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Hi KW,
Do you think DEATH has more than one meaning?
When Jesus has the keys to death and Hades what does this mean?
Nick, I think it means what Jesus said Himself.
Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”(John 11:23)t8 wrote
Some people believe the following which I also believe.
Death and Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire yes, but not the righteous for the following reason.
Hades was once divided into two. The righteous part (where Abraham was) and the wicked part. The two were divided by a deep chasm of some kind, as described by Jesus in one of his stories.
When Jesus rose from the dead, he preached to the dead and with the keys of Death and Hades he proclaimed victory over death. He then took with him the righteous to be with him. Now when the righteous die, they are with the Lord and they precede those who will be taken up in the hour that no man knows. And where is the Lord now? He is not in Hades, but at the right-hand of the Majesty on High.
Thus Abraham’s bosom is no longer, leaving only the wicked in Hades. In fact we are told that Hades is expanding.
Isaiah 5:14
Therefore Sheol has enlarged its throat and opened its mouth without measure;Matthew 27
51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.…Further, Hades and Death are thrown into the Lake of Fire. We are explicitly told by our brother Peter, that the heavens and earth as well as the wicked are destroyed by the judgement of fire. After that will remain only that which is good. Finally the mission will be complete. What mission? That all will be under Christ and God will be in all, amen. All who love God look forward to that day.
That sounds true and heaps to think about.
HI ALL,
IT SEEMS TO ME THAT MY POST IS NOT QUITE CLEAR SO I MAKE IT MORE CLEAR I HOPE:
THE VERY FIRST THING GOD ESTABLISHED WAS
“THE WORD” AND THE FIRST PHRASE WAS:
LET THERE BE……
THOSE WORDS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR OWN SAME WORDS:
LET THERE BE…!AND GOD DECLARED SO
MY WAYS ARE NOT YOUR WAYS, AND THIS APPLIES IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES!SO GOD’S PHRASE
LET THERE BE…………
IT WOULD BE SO, THROUGHOUT WITHOUT ERADICATING THE LEAST DETAIL FROM IT, AND IN THE SAME TIME
ALL BE TRANSFORMED AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN TILL IT IS GOD’AGAIN
BUT EVEN MORE GLORIFIED!
SIMPLY THROUGH “THE WORD” PROCESS!
THE FACT THAT “THE WORD” PURPOSELY WAS ESTABLISHED FIRST AND FOREMOST!
DECLARED BY “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS
WHATEVER MY FATHER GAVE ME, I WILL LOSE NOTHING! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
OBVIOUS ALL ON THE VERY FIRST PHRASE HE PRONOUNCED
LET THERE BE LUCIFER/ CREATION AND THE EVENTUAL GOD’S KINGDOM THROUGH HIM,TRANSFORMED, THROUGH GOD’S MAJESTY OF BENIGNITYSO LUCIFER AS AN ARCHANGEL, WAS THE FIRST EMBODIMENT OF GOD, IS ERADICATED ONLY AS AN ARCHANGEL, SINCE “THE WORD” WAS WITHIN HIM IN ORDER FOR “THE WORD” TO BE
THE FIRST BORN OF EVERY CREATURE
THE ETERNAL LIFE THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE KINGDOM PROCESS
THE MEDIATOR SPIRIT SLAIN, HIDDEN, WITHIN CREATION REV.13:8 BETWEEN THE ENTIRE CREATION, COMMENCED IN LUCIFER, AND GOD ALMIGHTY!
AS PAUL DECLARED:
A MEDIATOR IS BETWEEN TWO,
BUT SINCE GOD IS ONE, “THE WORD” IS GOD HIMSELF TRANSFORMED AS SUCH BY SIMPLY HIDDEN WITHIN HIS SON
NOW LUCIFER, AS I SAID THE FIRST EMBODIMENT OF GOD,
AT THE VERY END HE WOULD BE THE ENTIRE EMBODIMENTS HIMSELF FOR GOD THE FATHER TO BEALL IN ALL
THE PRODIGAL SON!
FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT IF LUCIFER, AS A SPIRIT, WOULD BE ERADICATED
GOD WOULD NEVER IN THE TRUTH BE
ALL IN ALL
BUT:
ALL IN ALL LESS ONE! OR WHAT THE CASE MAY EVENTUALLY BE!THE FACT THAT JESUS DECLARED
LOVE YOUR ENEMY
TILL THE ENEMY WOULD EVENTUALLY LOVE GOD FOR ETERNITY!
