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Man began to die yes. But it was some time after that Adam died. If Adam died immediately, then what do you call it when he passed away?
David, the soul that sins will die is not just earth based. And if these verses meant they will be no more (On Earth) then why not just say that.
The truth is that death on earth is only temporal because the wicked will be raised again at the resurrection. Death in the Lake of Fire (the Second Death) on the other hand is eternal and not temporary like the first death. In other words it is permanent and irreversible. It lasts forever and ever. They will never again be raised to life. Surely you would have to agree with that.If you agree that the wicked are cut off from God, then how are they alive? By what spirit do they obtain this eternal life in Hell? And if this is by God’s spirit, then God is in Hell and dwelling in sinners. Sure sinners live, but by the grace of God they have the Pneuma/spirit. But this is not eternal life or the eternal baptism of the Spirit which is eternal life. Rather, the spirit returns to God who gave it. How can a man live without God? Does scripture really teach that the wicked have eternal life in Hell and are kept alive by God’s own spirit for eternity? Is that not the conclusion of the traditional view of Hell? That God lives inside sinners forever just to keep them alive so they can feel pain.
I have said it before palal, but I want to make a point of this. You believe that the wicked have eternal life just as the righteous do. Your only distinction is where that eternal life is spent.
But scripture shows us that the destruction of the wicked is the polar opposite of eternal life and that eternal life is not inherent in humans, rather that it is a gift given and accepted by some, not all. We either are on the narrow path to LIFE, or the wide path to DESTRUCTION. Polar opposites. They are not both life are they palal?
Now I am also sure that you agree that the wicked are cut off from God. So if they are cut off from him, then how are they alive? By what spirit do they obtain this eternal life in Hell? I would appreciate an answer to this question from your view.
one more thing;if men was cut off as scriptures says due to the sin of Adam and other sins that occurred for being without God ,and now that God as provided a way through Christ to bring forth a sort of first fruits to be reconciled with God as he turn a blind eye toward our past sins ;what would become of those that REFUSE THAT GODLY HAND THAT IS BRINGING ETERNAL LIVE
is their an alternative live for them
if yes where in scriptures does it say that their is such a thing for them NO SCRIPTURE THAT I KNOW,except DEAD by removal .(all as to be all in God ,and their is no room with God for wickedness it does not matter how you see it or how you twist it it his dead on all roads,)just as it is LIFE WITH GOD THROUGH CHRIST ;THERE IS NO OTHER ROAD UNDER THE HEAVEN EXCEPT CHRISTQuote (palal @ June 15 2013,12:14) Have a listen to this 
, this is what finally convinced me of the reality of eternity: http://media.shepherdsfellowship.org/2012….019.mp3
http://www.gracechurch.org/media/6776/hell_under_fire/
if you listen to religion ,you have at the same time given up on God,for the scriptures are an open letter to all men ,and it is through that open letter that he will and does communicate to us individually according to our heart and mind , if you go to religion you only will get grind meat already shewed meat by others and so not benefit from a direct and truthfully connection with your creator ,this is what Christ meant when he said ;
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Jn 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Jn 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Jn 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”Jn 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
do not do like Adam who listen to his wife even he had received orders directly from God ,and so pay the consequence of it .
ok brother this is what I think… Adam did not BEGIN to die – but the same day he sinned he died..!! (Gen 2:17) That death was spiritual – Adam became separated from God in his spirit.. Adam experienced physical death much later when his soul separated from his body..
When we receive Jesus and are born again we are connected again in our spirit to God.. of the state we we’re in before we received Christ, Paul says, we were dead (in trespasses and sin).. Jesus says, Whoever believes in Me shall never die.. sure our souls may separate from our bodies in physical death..but we will never know spiritual separation again..Did you listen to it? Essentially your saying the scripture does not mean what is says. It's clear what it says, I think we are trying to use less clear scriptures so try and change is clear meaning. Also, is religion all a bad thing? i'm off to work, so cant reply till after 2pm
I agree with your above post DavidL. And this is what the baptism of the Spirit is about. It is about always being connected to God by a joining of our spirit with his.
