In the Beginning

[Ed J]

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 11 2013,06:47)

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 11 2013,08:40) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 10 2013,16:15) Mike, I cannot give you the scriptures one by one because it is the scriptures as a whole. What you ask is impossible, unless you want to go through the entire bible with me?? What we each learn as truth only God can show us. Why do you think that man goes astray? They may feel safe in their beliefs, but is this any guarantee that they have truth in what they teach? We have no need of a teacher, because we have one teacher, and that teacher is with us, but the only way that that teacher can be with us, is if we are true to ourselves, and if we seek God with a humble heart. In this day and age, where is truth? Has it fled? Are people so consumed with words and doctrines that they have forsaken the Lord? Since when has our own mind become God? Do we think that we are that clever? I would suggest to you, Mike, that you look into the missing Gospel – the Shepherd of Hermas, and ask yourself why it was so accepted by the earliest Church and listed as canon in the earliest times by the church, who did not QUESTION Hermas' Christiology. BTW, Kerwin did not learn off of me, Mike. Kerwin believed what He believes long before me, I think. So sorry, you are wrong there… Peace Mike. Hi 2Besee, The Shepherd of Hermas is not canon, why do you push it as if it was canon? God bless Ed J Hi Ed, YOU say that the 'Shepherd of Hermas' was not considered as canon – even though facts tell us that it was considered to be canon in the earliest days. The reason why you do not want 'Hermas' to have been CALLED canon by the earliest church is because 'Hermas' disagrees with your view.

Hi 2Besee, I said no such thing, here is what I actually said:

The Shepherd of Hermas IS NOT CANON,
why do you push it as if it was canon?
Now will you please answer my actual question?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,21:05)

It makes perfect sense that both Jesus Christ AND the Holy Spirit are two different “sons of God”? Are you sure?

Mike,
Are you having difficulty understanding that God could be the Father to more than one Son?

Do you think it is impossible for God to be your Father?
Do you think that it is impossible for God to be Gene's Father?
Do you think that it is impossible for God to be my Father?
Do you think that it is impossible for God to be Kerwin's Father?
Do you think that it is impossible for God to be Adam's Father?
…………?

I think you get my drift.

What does begotten mean to you Mike? (when pertaining to God)

Does it not mean, 'Adopted', 'Spiritually Reborn'?
God says to Jesus, 'You are the Son of Man – now you are My Son,  my spiritually firstborn from the dead, today, I have become your Father and you are my Son.'

(Read Acts chapter 13 chapter for an explanation)

26“My brothers, descendants of Abraham’s family, and those among you who fear God, it is to us that the message of this salvation has been sent. 27For the people who live in Jerusalem and their leaders, not knowing who Jesus was, condemned him and so fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 28Although they found no reason to sentence him to death, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29When they had finished doing everything that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and placed him in a tomb. 30But God raised him from the dead, 31and for many days he appeared to those who had come with him to Jerusalem from Galilee. These are now his witnesses to the people. 32We’re telling you the good news: What God promised our ancestors 33he has fulfilled for us, their descendants, by raising Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm, ‘You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.’ 34God raised him from the dead, never to experience decay, as he said, ‘I’ll give you the holy promises made to David.’ 35In another Psalm he says, ‘You will not let your Holy One experience decay.’ 36Now David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, died and was buried with his ancestors, and so he experienced decay. 37However, the man whom God raised did not experience decay.

38“Therefore, brothers, you must understand that through him the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39and that everyone who believes in him is justified and freed from everything that kept you from being justified by the Law of Moses. 40So be careful that what the prophets said doesn’t happen to you:

41‘Look, you mockers!

Be amazed and die!

Since I am performing an action in your days,

one that you would not believe

even if someone told you!’”

[Ed J]

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 11 2013,07:05)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,21:05) It makes perfect sense that both Jesus Christ AND the Holy Spirit are two different “sons of God”? Are you sure? Mike, Are you having difficulty understanding that God could be the Father to more than one Son? Do you think it is impossible for God to be your Father? Do you think that it is impossible for God to be Gene's Father? Do you think that it is impossible for God to be my Father? Do you think that it is impossible for God to be Kerwin's Father? Do you think that it is impossible for God to be Adam's Father? …………? I think you get my drift. What does begotten mean to you Mike? (when pertaining to God) Does it not mean, 'Adopted', 'Spiritually Reborn'? God says to Jesus, 'You are the Son of Man – now you are My Son,  my spiritually firstborn from the dead, today, I have become your Father and you are my Son.' (Read Acts chapter 13 chapter for an explanation) 26“My brothers, descendants of Abraham’s family, and those among you who fear God, it is to us that the message of this salvation has been sent. 27For the people who live in Jerusalem and their leaders, not knowing who Jesus was, condemned him and so fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 28Although they found no reason to sentence him to death, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29When they had finished doing everything that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and placed him in a tomb. 30But God raised him from the dead, 31and for many days he appeared to those who had come with him to Jerusalem from Galilee. These are now his witnesses to the people. 32We’re telling you the good news: What God promised our ancestors 33he has fulfilled for us, their descendants, by raising Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm, ‘You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.’ 34God raised him from the dead, never to experience decay, as he said, ‘I’ll give you the holy promises made to David.’ 35In another Psalm he says, ‘You will not let your Holy One experience decay.’ 36Now David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, died and was buried with his ancestors, and so he experienced decay. 37However, the man whom God raised did not experience decay. 38“Therefore, brothers, you must understand that through him the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39and that everyone who believes in him is justified and freed from everything that kept you from being justified by the Law of Moses. 40So be careful that what the prophets said doesn’t happen to you: 41‘Look, you mockers! Be amazed and die! Since I am performing an action in your days, one that you would not believe even if someone told you!’”