NOW BACK TO MY POST AGAIN FOR THE LOVE OF JESUS, IN ORDER TO REFLECT UPON AND REALIZE WHY THE SON OF GOD GAVE HIS IMMACULATE FLESH AND BLOOD BODY , ONCE!
NOT FOR THE HOLY ONES! OK????????????????????
BUT FOR THE MOST EVIL THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE PROCESS!
LUCIFER’S/SATAN’S REMNANTS THROUGH ADAM’S.
US!
THE FACT THAT GOD PURPOSELY THROUGH THE PROCESS OF “THE WORD”
CREATEDTHE SOUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GOD’S SOLE INVESTMENT
A MEDIATOR SPIRIT BETWEEN THE SPIRIT AND FLESH!
SO BACK TO MY POST:
THE PHRASE
ETERNAL FIRE, AND ALL OTHER SIMILAR PHRASES DO NOT MEAN THAT SOULS WOULD BE ERADICATED, OR NEVER BE RELEASED FROM HELL!
THE FACT THAT HELL DEFINITELY ENDS SINCE IT WOULD BE OF NO USE!
THE WORD ” ETERNAL” IS A REFERENCE TO GOD!
THE FACT THAT GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE, WHICH CONSUMES AND PURIFY SOULS, NOT DESTROYS OR ERADICATES SOULS!
THIS WOULD MAKE GOD INFERIOR TO EVIL!
NOT OMNIPOTENT!
GOD HATES SIN,
BUT NOT HELLTHE FACT THAT HIS PRESENCE IS THERE! THEREFORE LOVE IS ALSO THERE! HE HIMSELF IN “THE WORD” AS FIRE!!!!!
ALSO IT WOULD MAKE A FALLACY GOD,THAT HE HIMSELF WOULD HAVE ESTABLISHED, SOMETHING LIKE HELL,AND THE ERADICATION OF SOULS, A KIND OF SUICIDE, AND ESTABLISHED HIMSELF WEAK, AND UNABLE TO MAKE EVIL CREATURES HOLY,
A COMPLETE CONTRADICTION TO:
LOVE YOUR ENEMY! AND HE HIMSELF ERADICATES HIS ENEMIES?
DO GOOD THAT HATES YOU! AND HE HIMSELF DOES BAD?
THE RAIN COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN FOR BOTH GOOD AND EVIL!
AND HE HIMSELF HAS NO SOLUTION FOR THE EVIL, WHY SENDS THEM THE RAIN, UNLESS THROUGH THAT EVIL, SATANA ITSELF GOOD, GOD REIGHNS?PERMIT ME TO SAY:YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I CAME FOR THE SICK! AND THROUGH HIS DEATH THE SICK REMAIN SICK?
I CAME FOR THE LOST SHEEP! AND THE LOST REMAIN LOST?
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
The problem with your teaching t8 is that you interpret the word ‘destroyed’ to mean ‘annihilation’, which is nowhere in Scripture – but rather a conclusion arrived at purely by human reasoning..
By Holy Spirit guided reasoning.
The Spirit you see, gives love toward others into our hearts.
I could not go to heaven knowing people are suffering for an eternity in some fiery hell.
I would give up heaven to help them.
The second commandment is to love our neighbor as our-self.
The only way I can love God in TRUTH is knowing I can TRUST God with this thing.“And I heard the altar saying, “Yes, Lord God the Almighty, true and just are your judgments!” (Rev 16:7.
If you were in eternal hell, those who know Love would get you out of there one way or another! But don’t worry, God is true and God is just, so nothing to worry about, except saving those who are destined to eternal death, because we do want them to live..
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.Nick,
Hi KW,
Do you think DEATH has more than one meaning?
When Jesus has the keys to death and Hades what does this mean?
If the translators misunderstand what Jesus was saying then Jesus may have called Abaddon by the name Death. That is a hypothesis and one I have only a weak case to support. Abaddon is mentioned several times in the OT, though it is often erroneously translated to destruction. It is a place and so should be capitalized. I unfamiliar with the OT teachings about it because I have only lightly investigated it.
Just going by what I know, and assuming translators were correct, I would say it means Jesus possesses the power to release the souls from the prison of Hades and to unlock the chains of death that bind this world.
What do you thing it means.
Nick,
The word “death” is English and therefore is very likely to have multiple definitions.
One of those is pictured as a skeletal figure and called by the name Death but he is known in Scripture as the Angel of Death. I do not believe Jesus was speaking of the Angel of Death.
