- This topic has 732 replies, 38 voices, and was last updated 2 months ago by
.
- Posts
Nick, in the parable of the rich man and the poor man, does it say the richman was more of a sinner then the poor man? No, The point of that parable has nothing to do with sin, but of “suffering”, the rich man may have not been as much a sinner as the poor man far as that goes, the parable was about how much suffering one had over the other in their life. It also has nothing to do with eternal suffering in a hell fire forever either. In fact the suffering of the rich man may be Gods plan to deliever him, remember JOB.
Remember parables are not literal they are “metaphors” and that metaphor was about sufferings in this life and the results that follow.
Think of it like the parable of the one who had his debts forgiven him and when his fellow servant ask him to forgive him of a small debt compared to what his master forgave him, he would not forgive him the debt, therefore when his master heard about it he called him and said to him, i forgave you of your very large debt and should you not have forgiven your fellow servant his small debt, and he had him delivered to the “TORMENTORS ” till he should pay all that was due him.
Not one word in the parable of the rich man and the poor man, has to do with “eternal” suffering, nor pay back for sin, that i can see writen there, just the amount of suffering each endured in their lives, and perhaps the mercy the rich man should have had.
That is the way i see it Nick.
Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
Hi miia. When one adopts Christ Jesus (his life and example) as the standard for all doctrinal matters, then one can see that the teaching found in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the Rich Man was simply a parable. The Rich Man was not literally in the pangs of fire after his death as a punishment for his sins. After all, if such a torment was the actual punishment for sins, then Christ Jesus would have had to endure that very punishment to pay the penalty for the sins of the world. This means that Jesus would have to be in the torment of hell-fire for the rest of eternity. If the consequences of sin were to be placed in a hell fire to be burned forever, then for Christ to have paid the penalty of our sins (so we do not have to suffer it), then Christ would have to be in that hell fire forever — always suffering the consequences of our sins. After all, the Bible says that Christ took our punishment. But Christ was alive from the dead some three days later, and is presently in heaven with the Father. He is not in an eternal hell fire undergoing the consequences of our sins! All of the scriptures speaking about the punishment of fire are symbolic. If they are not, then they would violate this fundamental theological fact of the New Testament that Christ paid the punishment for our sins without being burnt in any flames.
Indeed, what did Christ do for us? The Bible says “He died” (Romans 3:34). And what are the wages of sin? — the consequences of sin?
“For the wages of sin is death: but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Romans 6:23
The result of sin is death — not life in hell fire or anywhere else! What Jesus did was to be crucified for us on the cross. He did not go into hell fire to burn forever — or else He would still be there! Some say that the wages of sin are eternal death (nonexistence). But this cannot be true. If it were, then Christ (in order to pay the penalty for our sins) would have had to remain dead for all eternity! Yet He was dead for only three days! He is now with the Father in heaven and getting ready to return to this earth to redeem His saints at the resurrection of the just. Others have said that since all humans have to die the first (physical) death (Hebrews 9:27), it is the seconddeath that Christ died for us. But how can that be? The second death is the Lake of Fire in the Book of Revelation (Revelation 20:14), and it is obvious that Christ did not go into any literal Lake of Fire while He died on the cross. His death was for us!
What Christ did do for you, me and all mankind was to make it possible for all death to be abolished . The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (1 Corinthians 15:26) which He will accomplish in His own good time. Only “life” will then exist!
The fact is, the Bible makes perfectly good sense on the matter of the punishments for sin. It is when well-intentioned, but erroneous, interpreters begin to make symbolic scriptures to be literal, that all of the problems emerge. All becomes confusing and contradictory when this type of procedure is used. The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a pure parable from beginning to end. It makes perfectly good sense and tells a wonderful and significant story that any student of the Bible can relate to. Let us learn to leave the parables as parables! The Bible will become plain if we do. the wages of sin (the punishment for sins) was death and not some kind of “eternal life” (Romans 6:23). Everlasting life is a gift from God (Romans 6:23), and nowhere is it automatically (or naturally) reckoned as a punishment for sins. The wages of sin happens to be death, not life! And this is precisely the type of punishment that was placed on Jesus when he paid the penalty for our sins. This means that every sin ever devised or perpetrated by mankind (from the time of Adam to the period in the future known as the dispensation of the fullness of times) was placed on the person of Christ Jesus. He bore the punishment for everyone of those sins that has been committed on the earth. God the Father imputed them to Christ, and not to mankind. This is the central teaching of the Gospel and the apostle Paul homed in on it with precision. Note Paul’s teaching in 2 Corinthians 5:19. “God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”
“All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitudes in parables; and without a parable spoke he not unto them.”
