In the Beginning

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 05 2013,05:48)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2013,07:32) If Kerwin tells the front dest clerk that he wants the room HE HAD last year, is he talking about: A.  The room HE HAD last year? B.  The room the hotel had been holding for him since last year? Which one do the words “HE HAD” imply? The clerk is going to look at reservations and not at possession. B is the best choice because A is unrealistic.

Okay Kerwin.  

Let's change the scenario a smidge, to eliminate any “wiggle room”:

Kerwin was traveling, and happened to become tired about the time he was driving by a hotel he had stayed in the year before.

He went inside and told the clerk, “I would like the room I HAD with you last year”.

What is the clerk's MOST LIKELY reaction:

A.  Start looking in the reservation book, thinking that by the words “I HAD”, Kerwin was talking about a room the hotel had been holding in reserve for him?

B.  Ask him which room HE HAD last year, so he could see if that room was available?

Please pick “A” or “B” as the MOST LIKELY answer.

[mikeboll64]

So then Cyrus, who is also called the “arm of Jehovah”, is also a part of God, and has also existed from eternity?

Kathi, can you tell me what the phrases, “the mighty hand of God” and “the outstretched arm of God” refer to in scripture?

My understanding is the power, might, or tool by which God accomplised His purpose.  Jesus and Cyrus were both tools God used to accomplish HIS will (not THEIR will).

Deuteronomy 34
11 [Moses] did all the signs and wonders the Lord had sent him to do in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh, all his servants, and the whole land, 12 with respect to all the strong hand and with respect to all the awesome greatness which Moses did before the eyes of all Israel.

This is just one of many examples where “strong hand” or “mighty arm” refer to the POWER of someone.

On the other hand, the comparison of the two scriptures I listed for Abe show that “finger of God” is another way of saying “Holy Spirit of God”.

Kathi, WHY?    Here I am, by myself, in a thread where I'm arguing against many people who just don't want to see the truth about Jesus' pre-existence, and do you help ME?

NO.  Instead, you look for opportunities to bring your “TWO Almighty Gods” understanding into a thread which isn't even about that topic.  

Why not support me on the things we agree on?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 05 2013,06:16)

Your Livimg Soul consits of a body with Spirit “IN” it. Just that simple There is no such thing as “three componets to us

Well, Jesus and Paul both disagree with you, Gene.  And I will ALWAYS accept their words over yours.

But even in your scenario, “Mike” consists of a body AND a spirit, right?

So “the spirit of Mike” is not “Mike”, because that “spirit” is lacking the body part, of which “Mike” also consists.

Gene, this is so simple a child could understand it.  Don't you know what the word “OF” means in the English language?    The hair of Mike is not “Mike”, but a possession/part OF him.  Likewise, the spirit OF Mike is not “Mike”, but a possession/part OF him.  And the Spirit OF God is not “God”, but a possession/part OF Him.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 05 2013,06:16)

Mike don't threaten me with this Hot seat crap either brother.

Last chance to answer the question in this thread, Gene.

Do you believe that God's Holy Spirit is the SON OF God?  YES or NO?

(If I take this question to the Hot Seat, you will receive tiles for not answering it – as per the rules set by the owner of this site. And don't think I'm going to feel guilty about it either, Gene. Because it is a very simple question, and there is no reason that you shouldn't just do the right thing and answer it honestly.)

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2013,14:28)

Hi Abe, No man can see the face of God and live.  Moses saw the “presence” or “glory” of God……… but not His face. Exodus 33 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. That Acts verse you are quoting doesn't even have to do with literally seeing and hearing the Holy Spirit.  I has to do with seeing and being told about THE EFFECTS OF the Holy Spirit.  For example, many people saw the tongues of fire over the disciples' heads.  And many people heard them speaking in languages they didn't previously know.   Paul is saying that the miracles you are seeing, and the gospel you are hearing, is the result of the Holy Spirit being poured out on the believers, IMO. But there is the case of the Holy Spirit resting on Jesus.  At that time, it was seen in “bodily form”, like a dove.  But again, the Holy Spirit is not the FACE of God. As for Phil 2:9, it speaks of Jesus – not the Holy Spirit. And the scripture about the “finger of God”: Luke 11:20 But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you. We can know “finger of God” is a euphemism for the “Holy Spirit of God”, because the same event is also quoted in Matthew 12:28………. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. So can God have existed, and then at some later time CREATED one of His fingers?  Or does it make more sense that the finger/spirit of God has always been a part of God?