Miia,
Nick, I think it means what Jesus said Himself.
Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”(John 11:23)If you see what I wrote in response then you will see I also obtain essentially the same meaning as you do from those words.
The words “I think” trumpet a lack of confidence in your conclusions. You would be wise to pray about them and test them so that you will build faith.
Miia,
I could not go to heaven knowing people are suffering for an eternity in some fiery hell.
If God has people suffer eternally in some eternal lake of fire then he has a righteous purpose for it and he is a loving God. His creations are too limited to judge his works.
There does seem to be at least two that do suffer for a very long time. Unlike the false prophet and the Devil the rest are said to be killed.
Judgement Day comes after they are killed so they could then be resurrected and judged and then thrown into the lack of fire to be tormented in the lake of fire to be tormented like their masters but Revelations does not say that and Jesus does say the body and soul will be destroyed in Gehenna. In Revelations 14 we are told that the ‘smoke of their torment goes up for ages and ages’. The pretense use of torment leads one to conclude that the Lake of Fire is tormenting those thrown in even as it smokes. Both passages come from Revelations that is highly symbolic and therefore dangerous to interpret literally. The only other support that I know of that speaks of torment is the demons, whom begged Jesus not to “torment us before the time”. Demonic prophecy is not something I would base a teaching on but it does serve to strengthen the case of those that believe in age long torment.
The other side is just as strong. It is certainly not clear. I heard someone here claim that destroy does not mean annihilation and all I know is that in the English dictionaries I read it does. The other side claims ages for ages is does not mean forever and could meaning any time limit God chose it to mean. When I hear it use it means a very long time. Some words are symbolic though the demons seem sincerely fearful of torment but they are demons and therefore not trustworthy.
It is confusing.
Hi mila,
We cannot gloss over the fact that scripture poses dire warnings to those who refuse the message of Jesus Christ.
The fear of God is essential to make the right decisions.
The God the world offers is a cuddly teddy bear
Some if not all the confusion can be laid to rest when we consider that not all punishment is of the same measure. Some will be beaten with many stripes (so to speak) and others with fewer. When we look at our prison system, we see people enduring different lengths of punishments based on the seriousness of their crime. It’s not like all get the same sentence whether that is for genocide or non-payment of fines. God’s judgement is no different.
It also makes sense that the worse punishment would be handed to Satan followed by the Beast and False Prophet. We see their punishment specifically mentioned in scripture, while others are also thrown into the same Lake with them, it doesn’t say that they will endure the same length of punishment..
We are constantly taught that the fate of the wicked is death, destruction, and to perish. We are taught that they will be no more and that they will be burned up. But people spout ancient false doctrines that have endured through the centuries by certain powers so that people are kept in fear and then telling then the powers that be say they have the key. But the truth sets us free. Jesus has the keys and clearly the human soul is not eternal. However, humans can obtain eternal life, but not all inherit eternity.
Do not be like those who throw away clear and abundant teaching for certain dangerous interpretations of prophecy that are easily misunderstood. Believe the teachings first and then your mind will be renewed so as to see clearly the prophecies. If you start with a particular view of prophecy first, it will skew your understanding of clear teaching even to the point of ignoring the teachings altogether as some do here.
I watched an interesting video yesterday based on a 19th century revelation that was largely ignored in its day. I thought it lined up with scripture myself. It goes in some detail about the subject of the Lake of Fire and the different measures of punishment handed out. If you don’t have the patience for the whole video, then the Lake of Fire part is near the end if you are interested.
Hi Mila,
The world teaches that men go to heaven.
It is not a bible teaching.
What it does say however is that to be away from the body is to be present with the Lord and we know where he is at the moment. It also says that he will come back to Earth with his saints or holy ones. It also says that some souls (of men) are under the altar of God and that before the throne stood a great number that no man could count.
Yes the Earth is the habitation for men. But in the ages to come, there are plans and things that no eye has yet seen.
I prefer to leave this up to God and only talk about that which he has revealed. He has revealed that men indeed will spend some time if you can call it that, in the place where God and his son is. We will certainly spend time in the Earth too. The new Earth will be a paradise, so will be a great place to inhabit.
Hi t8,
Men CAN go to heaven as the Lord has shown us.
But scripture does not say as men do that it is the destiny of good men.
T9,
I just found a Jewish Teaching about Gehinnom that may apply. In it those that are thrown into the lake of fire are tormented for a time that is in accordance with their sins. It say 12 months maximum but Scripture stages ages and ages and I think that is probably longer. Some will repent of their sins which I do not see in though I know of of at least one passage that seems to hint at something like that. After they have suffered they are either destroyed or live in remorse depending on whether they repent or not. This teaching accounts for both the torment and the destruction.