Matthew 13:34. God bless. Just a word for thought anthony
Anthony. ….Well put brother. Jesus died and paid for the “penalty” which would have resulted in “eternal death”, because of our sins, “we were bought with a price”, He paid the price for our redemption, we are no longer under condemnation, but have been delievered from death to life. But none the less every man shall give account for what he has done in the flesh.
For every man work shall be tried by fire those who have built with gold, silver, and precious stones shall recieve a reward,those who have built with wood hay or stubble, shall suffer a loss, for the fire will judge every mans work, but if he suffers loos by not building with precious stones, he himself shall be saved anyway, yet as with fire (intense judgement) , so we (that believe), have been delivered from “death”, but not from judgements.
Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
Hi Gene,
2 Cor 5.10
For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the BODY according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
Yes it is not a judgement of condemnation for those who have passed over from death to life. What they have done in the body of Christ perhaps.? The PARABLE of the talents explains it. You must let the gift of the Spirit increase and lead you. Gal5.25
.Mt 25.29
For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have will be taken away. Throw the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I hear that. I even believe we could loss out on the first resurrection .Those who are brought forth from the dead at Christ’s second advent, will be able to see the thousand year reign of Christ on earth known as the Millennium (Revelation 20:1-5). But those who persist in sinfullness and unrighteousness will not be granted the privilege of witnessing that glorious reign of Christ on earth (known as the Kingdom of God).
Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inheritthe kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but you are sanctified, but you are justified [declared righteous]in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”
- 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
“For this you know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolator, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”
- Ephesians 5:5
Nick and Anthony, I completely agree with all that, except perhaps the idea that “outer darkness” is meet to be eternal death, because how could a person weep and gnash his teeth if he were completely done away with, maybe before he is done away with he would, but it says “in that place”, so it seems to be a location.
May God help us brothers, and give us the strenth to endure and produce fruit with the spirit he has given us, because it surely will be required of us at the judgement seat of Jesus our lord, but better, our brother. He dosen’t pull punches and will surely render to us what we have done with what he has given us, sometimes the thought of that gives me fear, so again I say, GOD HELP US TO STAND BROTHERS.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
To all…..It is the last hour, we must work in the masters field even if the time is short and he is ready to call in the workers and give us our pay, even though we haven’t born the heat of the day like those hired first have, we could still recieve the same pay as they will. We need to be busy working in the vinyard the best we can with what we have.
BLESS ALL YOU WORKERS TIME IS SHORT.
Peace and love to you all and yours. …..gene
Hi Anthony,
We do not adopt the Lord Jesus.
His Spirit is born into us, and if allowed, will teach and lead us.
Then we must decrease and he must increase. The millennial reign is the REST promised in Heb 4.
Hi Gene,
The place called Tartarus, mentioned in 2 Peter 2.4 , where angels who sinned await judgement, does not appear to be thrown into the Lake of fire as Hades is. This angels are doomed to be thrown in the fire as Matt 25 shows.
Perhaps this is the place where gnashing of teeth occurs?
The same fate is reserved for those who are not dressed in the proper attire for the wedding feast.
The lake of fire is also mentioned in this way
Matt 13.41
The Son of Man will send forth his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
But then the Satan in Peter is called a stumbling block..
”Get behind me satan. You are a stumbling block to me..”
The demons are condemned and perhaps this refers to their demise as well?
Hi Anthony,
We can be more than witnesses.
2Tim 2.11
It s a trustworthy statement
For if we died with him, we will also live with him
If we endure, we will also reign with him;
If we deny him, he will also deny us;
If we are faithless, he remains faithful,
for he cannot deny himself.
Rev.20.4
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgement was given to them
And I saw the souls of those who have been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus
and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image,
and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand;
and they came to life and reigned with Christ for 1000 years.
For more detail read the PARABLE in Lk 19.11f
Hi Anthony,
To die with him is to be baptised in his name into his death.rom 6.2
To be beheaded is to submit to his headship in the Body of Christ.
If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Gal 5.25
Hi all. I believe the weeping and gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness is in this world.