Hi 2Besee,

If the “Holy Spirit” is a son of God and Jesus is also a son of God.
Would not Jesus then be “the Grandson of God” instead?
This is the second exposed dilemma in your theory.

The first was: If the son of God is the HolySpirit then he birthed
(or fathered) himself. Remember me pointing out this dilemma to you?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[2besee]

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 11 2013,09:15)

Hi 2Besee, If the “Holy Spirit” is a son of God and Jesus is also a son of God. Would not Jesus then be “the Grandson of God” instead? This is the second exposed dilemma in your theory. The first was: If the son of God is the HolySpirit then he birthed (or fathered) himself. Remember me pointing out this dilemma to you? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed,
What are you talking about?
I have no idea what you are talking about.

I hope that you are not like the others who believe somehow that Jesus' being created was akin to human reproduction??

Or that you imagine that somehow God has body parts??

No.
That is not what you are saying is it Ed? ED?
Get a grip please!

This thread is becoming very 'weird'!

God is spirit.

[Ed J]

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 11 2013,07:15)

If the “Holy Spirit” is a son of God and Jesus is also a son of God.  Would not Jesus then be “the Grandson of God” instead?

Hi 2Besee,

Will you please address this point.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[2besee]

Hi Ed,
How can I address your point, if I do not understand what you are saying?

Quote you : “If the “Holy Spirit” is a son of God and Jesus is also a son of God.
Would not Jesus then be “the Grandson of God” instead?” : Unquote you.

Quote you again…”If… the Holy Spirit….. is a son of God…. and Jesus is also a son of God” .. (Okay, got you so far)…. (Quote you)…”Would not Jesus then be the Grandson of God, instead….” ??(Unquote you)…..No, I do not get you

I believe, Ed, that Jesus was a man like all of us, the only difference was that Jesus was sinless. He became the second Adam and the savior of the world.
I believe that God knows everything before it happens, so, God, knowing that Jesus would be perfect and sinless, caused Jesus to be without the sin Gene, perhaps, by causing Jesus to be born of a virgin.

But I do not believe that Jesus was half God and half Man, at all.
I believe that Jesus was a Man who became Son of God AFTER being born. Though God would have begotten him way before then due to God knows everything BEFORE it happens.

[2besee]

Daniel 7.

[9] As I looked,
thrones were placed
and one that was ancient of days took his seat;
his raiment was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames,
its wheels were burning fire.
[10] A stream of fire issued
and came forth from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.

[13] I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
[14] And to him was given dominion
and glory and kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.

[Ed J]

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 11 2013,08:04)

Hi Ed, How can I address your point, if I do not understand what you are saying? Quote you : “If the “Holy Spirit” is a son of God and Jesus is also a son of God. Would not Jesus then be “the Grandson of God” instead?” : Unquote you. Quote you again…”If… the Holy Spirit….. is a son of God…. and Jesus is also a son of God” .. (Okay, got you so far)…. (Quote you)…”Would not Jesus then be the Grandson of God, instead….” ??(Unquote you)…..No, I do not get you I believe, Ed, that Jesus was a man like all of us, the only difference was that Jesus was sinless. He became the second Adam and the savior of the world. I believe that God knows everything before it happens, so, God, knowing that Jesus would be perfect and sinless, caused Jesus to be without the sin Gene, perhaps, by causing Jesus to be born of a virgin. But I do not believe that Jesus was half God and half Man, at all. I believe that Jesus was a Man who became Son of God AFTER being born. Though God would have begotten him way before then due to God knows everything BEFORE it happens.

Hi 2Besee,

I ask because the “HolySpirit” is called both “God” and “Jesus' father” in Luke 1:35.
Now that you understand my question, will you address the dilemma that I present…

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 11 2013,07:15)

If the “Holy Spirit” is a son of God and Jesus is also a son of God.  Would not Jesus then be “the Grandson of God” instead?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[2besee]

Okay Ed,
I think that I get you now.

