttered, Gene. He was named “the Word of the King” because he spoke on behalf of the King.
Jesus is named “the Word of God” because he speaks on behalf of God.
ME: Mike your reasoning above makes PERFECT SENSE,
ONLY WHEN IT IS A REFERENCE TO HUMAN BEINGS.
HOW ON EARTH
YOU PUT GOD, CREATOR, IN THE SAME BASKET AS HUMANS, HIS CREATURES, ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT
THEY WERE /ARE CURSED, SATANIC, AND MORTAL THROUGH SIN.
Now read WHAT GOD SAID:
Isaiah 55: 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts:
nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth,
so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.
10And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11So shall my word be,
Reading 10 above God simply made it clear that THE PHYSICAL PROCESS OF THE WORLD/WORLDS HAS TWO PERCEPTIONS, NOT JUST PHYSICAL BUT ALSO
SPIRITUAL. THE TRUTH HIDDEN AND UNKNOWN.Attention Mike
ALL ESTABLISHED/CREATED BY
GOD ALONE! SPIRIT, BY
GOD’S OWN WORD! SPIRIT!
NOT BY GOD ALONE!
WHETHER YOU ACCEPT IT OR NOT! WHY YOU MIGHT ASK?
VERY SIMPLE!
AS FLESH/PHYSICAL COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO
GOD’S OWN WORK;
IT IS HIS SPIRIT “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN WHICH GIVES LIFE/EXISTENCE TO
ALL OF GOD’S WORK! John1:1-4, John6:27, Colossians 1:15-20
WHATEVER IS PHYSICAL IN ACTUAL FACT IS
SPIRITUAL!!!
COMPRESSED INTO PHYSICAL AND IT ONLY BECAME HARD THROUGH CORRUPTION. THROUGH THE SIN OF THE REBEL IN HEAVEN IN WHICH “THE WORD” WAS/IS SEALED AS ETERNAL LIFE. IN ORDER TO ACCOMPLISH GOD’S WILL AND ALL WOULD BE RESTORED AGAIN BACK INTO PERFECTION. Well pinpointed out in
Matthew 3:9
And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’
I tell you that out of these stones
God can raise up children for Abraham.
Matthew 17:20 if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed,
you shall say to this mountain,
Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove;
and nothing shall be impossible to you.
A PERSON WITH 100% FAITH IN JESUS COULD SPEAK TO ANYTHING PHYSICAL AND IT SIMPLY DO WHATEVER HE ASKS AS “THE WORD” WITHIN THAT PARTICULAR PHYSICAL, JESUS, SIMPLY ACCOMPLISHES IT INSTANTLY.
OK Mike, within those stones, within that mountain, and within the entire process of the world/worlds there is
“THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of Man, as a SPIRIT.
SLAIN….and SEALED, PRECISELY
THE ACTUAL LIFE AND EXISTENCE OF ALL.
.John1:1-4, John6:27, Colossians 1:15-20
…..which shall go forth from my mouth:
UNLESS THE WORD OF GOD, SPIRIT, COMES OUT OF GOD’S MOUTH
NOTHING IS CREATED/HAPPENED.
THAT SPIRIT Mike is precisely THE SON JESUS.
AN INFINITESIMAL SPIRIT WHICH NO MICROSCOPE COULD BE INVENTED IN ORDER TO BE DETECTED! NOT ONLY THAT BUT
WITHIN THAT SPIRIT ABIDES ETERNALLY
THE FATHER!
SHIELDED AND PROTECTED BY HIS SON, and
THE SON EMPOWERED BY THE FATHER THROUGH THE
HOLY GHOST
And without that
SPIRIT “THE WORD”
THE FATHER COULD NOT FUNCTION AT ALL AS A CREATOR.
BEFORE CREATION STARTED THE STORY WAS THE OPPOSITE!
IT WAS
THE SON WITHIN THE FATHER!
WHICH WAS NOT POSSIBLE FOR THE FATHER TO CREATE!
AD EXTRA
OUTSIDE OF HIMSELF!
THUS GOD PRONOUNCED HIS FIRST EVER WORD
LET THERE BE LIGHT!
THAT LIGHT IS/WAS THE SON
THE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT.
THE ENTIRE INFINITE EXISTENCE WAS IN PITCH DARKNESS UP TO THAT MOMENT IN TIME! DEAD and at the same time FULL OF LIFE BUT STATIC!
NOW READ AND BE AWARE
….it shall not return to me void,
DO YOU THINK Mike,
JESUS CHRIST ON THE FATHER’S RIGHT HAND IS
VOID?
….but it shall do whatsoever I please,
and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.
NOW with your reasoning
can you tell me
WHAT HUMAN WORD CAN DO IN ORDER TO BE
EQUAL and COMPARED WITH GOD’S
WORD?
