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Thanks..ok (I still hope you’ll check out another Bible Dictionary definition for ‘Destruction’ sometime..) – so I’m thinking that the point in question is whether or not the second death (mentioned in Chapters 20,21 of Rev.) is in essence a state of extinction – where those condemned by this judgement are utterly and completely consumed to the point where they finally cease to exist altogether..complete annihilation..!! If this IS INDEED what you believe, can I ask – why does it matter..?? Is God somehow less loving if the torments go on forever instead of a thousand years..? (Like it’s somehow God’s fault..and has nothing to do with my own free-will..!!??) or is it that my conscience will ease up a bit if I think there’s going to be an end somewhere down the track – no matter what horrors I have to endure in the interim..?? (remember the deceitful heart of man, and his lying foe the devil) – these combined factors of fallen man and Satan endlessly work at ways to avoid being apprehended by the truth.. and if there is some appearance of a loop hole, some easing of conditions or avoidance of consequences..then, believe me, it will be exploited..!!
The reality of hell played very hard on my mind as a sinner.. it sounds silly now, but what I held onto as my only source of pitiful hope was something I’d once been told a preacher had said – ‘if you find yourself in hell, cry out ‘Jesus, Jesus’ and the devil will kick you out’.. That false bit of information (that seems so ludicrous now), was what I clung to.. in a similar way you may find that a sinner will hold onto the notion of an ‘finite hell’ as a means to hold onto his sin a little longer… until it is too late..
Blessings friend..!!
Eternal judgement is one of the foundation doctrines of our faith and most of these doctrines have changed as the Church has added thousands of years worth of tradition to them. For me what is important is that the truth shines out beyond the dark ignorance of our own minds and traditions. I believe that traditional Christianity is more wrong on such matters than many would believe.
Let’s face it, if God doesn’t burn people for eternity, then it could only be an attack on his character to say he does and no good thing comes from a lie. Even a conversion based on fear is not the same as one based on love. However, if he does burn people without end, then we just have to get use to that reality as we have no choice in the matter. But I have yet to see a conclusive scripture that teaches that man is eternal or exists forever even if they are sinners. On the contrary there are a number of witness verses that say the humans are not eternal (only the elect), and the wicked do not have eternal life/existence. So I have to go with those scriptures in order to keep a good conscience before God.
Jeremiah 7:30-33
30. “For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight,” declares the LORD, “they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.
31. “They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.
32. “Therefore, behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when it will no longer be called Topheth, or the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of the Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth because there is no other place.
33. “The dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the sky and for the beasts of the earth; and no one will frighten them away.@ palal
Forever means for an age. It doesn't mean eternity. It is the word 'eon'.
If it meant eternity, then Satan would be a god for eternity because it says that He is the God of this world which is the same word 'eon'. In other words in both cases it means AGE. Likewise when you say that the wicked suffer forever, that is the same word 'eon'.
1 Corinthians 2:6
We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the RULERS OF THIS AGE, who are coming to NOTHING.Age here is the world 'eon'.
palal, do they rule for ever?
2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.Age here is the world 'eon' too.
palal, This God being spoken of here is YHWH or Satan? Whoever it is, it is not saying the God of eternity, but the God of this world/age/eon.
The word 'forever/eon' does not mean everlasting. Each eon has a beginning and an end.
2 Timothy 2:15
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.Scriptures that contradict the traditional view of Hell.
Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
Psalms 21:9
“Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.”Psalms 37:10
What will happen to the wicked?
“For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.”Psalms 37:20
“But the wicked will perish:
Though the Lord’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.”Psalms 68:2
“As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.”Psalms 104:35
“Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.”Psalms 145:20
“The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.”Ezekiel 18:4
“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”Ezekiel 28:18
“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”Ezekiel 28:19
“All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.”Nahum 1:9-10
“What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.”Malachi 4:1
“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.”Part 01 – Is hell eternal?
Part 02 – Scriptures used to support an eternal hell
Part 03 – New Testament scriptures that dispel an eternal hell
Part 04 – Old Testament scriptures that dispel an eternal hellThe traditional view of Hell is that God burns sinners in a never-ending fire and for every second of eternity, they consciously suffer excruciating pain. But is this true or is it just another traditional teaching that doesn’t add up when you look at scripture? I would like to start with the following scripture to show how the traditional view is often at odds with God and scripture.
Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
Now we will take a look at a list of scriptures that seem at odds with the traditional idea of the nature of Hell. Remember we have already learned in the previous page that Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death. But even ignoring that Hell will suffer the Second Death and what that entails, these scriptures below dispel the idea that the wicked are consciously eternally tormented. Read on:
Psalms 21:9
“Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.”To be devoured means to be consumed so that what is consumed is no longer there.