My answer is:

God created and caused all to be through the Holy Spirit.

'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth……..The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters….'

So, the Holy Spirit is the active part in creation, and in all. The “eternal Spirit” – and 'the Lord is the Spirit.'

It does not mean that 'that what is created' is God or is 'half God' because they were created through the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit also called the Son of God is the active part in creation.

It is the power of God. It is what is supposed to be in us, though, man today would have a form of godly devotion, proving false to it's power.

Why, Ed, what do you think?

[Ed J]

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 11 2013,08:31)

Okay Ed, I think that I get you now. My answer is: God created and caused all to be through the Holy Spirit. 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth……..The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters….' So, the Holy Spirit is the active part in creation, and in all. The “eternal Spirit” – and 'the Lord is the Spirit.' It does not mean that 'that what is created' is God or is 'half God' because they were created through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit also called the Son of God is the active part in creation. It is the power of God. It is what is supposed to be in us, though, man today would have a form of godly devotion, proving false to it's power. Why, Ed, what do you think?

Hi 2Besee,

We know that God created Earth by his spirit,
BUT THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE, this is…

Then you do not consider God's HolySpirit to be Jesus' father?
Would this not be in stark contradiction to Luke 1:35 then?       …if you say “No”, explain why.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[2besee]

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 11 2013,11:16)

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 11 2013,08:31) Okay Ed, I think that I get you now. My answer is: God created and caused all to be through the Holy Spirit. 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth……..The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters….' So, the Holy Spirit is the active part in creation, and in all. The “eternal Spirit” – and 'the Lord is the Spirit.' It does not mean that 'that what is created' is God or is 'half God' because they were created through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit also called the Son of God is the active part in creation. It is the power of God. It is what is supposed to be in us, though, man today would have a form of godly devotion, proving false to it's power. Why, Ed, what do you think? Hi 2Besee, We know that God created Earth by his spirit, BUT THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE, this is… Then you do not consider God's HolySpirit to be Jesus' father? Would this not be in stark contradiction to Luke 1:35 then?       …if you say “No”, explain why. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed,

Can God not cause a virgin to conceive through the power of the Holy Spirit – and not, also, be IN that person through the Holy Spirit – such as what happened to Jesus, when the Holy Spirit descended on Him like a Dove?

“For we are the temple of the living God, just as God said: “I will live and walk among them. I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

“19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this sanctuary, and in three days I will rebuild it.” 20The Jewish leaders said, “This sanctuary has been under construction for 46 years, and you’re going to rebuild it in three days?” 21But the sanctuary he was speaking about was his own body. 22After he had been raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this. So they believed the Scripture and the statement that Jesus had made.”

Anyway, enough posting from me, for now

[Ed J]

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 11 2013,09:48)

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 11 2013,11:16) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 11 2013,08:31) Okay Ed, I think that I get you now. My answer is: God created and caused all to be through the Holy Spirit. 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth……..The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters….' So, the Holy Spirit is the active part in creation, and in all. The “eternal Spirit” – and 'the Lord is the Spirit.' It does not mean that 'that what is created' is God or is 'half God' because they were created through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit also called the Son of God is the active part in creation. It is the power of God. It is what is supposed to be in us, though, man today would have a form of godly devotion, proving false to it's power. Why, Ed, what do you think? Hi 2Besee, We know that God created Earth by his spirit, BUT THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE, this is… Then you do not consider God's HolySpirit to be Jesus' father? Would this not be in stark contradiction to Luke 1:35 then?       …if you say “No”, explain why. God bless Ed J   Hi Ed, (1)Can God not cause a virgin to conceive through the power of the Holy Spirit – and not, also, be IN that person through the Holy Spirit – (2)such as what happened to Jesus, when the Holy Spirit descended on Him like a Dove? (3)”For we are the temple of the living God, just as God said: “I will live and walk among them. I will be their God, and they will be my people.” “19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this sanctuary, and in three days I will rebuild it.” 20The Jewish leaders said, “This sanctuary has been under construction for 46 years, and you’re going to rebuild it in three days?” 21But the sanctuary he was speaking about was his own body. 22After he had been raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this. So they believed the Scripture and the statement that Jesus had made.” Anyway, enough posting from me, for now

Hi 2Besee,

1) Of course, God's spirit in infinite; but that doesn't address the issue I illustrated.
2) Jesus baptism is not the issue either. So please address my point this time; OK?

3) FIRST, 'THE SON OF PERDITION' MUST BE REMOVED from the temple of God!
“Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;
 so that he as (i am) God sitteth in the temple of God , showing himself that he is God.” (2 Thess 2:4)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Lightenup]

Quote (abe @ Mar. 10 2013,14:56)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 10 2013,11:30) Quote Mike Tells us if the Word “Begotten” means to bring into Existence” how could Jesus be Begotten on “this Day” when he already existed? can you begin to exist, “be begotten”, if you already exist? Gene, the word 'begotten' is often meant as being born. Anything that is born was alive beforehand. Hi LU, (quote) Anything that is born was alive beforehand. And the word was God. Peace sister..