Mike,
How can the “finger of God” be the Holy Spirit?
Is your finger your spirit?
No.

A finger is a finger, the inner spirit is the inner spirit. The inner spirit knows the deep things of God, just as your spirit knows the deep things of you that nobody else knows. Nobody knows the Father except for the Son and whomever He chooses to reveal to.

[abe]

Hi Mike,

(quote)
The Holy Spirit is a part of God, not a creation of God.

Is the SON of God part of God?

Is the WORD of God part of God?

Is the WISDOM of God part of God?

Is the POWER of God part of God?

Is the GLORY of God part of God?

Peace brother…….

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2013,21:10)

So then Cyrus, who is also called the “arm of Jehovah”, is also a part of God, and has also existed from eternity? Kathi, can you tell me what the phrases, “the mighty hand of God” and “the outstretched arm of God” refer to in scripture? My understanding is the power, might, or tool by which God accomplised His purpose.  Jesus and Cyrus were both tools God used to accomplish HIS will (not THEIR will). Deuteronomy 34 11 [Moses] did all the signs and wonders the Lord had sent him to do in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh, all his servants, and the whole land, 12 with respect to all the strong hand and with respect to all the awesome greatness which Moses did before the eyes of all Israel. This is just one of many examples where “strong hand” or “mighty arm” refer to the POWER of someone. On the other hand, the comparison of the two scriptures I listed for Abe show that “finger of God” is another way of saying “Holy Spirit of God”. Kathi, WHY?    Here I am, by myself, in a thread where I'm arguing against many people who just don't want to see the truth about Jesus' pre-existence, and do you help ME? NO.  Instead, you look for opportunities to bring your “TWO Almighty Gods” understanding into a thread which isn't even about that topic.   Why not support me on the things we agree on?

I don't support you because you walk a crooked path. You speak out of two sides of your mouth. On one thread you will completely act like what you are saying on one thread is common sense but an insane thought on a different thread.

You bring up Cyrus when I talk about Jesus being the Arm of the Lord, then you bring up Moses when I talk about Jesus being called God, like you actually think people are confused between the difference between Cyrus and Moses compared to Christ. You don't equate Moses and Cyrus to Christ yet you act like He is the Arm exactly like Cyrus, or theos exactly like Moses. You just seem to want to argue. That is why I don't support you. You just flip your argument to argue each side of things. That wastes peoples time. I am not here just to practice debating each side of an argument.

Your words on one thread do not line up with your words on another thread, just like I have now shown you on this thread.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2013,13:20)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 05 2013,06:16) Your Livimg Soul consits of a body with Spirit “IN” it. Just that simple There is no such thing as “three componets to us Well, Jesus and Paul both disagree with you, Gene.  And I will ALWAYS accept their words over yours. But even in your scenario, “Mike” consists of a body AND a spirit, right? So “the spirit of Mike” is not “Mike”, because that “spirit” is lacking the body part, of which “Mike” also consists. Gene, this is so simple a child could understand it.  Don't you know what the word “OF” means in the English language?    The hair of Mike is not “Mike”, but a possession/part OF him.  Likewise, the spirit OF Mike is not “Mike”, but a possession/part OF him.  And the Spirit OF God is not “God”, but a possession/part OF Him. Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 05 2013,06:16) Mike don't threaten me with this Hot seat crap either brother. Last chance to answer the question in this thread, Gene. Do you believe that God's Holy Spirit is the SON OF God?  YES or NO? (If I take this question to the Hot Seat, you will receive tiles for not answering it – as per the rules set by the owner of this site.  And don't think I'm going to feel guilty about it either, Gene.  Because it is a very simple question, and there is no reason that you shouldn't just do the right thing and answer it honestly.)

Mike……..your answer is yes and no.  Yes it is when “IT” is “IN” you and “NO” if “IT” is not in you , “YES” , It is the Spirit of God that makes his children. So from that perspective the answer is YES.

THAT IS THE ABSOLUTE ANSWER.

If you ask for an answer where it is either way, pending on your view or condition it is used, this is the “only” correct answer that can be given, trying to force us to say what you want by a setup question is one of your modes of operations Mike and only shows your deceptive nature. IMO

Mike does the DNA in you Make you a son of your Father YES OR NO?

