February 13, 2015 at 10:03 pm #789083February 13, 2015 at 10:25 pm #789084
The god which people worship who punishes people in eternal conscious torment is not the God I know.
A lady told me, “It’s not God who does that, it’s Satan…. and people choose to go there them-self”. I said “Why would anyone Choose to go there if it was true?” She didn’t answer. .. I asked her is Satan is stronger than God? She said “no”. She said she just believes what is written in the bible… I said “God gave us a mind and a heart to think and question these things. Those who choose to believe in eternal conscious torment do not love their “neighbor” as they should, they are merely trying to save their own life.” I asked her if she would follow God if there was no afterlife. She said “yes”. That’s good. Me too. I would have a curiosity to the creator of the world, and an adoration of him and all that he is even if this was all there was.
A belief that a loving God who is love, punishes those who do not choose to follow him in punishment forever and ever with out end are not perfected in Love, imo.February 14, 2015 at 12:12 pm #789095
John clearly saw in his vision that Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire which is the second death. Anyone who tries to change these words will be cursed.
I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book
So clearly, if we do not wish to be reckless regarding the truth, we need to believe this truth:
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
So there you have it. Hell is clearly not eternal. It is thrown into the Second Death.
What you are advocating @davidl is essentially that the wicked will also inherit eternal life, albeit in a different place. But the wicked shall perish instead of living eternally David, even the most quoted scripture in all the Bible teaches this:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Its destruction/perish or eternal life.
The crazy part about most people that teach an eternal Hell including yourself as well as the guy in the video is that they often say that they wish there was no such thing as an eternal hell. But then they ignore the scriptures that clearly teach their conviction.
He is a double-minded man, unstable in all he undertakes.
Surely you need to make the effort to be single-minded here. If your heart tells you that you wish there was no eternal hell, and if scripture also bears witness of this, then surely there is only one thing to do, believe the scriptures.
This false teaching has led many to reject God and it is totally unnecessary and shameful to block the way of salvation. Many see such a God as being no different than Adolph Hitler with the exception that Hitler did not subject people to suffering for eternity. How dare we tell God that he is like that when scripture clearly reveals the true nature of God. We should be teaching people that through God’s only son, we can have eternal life. If we reject the one whom God sent, then we will not have eternal life and will instead perish as it is written.
While I am not advocating that we ignore Hell because there is certainly a Hell before the Great Judgement, (I was even shown it in a vision), instead I am saying that we should not teach that it is eternal, when clearly it is thrown into a Lake that causes the second death. It is this fire that will also burn up the old heavens and earth too. Scripture bears witness to this event.
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
You have two choices: believe these scriptures and the conviction in your heart, or ignore the conviction and these scriptures.February 14, 2015 at 2:05 pm #789103AndrewADParticipant
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I haven’t read all the posts on this thread,so I don’t know every ones opinions here.I’m not even certain what the ts opinion is but I do know that I once believed in eternal torments which I no longer do.How could a”loving God” condemn people/souls/spirits that he supposedly made damn them in any case to eternal torment? Why would a just and loving God do such a thing? Would a real God “of love” do this?-eternally torment souls he made and predestined to live on this world/earth do this? That is make men for eternal torment for temporal sins? Many claim God is just,yet the so called grace is unjust,that it is not fair but according to whatever God wants in his unjust plan of so called grace.Grace being the unmerited favor which God bestows on whomever he wills.And how does one dare to claim they have this unmerited favor?On what grounds?Because they claim to believe in Jesus?,:when even Jesus said many who call me Lord and do good works will be rejected.Even Paul the preacher of “grace” says men will be judged according to their works,yet at the same time declares over and over that we are not saved by works but by Faith-he even goes so far as to call it the”law of faith”. So “faith” in itself is now a law according to St.Paul.February 14, 2015 at 3:08 pm #789105
It seems these days we have a one-eyed view of God as some sort of benevolent old sugar-daddy who exists just to dote upon our every idealistic whim and self-centered fantasy..
Yes, God IS Love (that is, the very essence of selflessness), but He is also GOD – THE SOURCE OF ALL POWER, MAJESTY, GLORY AND AUTHORITY…!!!
Romans says, “Behold therefore the goodness AND SEVERITY of God…
God’s nature is both perfect Justice, AND perfect Love – both of these are equally powerful, and neither cannot be compromised… God’s great Love is made manifest to us through the great sacrifice of Jesus who alone satisfied the just requirements of God’s holy Law through His own life, and death on the cross… either we accept God’s plan of salvation, or we bare the consequences of our sin alone, forever (because we can never pay the price required)…”He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” – John 3:36
Death by very definition in not annihilation, or how could there be a second one..!?!?
God does not torture anyone…He just hands you over to the things that you really wanted – things you put in place of His love..February 14, 2015 at 3:30 pm #789106
Why is Hell eternal…? – because we have sinned against an eternal God.February 14, 2015 at 3:40 pm #789107February 14, 2015 at 3:46 pm #789108
Hell is eternal – Heaven is eternal…without end.February 14, 2015 at 3:55 pm #789109
Really, what you are teaching on this site is more cult doctrine…(like what you teach about the trinity) – these are pretty much in line with what most Christian cults teach (including JW’s, Mormons etc)..February 14, 2015 at 4:01 pm #789110
Does the Greek word ‘aion’ simply mean an age or limited amount of time..?February 14, 2015 at 4:09 pm #789111
There is just SOOO MUCH evidence to the truth of Hell being eternal…!!!!