Some views see Gehinnom as one of severe punishment, a bit like the Christian Hell of fire and brimstone. Other sources merely see it as a time when we can see the actions of our lives objectively, see the harm that we have done and the opportunities we missed, and experience remorse for our actions. The period of time in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months, and then ascends to take his place on Olam Ha-Ba.
Only the utterly wicked do not ascend at the end of this period; their souls are punished for the entire 12 months. Sources differ on what happens at the end of those 12 months: some say that the wicked soul is utterly destroyed and ceases to exist while others say that the soul continues to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse.
t8,
There were others resurrected when he was. The people in Jerusalem saw them and then they are no longer mentioned in Scripture.
Nick,
It is clearly better than guesswork which abounds on this subject.
Judaism and Christianity are essential the same religion with their major difference being the Jews looks forward to the birth of the Christ while Christians view it as history and look forward to his return from heaven.
I do not see it as gospel but it does address an apparent conflict in the new testament and you cannot accuse the Jews of being biased as least not about the new testament.
Hi t8,
Men CAN go to heaven as the Lord has shown us.
But scripture does not say as men do that it is the destiny of good men.
The habitation of men is Earth. It is our home.
Men in the ages to come will likely multiply, thus if it is to exist eternally, you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to imagine that the Earth will run out of room at some point. That said, I fall back on the fact that no eye has seen that which God has waiting for those that love him. So I personally do not like to say that men will only live there. It could be for all we know that Earth is where we start. First is the physical and then the spiritual. It is God’s prerogative and we cannot decide these things for God. We can only go by what he has revealed and we know that he has revealed men in different states in differing locations at different times.
Hi Kerwin.
If God has people suffer eternally in some eternal lake of fire then he has a righteous purpose for it and he is a loving God. His creations are too limited to judge his works.
Even though we are limited, God still gave us a brain and a heart – to use.
God respects our searching and our love for our neighbor. He will show us the truth because He knows our hearts.In Revelations 14 we are told that the ‘smoke of their torment goes up for ages and ages’. The pretense use of torment leads one to conclude that the Lake of Fire is tormenting those thrown in even as it smokes. Both passages come from Revelations that is highly symbolic and therefore dangerous to interpret literally. The only other support that I know of that speaks of torment is the demons, whom begged Jesus not to “torment us before the time”. Demonic prophecy is not something I would base a teaching on but it does serve to strengthen the case of those that believe in age long torment.
The “smoke of their torment” going up forever and ever is like smoke that goes up into the air seemingly to the observer “forever and ever” I believe.
The smoke of the incense which is the prayers of the saints is also said to rise up before God in Rev 8:3.
The “torment” and the “smoke of their torment” is when the sinners are alive on earth if read in its proper context, just as the saints prayers and the incense of their prayers are when the saints are alive on earth.
Rev 14:6-8 is speaking of the “eternal gospel to preach to those who live on earth”
Rev 14:9 is talking about God’s wrath of those on earth who worship the beast. It says “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest DAY AND NIGHT…Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus”, again, alive on earth.
It then goes on to say “And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.” again further proof the context of the passage is on earth BEFORE death.The other side is just as strong. It is certainly not clear. I heard someone here claim that destroy does not mean annihilation and all I know is that in the English dictionaries I read it does. The other side claims ages for ages is does not mean forever and could meaning any time limit God chose it to mean. When I hear it use it means a very long time. Some words are symbolic though the demons seem sincerely fearful of torment but they are demons and therefore not trustworthy.
It is confusing.
It not confusing at all, Kerwin. Believe that God is Just and True and then all of the words make sense.
The words “I think” trumpet a lack of confidence in your conclusions. You would be wise to pray about them and test them so that you will build faith.
Thanks.
What do you mean by “test them”?
T9,
I just found a Jewish Teaching about Gehinnom that may apply. In it those that are thrown into the lake of fire are tormented for a time that is in accordance with their sins. It say 12 months maximum but Scripture stages ages and ages and I think that is probably longer. Some will repent of their sins which I do not see in though I know of of at least one passage that seems to hint at something like that. After they have suffered they are either destroyed or live in remorse depending on whether they repent or not. This teaching accounts for both the torment and the destruction.
I will give it a read too. I didn’t know I had an older brother or is T9 the next model up from me?
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