DOES THE SPIRIT OF GOD IN A PERSON MAKE HIM A SON OF GOD! YES OR NO , PLEASE?

Bottom line is Mike you have not one clue what a SPIRIT IS OR WHAT IT PRODUCES IN A PERSON. IMO

Peace and love to you and your…………………. Gene

[abe]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 06 2013,07:13)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2013,13:20) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 05 2013,06:16) Your Livimg Soul consits of a body with Spirit “IN” it. Just that simple There is no such thing as “three componets to us Well, Jesus and Paul both disagree with you, Gene.  And I will ALWAYS accept their words over yours. But even in your scenario, “Mike” consists of a body AND a spirit, right? So “the spirit of Mike” is not “Mike”, because that “spirit” is lacking the body part, of which “Mike” also consists. Gene, this is so simple a child could understand it.  Don't you know what the word “OF” means in the English language?    The hair of Mike is not “Mike”, but a possession/part OF him.  Likewise, the spirit OF Mike is not “Mike”, but a possession/part OF him.  And the Spirit OF God is not “God”, but a possession/part OF Him. Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 05 2013,06:16) Mike don't threaten me with this Hot seat crap either brother. Last chance to answer the question in this thread, Gene. Do you believe that God's Holy Spirit is the SON OF God?  YES or NO? (If I take this question to the Hot Seat, you will receive tiles for not answering it – as per the rules set by the owner of this site.  And don't think I'm going to feel guilty about it either, Gene.  Because it is a very simple question, and there is no reason that you shouldn't just do the right thing and answer it honestly.) Mike……..your answer is yes and no.  Yes it is when “IT” is “IN” you and “NO” if “IT” is not in you , “YES” , It is the Spirit of God that makes his children. So from that perspective the answer is YES. THAT IS THE ABSOLUTE ANSWER. If you ask for an answer where it is either way, pending on  your view or condition it is used,  this is the “only” correct  answer that can be given, trying to force us to say what you want by a setup question is one of your modes of operations Mike and only shows your deceptive nature. IMO Mike does the DNA in you Make you a son of your Father YES OR NO? DOES THE SPIRIT OF GOD IN A PERSON MAKE HIM A SON OF GOD! YES OR NO , PLEASE? Bottom line is Mike you have not one clue what a SPIRIT IS OR WHAT IT PRODUCES IN A PERSON. IMO Peace and love to you and your…………………. Gene

Hi Gene,

It is the Spirit of God that makes his children.

Rom.9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Amen brother.

[GeneBalthrop]

Lighten up……….I agree with you regarding Mikes behavior at times.

Peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike …….here is a question for you, Do you believe GOD AND HIS WORD ARE ONE AND THE SAME.

YES OR NO, PLEASE

Do you believe GOD'S SPIRIT is PART OF GOD ? YES OR NO, PLEASE

Peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Abe…………AMEN, Brother, it is the spirit of God that makes us his children . For if a person has not the spirit of God they simply are non of his, just as it says.

Peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (abe @ Mar. 05 2013,21:01)

Hi Mike, (quote) The Holy Spirit is a part of God, not a creation of God. Is the   SON  of  God   part of God? Is the   WORD   of  God    part of God? Is the    WISDOM   of  God   part of God? Is the   POWER  of  God   part of God? Is the   GLORY  of God   part of God? Peace brother…….

No to all, Abe.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 05 2013,21:13)

I don't support you because you walk a crooked path. You speak out of two sides of your mouth. On one thread you will completely act like what you are saying on one thread is common sense but an insane thought on a different thread.

Oh I see.  Not only is that claim ludicrous, and without any evidence, but your actions actually show YOU to be the one speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

Kathi, do you believe God CREATED His Holy Spirit?  YES or NO?

Because THAT is what Abe and I are discussing.  So, would you and your PRIDE like to join sides with Abe on this one – just to spite me?  It sure seems that way by your comments.

And since you are supporting Abe instead of me on this matter – a matter in which you don't even AGREE with Abe – it shows that YOU are the one who walks a crooked path.

Also, I asked you what “mighty hand” and “strong arm” even mean in reference to Jehovah (or anyone else for that matter).  Perhaps you'd like to answer that question?