“Eternal” it defiantly seems when you are in darkness and weeping, and gnashing teeth (which humans do in anger).
Thank you for the posts in reply to Nick (Nick, I don’t need to answer 🙂
Very true @Anthony – Thanks.
Nick: The millennial reign is the REST promised in Heb 4.
If anyone has come from the outer darkness and are now at rest, then that is the rest promised surely? Of course we can never be truly at rest 100% in this world the way it is.
My name is Alan Finch. I became a Christian 42 years ago.
WOW, I was taught and believed that multitudes upon multitudes of humans will suffer eternal torment for 100 trillion years, and then another 100 trillion years, and then another 100 trillion years, and it goes on and on with no hope of it ever ending. I am certain that each one of us, deep inside of our very being, know that something just does not add up, but we just can’t quite figure out what is it that we are not understanding correctly from the Scriptures.
The true biblical teaching is neither the traditional Christian view of hell, nor the view of annihilation. Our great God is neither a great torturer nor a great annihilator, but He is the great Saviour of the world.
The mystery of the finished work of Christ on the Cross will one day reveal the perfect plan of God for the entire human race, which does not include eternal torment or eternal annihilation for one single person!
I have written an article upon this topic, but it is much too lengthy to post on this site (26 pages). Below is an introduction. If anyone would like a copy in it’s original Word Document Format, feel free to e-mail me and request a copy and I will e-mail you a copy.
………. What is the “GOOD NEWS” of the Gospel of Christ? ……….(Re-examining the widely held belief of eternal torment in Hellfire)
My purpose for this writing is to Biblically expound upon: (1) is there really going to be eternal torment?” (2) is there really going to be eternal annihilation? (3) to give a Biblical answer to the question “If there is no eternal torment, and if there is no eternal annihilation of our very being, then what are we being saved from and what is our being here during this present time on earth really all about?”
I was a Christian for 38 years before I gained a better Scriptural understanding of some Biblical truths that I had not properly understood in regards to the finished work of Christ on the Cross.
Welcome Alan,
Yes God did not plan anything but good things for the sons of Adam.
The Lake of Fire was only prepared for the devil and his angels.
He sent His Son to rescue men and He wants all to be saved.
What a kind, gracious, patient and merciful God we have.
Zech 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?……29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Matthew 25:31
And <strong>whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory</strong>, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory; 32 <strong>and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another,</strong> as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats, 33 and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left. 34Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me; 36 naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink? 38 and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around? 39 and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee? 40And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] to one of these my brethren — the least — to me ye did [it]. 41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the devil and his messengers; 42 for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink; 43 a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me. 44Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of these, the least, ye did [it] not to me. 46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.’Our God is a consuming fire, God brings men through the fire and refines them, He tries them, he scourges/punishes them to purify them.
Mathew 25 Jesus speaks of the adversary/slanderer and his messengers, these are those that did not take care of the poor, they did not feed them, clothe them or take care of them. They were selfish, self righteous people. These are people who mind the things of men instead of God’s ways. Jesus tells us that charity covers a multitude of sins. In Matthew 25 we see that these who were refined have been called to inherit the kingdom as to reign for a thousand years with Christ. There as some being called and put through a fire now, they are known as the elect, the were predestined before the foundation of the world. We are also told in Matthew 25 that the FIRE has also been prepared to PUNISH/Refine those who did not have charity for the poor.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
The second death represents the end of DEATH, death is the punishment of sin, death is destroyed not because all people who are sinful are destroyed, but because their sinful hearts are destroyed, their hearts have been refined. There is no longer any sin, so therefore their is no longer any death.
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Christ reigns for a thousand years. He is to subdue all things under him, and when he is finished God is all in all. Death is the last enemy to be destroyed, death is the enemy because as Paul tells us all our lifetimes we have been in bondage because of the fear of death. Those in the first resurrection cannot be hurt by the second death, they do not live in fear, in anguish, they feel no shame, as they have been set free and have a perfect body. They cannot be hurt by the second death, they are resurrected in joy and peace, not in punishment and refinement. They had gone to their graves having faith. Those who arise in the second resurrection do not have an immortal body but are those still in bondage, they had gone to their graves as unbelievers. They rise to be punished to be put through the fire, where death is destroyed, as their sins are washed clean. DEATH is destroyed because sin no longer exists, God is all in all.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