Our spirits bear witness with God’s spirit that we are the sons of God.@ palal
I myself experienced Outer Darkness and it is truly terrible beyond words. I tried to explain it in a writing, but I know I haven't even got close to relaying what I experienced because English has no words to describe much of it.
That said, while I believe there is an Outer Darkness, a Hell, Hades, etc, these are not the Second Death and God didn't put me in the Lake of Fire with this experience. One can only hope that for their sake that men indeed do not have an eternal soul for that would be a terrible thing to endure for eternity.
Imagine 100 billion years from now taking a peak and seeing them screaming. Don't know about you, but as one of the rich of the world (First World) we are to consider the poor and help them. But are we to ignore the plight of these poor souls for eternity while we are embraced in the love of God and are rich. Sorry but I just can't see how we can ignore them and say, it doesn't matter because I am saved.
Thankfully, when we understand that much of what the bible says is eternal is in fact the word 'eon' meaning a time or an age.
There is a word for eternity and there is a word for age. The KJV didn't make this distinction very clear and as a result people have a predetermined view of an eternal Hell including translators of newer bibles. Even in light of the fact that it clearly says that Hell and all the dead in the sea etc will be thrown into the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death. The traditional view does not distinguish between Hell and the Second Death. It basically teaches it as the same thing.
I will be explaining this in a new page I will be adding to the “Is Hell eternal” pages.
Yes I agree that the second death as described in Scripture is permanent and irreversible.. I think where the confusion arises is maybe over our different concepts of ‘death’ itself..
I believe the second death is a permanent state of ongoing separation from God.. whereas I think what you are saying is that the final separation is NOT an ongoing state, but an ‘annihilation’ of the human soul in the lake of fire..
If this is the way we are thinking then I would say we should look at whether or not the human soul is immortal or whether it CAN indeed cease to exist..
Personally, although I have never seen a need to study this, I do believe that when God breathed into Adam the breath of life and “man became a living soul” that the living soul created was ‘eternal’ in the image of God – that man was made to live forever.. and when we talk of ‘death’ it is only the body that ceases to exist (until the resurrection).. but the soul continues on forever either in a state of fellowship with God, or in a state of eternal separation from God.. what exactly that state of separation consists of I cannot say, only that I would imagine it to be a similar state as to that of the demonic, or a continuation of the state that those in hell now exist in.. how you would describe that existence is probably how you would describe hell itself – if heaven is the absence of all things evil, then hell must be the absence of all things godly.. a state of ‘being’ where every characteristic of God – love, goodness, kindness, comfort, beauty, joy, peace, holiness, truth, pleasure.. is completely and utterly absent, for ever and ever and ever.. this is hell..!! (as I understand it)..
Blessings..!!I think the point in question maybe whether or not we have an ‘eternal’ soul..? reaching a conclusion on this should help us to understand better the nature of hell and the meaning of death..
Quote (palal @ June 16 2013,03:45) Did you listen to it? Essentially your saying the scripture does not mean what is says. It's clear what it says, I think we are trying to use less clear scriptures so try and change is clear meaning. Also, is religion all a bad thing? i'm off to work, so cant reply till after 2pm Quote Also, is religion all a bad thing? if they would they would not succeed in so a big way ;they know how to tickle the ears of men,
the truth does not care for pleasing men ,the truth is the truth no matter what and who listen
one verse is not the word of God but the whole scriptures are the written word of God ;so your understanding should include all of God's words
Yes, the whole of Gods word is counsel, but scriptures about a particular subject do not neutralise each other which your position on the “eternal destruction” is doing, the other scriptures talk about eternal fires and the wicked being destroyed in this fire, the Thessalonians adds that is “eternal destruction” destruction that goes on for eternity. Is this just and fair? It does not really matter what our human feelings are on the subject. The question seems to be weather we want to accept it's Gods view. We are “monsters of iniquity” as the Puritans say and don't understand the how bad the consequence of sin of our sin is.
Palel,
Q: Do you feel that God is love, and if so, then why would God command US to love and to FORGIVE our neighbor, etc, if as our FATHER, He apparently does the complete opposite? If you have an image in your mind of a God who has all power and yet chooses to keep humans by the zillions locked up in either darkness and terror or fire and burning forever and ever without mercy, and yet tells US to love and to forgive…… It does not make sense.