As for Cyrus and Moses, why CAN'T I use them as examples of the same things you claim make Jesus BE the God he is the Son OF?

Were they not ALL servants OF our ONE and ONLY God and Creator?  YES.

Was Moses greater than Cyrus?  YES.  And is Michael the archangel even greater than Moses?  YES.  And is God's firstborn, Jesus Christ, even greater than Michael?  YES.

But how does the fact that one servant of God is greater than another servant of God enable that servant to BE the very God he is a servant OF?  

If one is a servant OF God, then no matter how great that particular SERVANT is, he will never actually BE God.

In your twisted, crooked path walking mind, our Almighty God Jesus serves our Almighty God the Father – leaving us with TWO Almighty Gods – something the word “Almighty”, in and of itself, doesn't even allow for……….. nevermind the hundreds of scriptures that speak about our ONE God and Creator. 

But this is not the thread for your crooked paths, Kathi.  This thread is for discussing whether or not Jesus Christ pre-existed his flesh.  If you have an opinion on THAT issue, feel welcome to join into the discussion.  Try to stay on topic, okay?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 06 2013,09:13)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2013,13:20) Do you believe that God's Holy Spirit is the SON OF God?  YES or NO? Mike……..your answer is yes and no.  Yes it is when “IT” is “IN” you and “NO” if “IT” is not in you , “YES” , It is the Spirit of God that makes his children. So from that perspective the answer is YES.

I believe you are confused, Gene.  If I understand you right, you are saying that it is God's Holy Spirit that can make YOU a son of God, right?

And if that IS what you're saying, it doesn't actually answer the question I asked you.  I asked if the Holy Spirit of God (ALL BY ITSELF) is the Son of God, like Kerwin and 2B are now claiming.

Please answer THAT question.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 06 2013,10:18)

Lighten up……….I agree with you regarding Mikes behavior at times.

Ed has a thread called “Yes or No questions that cannot be answered with a Yes or No”.

The thread was designed by Ed to show examples of where I ask “loaded” questions that cannot be answered the way I've asked them.  Lots of people have joined in that discussion – many of them even agreeing with Ed that I do ask “loaded” questions.

Yet, for some strange reason, when challenged by me to PRODUCE an example of me doing this, NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON has EVER been able to.

I suggest that you and Kathi go to that thread, and copy and paste examples of me “talking out of both sides of my mouth”.  If you cannot, you are just spouting empty accusations, like Ed was.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 06 2013,10:23)

Mike …….here is a question for you,   1) Do you believe GOD AND HIS WORD ARE ONE AND THE SAME. YES OR NO, PLEASE 2) Do you believe GOD'S SPIRIT is PART OF GOD ?    YES OR NO,  PLEASE Peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

1. No.

2. Yes.

(See how easy that is, Gene?)

[Proclaimer]

Go for it Gene.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 06 2013,10:28)

Abe…………AMEN,  Brother,  it is the spirit of God that makes us his children . For if a person has not the spirit of God  they simply are non of his,  just as it says. Peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

Romans 8:15
……..the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”

I have no disagreement with what Gene DID say about us being sons of God via Spirit. After all, we must be born again of spirit and water, right?

But that is not the question I actually ASKED Gene. Perhaps this time he will answer the question I actually asked him.

You can answer it too, Abe. And I'd also like to hear Kathi's answer to that question. Here it is once more:

Is the Holy Spirit of God (ALL BY ITSELF) the Son of God? YES or NO?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2013,11:18)

Yet, for some strange reason, when challenged by me to PRODUCE an example of me doing this, NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON has EVER been able to.

What gives guys?

If you are going to make an accusation, then show the proof.
False accusations are what Jesus suffered.
So if we suffer the same, then we suffer with Christ, which is a great priviledge.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 05 2013,20:48)

Mike, How can the “finger of God” be the Holy Spirit?

I can't explain to you WHY Luke quoted Jesus as saying “finger of God”, when Matthew quoted him as saying “Spirit of God” – but the teaching seems to be the same in both books.

So I don't believe God's finger is LITERALLY His Spirit, but I believe “finger of God” was a metaphorical way of saying “Spirit of God”.

After all, what exactly DID Jesus drive out demons by? Wasn't it the Holy Spirit of God? If so, then why does Luke quote Jesus as saying he drives out demons by the FINGER of God?

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