Psalms 37:10
“For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.”If the wicked shall not be, then it means what it says. They will no longer exist.
Malachi 4:1
“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.”Once the wicked receive their reward for their sins, Yahweh will burn them up. When you burn up something, it simply means that there is nothing left to burn. When you burn a log of wood, at the point the log burns up, it is no longer a log, rather ashes.
Ezekiel 28:18
“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”If a person is brought to ashes, then they have been consumed by fire and no longer exist.
Psalms 37:20
“But the wicked will perish:
Though the Lord’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.”Isaiah 47:14
Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up.Again, the wicked shall be burned up.
Psalms 68:2
“As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.”Psalms 104:35
“Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.”Again, the wicked will be no more because they will perish. It is clear that the wicked will not exist eternally in a place of punishment.
Psalms 145:20
“The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.”Ezekiel 18:4
“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”So the soul that sins (and is not forgiven) it will die. That soul will be destroyed.
Ezekiel 28:19
“All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.”Nahum 1:9-10
“What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.”In this page, you have been shown Old Testament scriptures that clearly teach that the wicked will be burned up, turn to ashes, be destroyed, perish, and will be no more.
- Continue to Part 3: Scriptures used in support of the traditional view of Hell
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A new page has been added to this teaching. It lists scriptures that contradict the idea that Hell is an eternal abode of wicked living souls who suffer for all eternity in fire.
See it here:
Ill write some more later as off to work. I know enough about greek to know I don't know much. But the one thing I have learnt is that words have different meanings depending on their combinations. It's sort of like know and no. Jst because the word eon is used elsware does not mean it means the same things. Also, the OT scriptures were originally written in hebrew so your working on the greek translations of ther OT? I think the other thing to ask is why bible translators continue to say it's eternal destruction if it does not actually say that, I gather like me, you cant read hebrew and greek or know the grammar rules of 1st century greek, if thats the case, we cant really base our debate from them. Keeping that in mind, I will stick to English translations. I'll do some checking:)
be blessed!!!No one is denying that the destruction is eternal neither you, me, or any other poster here.
What we are denying is that humans who are eternally destroyed have eternal life or immortal souls and are thus never quite destroyed because they never fully arrive at the point of destruction. On the contrary, there are many scriptures that say that the wicked do not live forever and are no more.
How about some scriptures palal, rather than your own understanding. I know most will give credibility to scriptures, but people's own understanding is a dime a dozen.
I have quoted quite a lot of scriptures. It's up to people if they want to believe them or not. I realise I cannot force anyone to believe scripture, but the debate stops at scripture. Of course sometimes we need to delve deep into the meanings of the words. No problem with that.
And how about some refutations as to why the scriptures that have been quoted here are not saying what they appear to say. e.g., “they shall be burnt up”. It's not as if it is one or two obscure scriptures we are talking about. There is a whole raft of scriptures on the fate of the wicked and I haven't heard one good reason not to believe them.
there are rules to interpretation. 1.what does it say. 2.who was it said to 3. what was going on. 4. are there any scriptures about the same subject. also clear interprets unclear, is it meant to be clear?. so, going from there, with all the scriptures we have included, we can see from them that the sinners and saints are all raised for judgment and all have glorified bodies. the scriptures we have I wrote this Thursday on cell phone: quoted all talk about fire and burning and destruction. the anomaly seems too be the Thessiloians one says “eternal destruction” and reveals the destruction continues for eternity just as the saints are eternally alive. the problem is twofold, it says both states are eternal. so saying destruction is not an eternal state does not fit as it would say something different? I think the most telling points are the clarity of the chosen words by generations of translators, it's not unclear in original greek, also this anilationism is only recent theology opinion. I wrote all this on a cell phone!
@ palal.
We both agree that Hell is real and the Lake of Fire is eternal of which Hell is thrown into.
We both agree that life is eternal for the elect and that life is not eternal for the wicked or do you believe that life is also eternal for the wicked.So just as life is eternal for the righteous so it is that destruction is eternal for the wicked.
You just need to understand what the word destruction really means. You infer that eternal destruction means eternal existence of being ruined but never arriving to the point of destruction. I have yet to see a scripture that explains it that way.
Yet I can show a whole raft of scriptures that show it the other way and this way also has the advantage of not contradicting itself. In other words eternal destruction as meaning always destroyed is not an oxymoron like saying that they are eternally being ruined but never attaining destruction.