And where is human compassion? In real life would you smile as you watch people burn in a building our would you try and save them?
If you see an animal suffering, do you not want to put it out if its misery, or would you rather watch it continually suffer without end?
Eternal torment is a lie against God.We are taught fear in church or home.
Ever had the feeling that your time is up and suddenly you fear going to hell because you feel that you are imperfect? Scripture says that there is no fear in love. God it says IS love. “draw near to me” saith the Lord, “and I will draw near to you”.
How can you draw near to God when you fear God in an unhealthy way?
What do you think comes in the way of “drawing near to God”? I would suggest: sin, and not truly knowing the Father and the Son. Who do you think is behind that? The original liar from the start, the one who told them that they would NOT die – but they DID die.
The gift of God is eternal life, a gift is not forced on anyone. The wages of sin is death. Be wise.Hope this is coherent, it is late and my eyes are blurry from the screen. Do you only have a phone?
“Fear of the the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” Its an interesting angle about “Eternal torment is a lie against God” I find myself gradually rejecting and now accepting the hard parts I don't like in the bible, ie hell and damnation as if I do that, i'm inventing my own religion. John Stott's diatribe started with an emotional appeal which I feel as well, but need to reject as it just does not stack up, the bible tells me how it is and it's a dangerous thing to try and make it ben to my views. I do have a phone, but find it difficult talking, i'm on facebook and can message chat, im under [email protected]
Hi Palel,
No I meant 'do you only have a phone to post with on the forum', because you mentioned earlier that you were posting with your phone – that's all I meant.
I'll say more tomorrow.Quote (palal @ June 16 2013,16:15) Yes, the whole of Gods word is counsel, but scriptures about a particular subject do not neutralise each other which your position on the “eternal destruction” is doing, the other scriptures talk about eternal fires and the wicked being destroyed in this fire, the Thessalonians adds that is “eternal destruction” destruction that goes on for eternity. Is this just and fair? It does not really matter what our human feelings are on the subject. The question seems to be weather we want to accept it's Gods view. We are “monsters of iniquity” as the Puritans say and don't understand the how bad the consequence of sin of our sin is.
Ge 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
Ge 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.”Ge 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
Ge 3:2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,
Ge 3:3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ”NOW THIS IS WHAT THE SNAKE SAYS ''
Ge 3:4 “You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman.
Ge 3:5 “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”READ HOW NICELY THE SNAKE GOES FROM ANNULATE ONE COMMANDMENT AND SWITCH TO ANOTHER SUBJECT,WHO AS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ORDER GIVEN TO ADAM ,BUT MAKE IT AS SOMETHING INTERESTING TO POSSESS ,AND SO WAS DECEIVED ,
LET NOT BE DECEIVED BY OUR OWN EMOTIONS ,THEY ARE DEFINITELY NOT A TRUE GUIDE TO RELY ON,
LOOK HERE FOR THE TACTICS;
Job 1:9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied.
Job 1:10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.Job 1:11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
now read this and understand it ;
Job 1:20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship
Job 1:21 and said:
“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
and naked I will depart.
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised.”
Job 1:22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.again;
Job 2:4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life.
Job 2:5 But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”Job 2:8 Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes.
Job 2:9 His wife said to him, “Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!”but ;
Job 2:10 He replied, “You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?”
In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.did Job let his emotions guided him
even if his love ones came to him with the wrong advise ? NOthen;
Job 2:11 When Job’s three friends, Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite, heard about all the troubles that had come upon him, they set out from their homes and met together by agreement to go and sympathize with him and comfort him.
this now his friendship with the ones he know best comes to comfort him ,but did they
or did they come to condemn him based on their own faulty beliefs and concepts , question;is there any changes sins then
I DO NOT THINK SO,JN 12:31 “ Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world(SATAN) will be cast out.
Lk 21:8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them.
Lk 21:22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.Jn 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world(Satan and his wickedness) will be driven out.
only the truth of God can stand against the flames of hell (corruption)
A interesting lecture on our debate: http://www.gracechurch.org/media….of_hell
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