Yes, abe, the Word was God.

Peace

[2besee]

Hi Mike and all,

I would like to move on now. What I would like to look at is: What is Jesus Now? i.e. AFTER the resurrection.

So I will start up a new thread, perhaps?

[2besee]

I may have something wrong in my posts today and yesterday,

I did a study on the word “begotten” not long ago, for “Wakeup”..

---

There is no difference in the words “born of God” and “begotten of God”.
It is the same word used in each of the biblical occurrences, and it is the Greek word “Gennáō”

There is another word “Monogenes” often translated also as begotten, which has only nine occurrences in the New testament, with only four occurrences pertaining to Jesus. It is not the same word. It can also mean 'Unique' and some translations, such as the “International Standard Version” have chosen to translate it as 'unique'.

“The Word became flesh and lived among us. We gazed on his glory, the kind of glory that belongs to the Father’s unique Son, who is full of grace and truth.” John 1:14

“No one has ever seen God. The unique God, who is close to the Father’s side, has revealed him.” John 1:18

“For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life. ” John 3:16

“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s unique Son.” John 3:18

“By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered Isaac—he who had received the promises was about to offer his unique son in sacrifice, about whom it had been said, “It is through Isaac that descendants will be named for you.” Hebrews 11:17  

“This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent his unique Son into the world so that we might live through him.”1John 4:9

And that is the ONLY occurrences of that word “monogenes” pertaining to the topic, compared to the exclusive word “Gennáō” which I will touch upon soon.

The above can be verified with the following links:

http://biblos.com/john/3-16.htm
http://biblesuite.com/greek/3439.htm
http://biblesuite.com/greek/strongs_3439.htm

——————–

As for the correct word for beget..

1080 gennáō – properly, beget (procreate a descendant), produce offspring; (passive) be born, “begotten.”

This is found (only) in the following verses:

(Those marked with an asterisk are pertaining to natural birth – I will only quote those that are pertaining to something different)

*Matt 1:1-16

Matt 1:20
'But as he considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit; she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.'
*Matt 2:1
*Matt 2:4
*Matt 19:12
*Matt 26:24
*Mark 14:21
*Luke 1:13

Luke 1:35
'And the angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.'
*Luke 1:57
*Luke 23:29

John 1:12-13
'But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.'

John 3:3-8
'Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicode'mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born anew.' The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit.”

*John 8:41
*John 9:2-34
*John 16:21
*John 18:37

——————

*Acts 7:8-29

Acts 13:33
'And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, `Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee.'

*Acts22:3
*Acts 22:28
*Romans 9:11
*Gal 4:23-29
*2Tim 2:23
1Cor 4:15  
Philemon 1:10

—————–

Hebrews 1:5
'For to what angel did God ever say,”Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”?

Hebrews 5:5
'So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, “Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee”

Hebrews 11:12
'Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.'

*Hebrews 11:23
*2Peter 2:12

1John 2:29
'If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that every one who does right is born of him.'

1John 3:9
'No one born of God commits sin; for God's nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God.'

1John 4:7
'Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God.'

1John 5:1-18
'Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and every one who loves the parent loves the child.'

The above can be verified with these links:

http://biblesuite.com/greek/strongs_1080.htm
]http://biblesuite.com/greek/1080.htm[/color]

Peace

[GeneBalthrop]

2besee……….Good Post brother. Jesus was indeed born of God through Mary as a Pure human being , and received the Nature of God in him and did not as a result of that nature sin. Jesus was a Uniquely “begotten” son of God a second Adam. He never preexisted his berth on this earth, except in the plan and will of God and was Prophesied to come into existence in scriptures way before he ever existed. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………….gene

[Spock]

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 11 2013,16:06)

Hi Mike and all, I would like to move on now. What I would like to look at is:  What is Jesus Now?  i.e. AFTER the resurrection. So I will start up a new thread, perhaps?

Good Idea, now that Jesus is a God Jr, with all power and authority in heaven and on earth given to him, did the original God retire?

Before Jesus returned to heaven (having merely pre-existed as idea/plan before Mary birthed him) the Jews conceived of only One God in heaven.

Now there is God Jr and the Lord God of Israel. How many does that equal?

Colter

[2besee]

Good points Colter.

[2besee]

Thanks Gene.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 10 2013,04:40)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,15:27) Kerwin, do you believe the Holy Spirit is ONE Son of God, and Jesus is a completely DIFFERENT Son of God? Mike, As is common to man, you see what you want to see. 2beesee and I choose see something different than you.

Okay.  Now could you answer my question?

[Author]

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