In the end this is the only point that I can see where we differ and it is a matter of understanding only as we both accept the scriptures.
But as I said, I can show you scriptures to prove what destruction in this fire really means, but I haven't seen you show me a scripture that explains it the way you say it is.
As usual I would consider any scripture and study it in order to get the truth of the matter. So up to you to show me a scripture where men suffer consciously in fire for all eternity. Until then, I hold to the scriptures that I have quoted and accept them at face value.
One thing that is clear to me from talking with others on this website is that many follow traditions that have been handed down and few there be that go against these traditions on the account of scripture. Perhaps they are afraid to go against tradition.
it's a simple question we return to, why did the HS put the words “eternal destruction” together if it is not “ongoing destruction for eternity” ? Why does it say what it says?
Have a listen to this
, this is what finally convinced me of the reality of eternity: http://media.shepherdsfellowship.org/2012….019.mp3
http://www.gracechurch.org/media/6776/hell_under_fire/Ok..you say these Scriptures dispel the traditional view of an eternal hell (and I WILL take a look at them..) but why do I feel like you’re avoiding the actual meaning of the word ‘destruction’ as found in any Bible Dictionary you happen to pick up…which puts it very black and white – not annihilation, not extinction..!!??
..you’re saying that the idea/belief of hell being eternal is not true, but rather a Christian ‘Tradition’ handed down to us..
you mention the ‘Second death’ – hell thrown into the lake of fire..but we know from Rev. 20:10 that the torment of this second death is an everlasting torment, “..and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
From the Scriptures you quote it’s quite obvious to me they are referring to the sinners life on earth, that will be destroyed by fire..(Psalm 104:35 “…sinners be consumed OUT OF THE EARTH..” – Ezekiel 28:18 “…and I will bring thee to ashes UPON THE EARTH..”) I really don’t see how you can use these verses to say that all the souls in hell will be ‘annihilated’ at the second death – there’s just no relevance or connection to hell or the after-life at all..
Matthew 7:13,14
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
Clearly the righteous inherit eternal life. But the traditional view which you support would have me believe that the wicked also have eternal life. The only difference being where that eternal life is spent. I do not hold this view and I am yet to see a verse that says humans have an eternal soul. Eternal life is a gift, not something that is inherent. And the reason for that is that he gives eternal life only to the righteous because if he gave eternal life to the wicked too, then that means that they would live eternally as sinners which is clearly not biblical.
I believe what this verse is teaching us polar opposites, (life & destruction) whereas the popular view is that there is no difference in meaning with the only difference being location of where that eternal life is spent.Thanks David. I am going to write a third page which deals with your concerns in this post.
It will be called something like,
“Scriptures used to support eternal suffering in Hell”.really you are getting mixed up in the meaning of words..the righteous inherit eternal life – the wicked eternal death.. eternal separation from God..
man died the day he ate the fruit in the garden.. spiritually he was separated from God ..Lake of fire – SECOND death..ETERNAL separation..FOREVER..
There are some pretty scary verses concerning hell, Rev. 14:10-11 says, “The same [those that worship the beast or receive his mark] shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone [reference to second death – Rev. 21:8] in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT [they are clearly not annihilated but are experiencing the never-ending reality of this tormented existence], who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
The last verse of Isaiah states, “And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Me: [obviously dead bodies] for their worm shall not die [but while they have ceased to exist on the earth, there is something about them ‘their worm’ – their agony..that shall not die], neither shall their fire [their torment] be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring to all flesh.” ..their bodies deceased – their souls in eternal, unquenchable torment..
In Matthew hell is referred to as both ‘unquenchable’ fire (3:12), and ‘everlasting’ fire (18:8) Jesus calls this everlasting fire, the fire “prepared for the devil and his angels.” (25:41)..which again is the second death.
While you say that you see nothing in Scripture to suggest eternal punishment – there is nothing that I’m aware of that says their suffering will ever cease..
You endeavour to make the verses you’ve shared mean that, but I feel you are confusing, or misunderstanding, the Biblical concept of physical life, with spiritual life and spiritual death…
Blessings..!!Quote (palal @ June 15 2013,19:28) it's a simple question we return to, why did the HS put the words “eternal destruction” together if it is not “ongoing destruction for eternity” ? Why does it say what it says?
Death on earth is only temporal because the wicked will be raised again at the resurrection of the dead. Death in the Lake of Fire (the Second Death) however is eternal and not temporary like the first death. In other words it is permanent and irreversible. It lasts forever and ever.
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