SO YOU PUT IT IN THE SAME BASKET LIKE YOU DID WHEN YOU COMPARED IT WITH
the spokesman for the King of Abyssinia AND SAID THAT HE
YOU: was named “the Word of the King” (Kal Hatze). That human being wasn’t literally a word that the King of Abyssinia uttered, Gene. He was named “the Word of the King” because he spoke on behalf of the King.
Jesus is named “the Word of God” because he speaks on behalf of God.
WITH EVERY RESPECT Mike
YOU ARE WRONG!
YOU SEE Mike, FOR JESUS TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF GOD WAS THE
TINIEST
TASK JESUS DID STILL DOING FOR GOD
BOTH AS A SPIRIT WHEN HE SPOKE/SPEAKS WITHIN GOD’S CREATURES UP TO THIS DAY AND ETERNALLY, AND AS A HUMAN WHEN HE WAS ON EARTH! FROM THE OTHER HAND
THE BIGGEST MYSTERIOUS TASK JESUS DID AND STILL DOING AS “THE WORD” SPIRIT, WAS AND IS WHEN HE WAS
SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WOLRD Rev.13:8.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel……No Mike is right, Jesus is called thec word of God because he speaks to us thec words of God, not “his” words, or don’t you believe what Jesus said , the word I am telling you are “NOT” my word , but the words of him who sent me.
Jesus plainly tell you THE WORDS HE WAS TELLING THEM WAS “NOT” FROM HIMSELF.
How much clearer can it get?
Peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Brean……did you see, (greater) or (greatest) , more , (as in more “important” then) if is obvisely what they were saying and meaning. The translation has it right even in the English.
They were comparing Jesus to Abraham, as in Greater in “importance”, they were not descussing his age, at that point of the text, the age thing came up later in the text . Why do you feel you have to change what is clearly meant?
Please go back and read it all and think about it?
Peace and love to you and yours…….gene
Gene
Yes verse 53 it is about the importance
but in verse 57,58 of the age …. Also it is clear for me that Jesus existed long before Abraham.Carmel……No Mike is right, Jesus is called thec word of God because he speaks to us thec words of God, not “his” words, or don’t you believe what Jesus said , the word I am telling you are “NOT” my word , but the words of him who sent me.
Yes he spoke God’s words. So he is the Word of God. He is the full expression of God.
He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called THE WORD OF GOD.
Thus, he the The Word of God.
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
Thus, he is Jesus.
When you’re an old man … it’s hard to turn back …
It’s easier to break an atom than to break a prejudiceEdj, …..The first man resurected from the dead to enter the kingdom of God, is what I said. But to help clarify it to you, he is the first man, as a human being, to be resurected back to life eternal, never able to die again. Does that make clearer for you?
Peace and love to you and yours……..gene
Berean…….OK, we now agree on that, now let’s move on, did you notice that Jesus never used the ( pastense) when referencing to God the Father? Can we agree on that also?
2….. question, what did Jesus call them? (The Jews talking to him) . Did he said they were liars?
3…..did Jesus say, I have “known ” God as in (past tense) no, he said I “know” him, as in (present tense).
Now my question to you is, if Jesus had “known” God, as in a Past life, don’t you think he would have said so? If he was trying to prove he “prexisted” ?
Let’s stop there for right now and see if we can agree, then we can move on brother. There is more to this, but want to go a step at a time.
Peace and love to you and yours……..gene
Proclaimer, wrong again , no he is NOT, the word of God “himself” he is called that “because” he spoke God the Fathers words to us. Me and Mike agree on that.
What you are not realizing is that these people think that he “IS” GOD’S WORD “HIMSELF” . God spoke “through him”, but that dosen’t make him God’s words, no more then if God were to speak through the prophets, you or anyone else. The “MAN” Jesus, carried God the Fathers message to us, a “mediator”
“Unto us there is but one God and one “mediator” between God and men, the “MAN” Jesus” .
A mediator represents someone or something, but he is not that person or thing he represents.
Can we agree on that?
Peace and love to you and yours……..gene
Carmel, Carmel, your so confused, Jesus is “NOT” that Spirit, that dwelt in him, no more then we are that Spirit either.
“But if the “Spirit” of Him that raised Jesus from the “dead” dwell in you, “HE” that raised up Christ (the anointed one) from the dead shall also quicken your mortal (dead) “BODIES” , BY THE SPIRIT THAT DWELLS “IN” YOU.
Carmel there you go how simple, how straight forward, can you get. You have no way around this scripture. It is the exact Same Spirit that was “IN” Jesus that raised him up from the dead, that is in us and will do the same thing for us also. That Spirit is the Spirit of the LIVING GOD, given to the “Man” Jesus , and us also who have it. That Spirit is God himself, therefore it says , “That God may be in you “ALL” and through “ALL”.
AND AGAIN. …..” know you not that your “body” is the temple of the Living God”.?
I do not seperate Jesus’ human identity and relationship with God from my own, he is the “FIRST” born of “MANY” brethern”.
Think about it Carmel.
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
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