Hear the story of Bill Wiese who actually experienced the literal reality of hell – and knows it is FOREVER…February 14, 2015 at 7:04 pm #789112
DavidL, you could post 100 videos here, but scripture is the standard of truth regarding the doctrines that we should believe. Further, it is too easy to put your own spin on visions and experiences that we have. For example, I had a vision of Hell and was not told that it was eternal. However, I can see that if I had a predefined belief that it was eternal, then that might spill over into the testimony of this experience when telling it. I encourage all who speak of visions or experiences to not touch them with your own interpretations. And let’s face it, when people have such visions, they are not exactly told that it lasts forever and if a demon in Hell torments someone with that information, then are we to trust demons teachings on Hell. Surely they lie and torment souls. They are hardly bound to the truth are they.
So in order to convince myself and others that God will fry people in Hell for eternity while they are alive, you need to show us why these following scriptures are wrong:
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
Prove to us that Hell is not placed into the Lake of Fire that is the Second Death, and prove to us that man’s soul is eternal thus making the above scriptures wrong. When you can dispose of these 2 scriptures above, then we can move on to others. If you cannot change or show us why these scriptures are wrong, then you do not have a case and all the name calling about cults will not change our view. Jesus was in a cult according to the religious of his day.
Scripture is the standard here DavidL.February 14, 2015 at 10:09 pm #789118
Really, what you are teaching on this site is more cult doctrine…(like what you teach about the trinity) – these are pretty much in line with what most Christian cults teach (including JW’s, Mormons etc)..
It is disturbing to believe that God is like you say.
Show scriptural verses rather than videos – then look into your scriptural verses – but first examine your heart.
I assure you that this site teaches more truth than you would find in many denominations.February 14, 2015 at 11:43 pm #789123
I started reading this today and thought it was good. Can’t vouch for the whole article or the rest of the site.
Can’t remember how I stumbled across this page, but it is quite timely given the accusations that DavidL is levelling at some of the teachings here.February 15, 2015 at 5:36 pm #789137AndrewADParticipant
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I don’t see Paul who most Christians exalt above Christ,teaching eternal torment.The wages of sin is death-not eternal torment.Did Christ even die? Most Christians don’t think he did or that anyone dies now.Oh maybe the people in OT times had the grace of dying even as Job thought,so he could finally escape from Gods torments on this earth.
I remember when I first became a Christian thinking it just didn’t seem right that the greatest thing God ever did in sending his son Jesus to earth,also brought the doctrine of eternal suffering.Oh of course I came to think that very thought a sin in itself.To use your own mind is sin,to be brainwashed is holiness and grace.
These doctrines were around before Christ among the Persians and Greeks who ruled the Jews.And are just more fear tactics to make people conform.February 16, 2015 at 10:06 am #789143Ed JParticipant
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The doctrine of eternal suffering comes from Church-denominationalism,
who hold people in bondage to their systems of religion. The Bible
suggests that our suffering is but a temporary condition.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GODFebruary 16, 2015 at 11:38 am #789146
AndrewAd, (I’m getting confused here, there are three different members with similar names/initials!)
I also went through a dark stage where I questioned the eternal conscious torment belief, so much so that I became angry at the possibility that it was so and stopped praying. I eventually prayed and asked God if it was true… and told God how I felt in all truthfulness! At that moment I felt God’s love go through me from head to toe, and I knew that we can trust God. Thereafter, the scriptural verses in question made sense.
Not all denominations believe in eternal conscious torment.February 16, 2015 at 1:18 pm #789149
Good one miia. You asked God and of course there are plenty of scriptures about the fate of the wicked. The word ‘wicked’ and ‘perish’, ‘death’, & ‘destruction’ go hand in hand.
But like the Pharisees of old who blocked the way for many by claiming to be the gatekeepers of truth, not only did they persecute the messiah, but their attempts at making disciples made them worse people than they were before.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
In hindsight if we lived back then and followed the religious establishment, then we would have sided with the Pharisees. But if we asked God and searched the scriptures, then we would have walked with Christ. It is no different today.February 16, 2015 at 1:31 pm #789152terrariccaParticipant
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It is no different today.
absolutely trueFebruary 17, 2015 at 9:00 am #789191carmelParticipant
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prove to us that man’s soul is eternal thus making the above scriptures wrong.
GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE
Job 20:18 He shall be PUNISHED for all that he did, and yet shall not be CONSUMED: according to the multitude of his devices so also shall he SUFFER.
From the above it is clear enough, that Lucifer/Satan HIMSELF would never be consumed but HIS EVIL WOULD BE!
So all the ENTIRE CREATURES obvious from the spirit side point of view, would never be consumed eternally for sure AS WELL!
SO SOULS ARE ALL ETERNAL!
Matthew 18:8 …….rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into the ETERNAL FIRE
So the fact that it is eternal fire, it doesn’t mean that CRTEATURES WOULD BE ETERNALLY PUNISHED IN FIRE,
Matthew 25:41 …….Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels;
TILL THEY ARE ACCORDING TO GOD’S LOVE
Mark 9:49 Mark 9:49 For EVERYONE
BOTH HOLY FROM HEAVEN AND EVIL FROM HELL
will be salted WITH FIRE,….
IN ORDER TO BE ALL JUSTIFIED ON EARTH AS MAN,
AND EVENTUALLY BECOME PERFECT CHILDREN OF GOD
Peace and love in Jesus
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