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2besee……..If we consider Jesus' words alone about God, it becomes evident there are no other “TRUE” God's, and if there are no other “TRUE” God;s , then Mike should understand all other so-called Gods are “FALSE” God's . Even the scribes said unto him, Well , Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is “ONE GOD”; and there is “NONE OTHER” but he.
Kerwin is right i do tend to get emotional at times brother. Especially with regards to who is a God.
I do understand Mikes point that the word Elohim implies Powers and that can be at different levels in word structure, But as i also told him the original word Elohim came from a Hebrew PICTORIAL Language , which was drawn as a Ox head with a Staff next to it , This symbol was understood as the POWER (OX) they TRUSTED or LEANED ON to guide them (STAFF)…> and this was not given to anyone else, but ONE GOD> But Mike is trying to make his case that Jesus was a God and therefore advancing their theory that the Word in John 1:1 is speaking of a “little” god (Jesus) can be a acceptable teaching. IMO
Anyway 2bsee your posts i believe are led by the Spirit I can tell, and are a good source of encouragement to all who have the Spirit of God . in them. So please continue to post as you are led brother.
peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
2bee
Quote Mike, All of these verses can be understood IF you understand the Son to be the (eternal) Holy Spirit, with the Son Jesus.
see ,what you say ” IF ” this word is the poison that comes from the devil because an “IF ” is not real ,it give a glimmering effect but can not be trust for it is only there for the moment of that “IF”
scriptures are not made that way , BECAUSE CHRIST SAYS ; Jn 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
THE ONLY REASON WHY SOME DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES HIS BECAUSE THEY ARE STILL IN THIS WORLD ,WHILE THE TRUE BELIEVERS ARE;Jn 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
AND FOR THOSE THAT HAVE FOLLOW THEM IT SAYS ;Jn 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message
THE ONLY “if” I KNOW IN SCRIPTURES IS THIS ONES;;
DT 28:2 “All these blessings will come upon you and overtake you “IF”” you obey the LORD your God:
DT 30:10 if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, “”IF”” you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.
and those “IF” are based on a decision making
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 17 2013,02:50) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 16 2013,12:47) Gene, Ed and others answer that impression emotionally by quoting Jehovah where he states he is the only GOD. You respond by pointing out that scripture speaks of many gods that are on earth and in heaven. How do you advance the conversation by clearing up the misunderstanding?
I'm WORKING ON IT, Kerwin. Why don't you continue to help? (Is it because you've now experienced what I often do – that these guys simply don't CARE what the scriptures actually teach?)I've pointed out MANY scriptures in the “Indeed there ARE many gods” thread.
I've made comparisons to other EMPHATICAL statements in the Bible, like where Jesus says “only God is good” – when it is clear that Jesus and others are also “good”.
And now I'm RE-pointing out that the scriptures don't say Jehovah is the only “GOD” – like you've stated. Instead, Jehovah says there is no “ELOHIM” besides Him – when in fact, the scriptures are LOADED with other elohim. Surely this ought to prove that His statement was EMPHATICAL, and not LITERAL, right? But no…………. they don't WANT to hear the TRUTH of the scriptures – because they've already got their minds made up on the matter.
You tell me what else I should do.
Mike,When Jesus states that no one but Jehovah is good he is not saying that no one is good compared to Jehovah but he is saying that God is our goodness.
If you do not have the Spirit then you cannot have the fruits of righteousness.
The Spirit is our goodness.
When Jehovah states he is the only God he is not making an empathetical statement but he is instead being literal as he is the only one deserving of ritual worship. The rest are gods because of their limited power, righteousness, or for some other reason.
When you say Jehovah is emphasizing then you give the impression that you believe that you “confuse messengers being called gods with Jehovah being called God”.
I am instead going by your answer, which is:
Quote I most definitely know the difference between the MOST HIGH elohim, Jehovah, and the other elohim He created. And yes, they ARE the “same kind” in MANY ways. Can they talk? Can they see? Are they spirit beings? Are they holy?
This is just a list off the top of my head. They are the “same kind” in MANY ways.
Gene,
Quote I do understand Mikes point that the word Elohim implies Powers and that can be at different levels in word structure, But as i also told him the original word Elohim came from a Hebrew PICTORIAL Language , which was draw as a Ox head with a Staff next to it , This symbol was understood as the POWER (OX) the TRUSTED or LEANED ON to guide them (STAFF)…> and this was not given to anyone else but ONE GOD> But Mike is trying to make his case that Jesus was a God and therefore advancing there theory that the Words in John 1:1 is speaking of a “little” god (Jesus) can be a acceptable teaching. IMO That is what you should write to Mike.
Hi LU.
I believe that the Father; the Holy Spirit; Jesus; and all believers, are one as far as Scriptures tells us that we are one (John 17:20-26, etc)
Hi LU,
Further to what I said,
I believe that God as the creator of the world created all through his own spoken word and through his own spirit just as we have our own spirit and our own spoken word, all of those things, and much more, making up US.
So, I believe in ONE GOD only. That God being the same God as Jesus had.
I believe that God was truly in Jesus who was a man, though He did not have a father – hence, He was the SECOND ADAM, and the savior of the world. I believe that God was in Him through His spirit and spoke His word through Him.
I believe that the Holy Spirit has also been called the Son of God, as Spirit which is God gives birth to Spirit which is the holy Spirit.
I believe that Jesus is in humanity, and that is why He, as the savior, through the Father, saves us, and is present in every single person, in some way. So, then, when you do it to one of the least of these (human beings) you do it to Him, therefore, those who are humble and compassionate, and those who are like Jesus, are called His brethren.
Just my thoughts, only, for the day.
Maybe wrong or maybe right.Mike……….I agree with what Jesus said there is “ONLY ONE” that is Good, and that is God . If you consider all life and all Good and Evil comes of ONE SOVERIGN GOD. Good and Evil are created Spirits and GOD is there source. Even the Good that is in us is from God alone and if we agree God is the source of all Good, and it comes from him then we understand that God alone is the true embodyment of good, Because he alone is it's source .
Mike we go to what is God to become Good , good is a creation in us by God , who takes out of us the “stony” Heart and give us a”SOFT” Heart, and Writes “HIS” laws on our hearts and minds. God is not just Good he is the creater of what is good ,He alone IS Good even if he puts his goodness in us, we are vessels of that goodness that comes from him. IMO
peace and lvoe to you and yours………………………….Mike
Quote (2besee @ Feb. 18 2013,03:46) Hi LU, Further to what I said,
I believe that God as the creator of the world created all through his own spoken word and through his own spirit just as we have our own spirit and our own spoken word, all of those things, and much more, making up US.
So, I believe in ONE GOD only. That God being the same God as Jesus had.
I believe that God was truly in Jesus who was a man, though He did not have a father – hence, He was the SECOND ADAM, and the savior of the world. I believe that God was in Him through His spirit and spoke His word through Him.
I believe that the Holy Spirit has also been called the Son of God, as Spirit which is God gives birth to Spirit which is the holy Spirit.
I believe that Jesus is in humanity, and that is why He, as the savior, through the Father, saves us, and is present in every single person, in some way. So, then, when you do it to one of the least of these (human beings) you do it to Him, therefore, those who are humble and compassionate, and those who are like Jesus, are called His brethren.
Just my thoughts, only, for the day.
Maybe wrong or maybe right.
Hi 2besee,Thanks for your explanation! That's a mouthful. I believe in the interdependency of Father, Son and Spirit in the oneness of God. I'm thinking that God is teaching me more and more lately about this interdependency and it is so cool!!
Take care and God bless!!
Quote (2besee @ Feb. 16 2013,16:53) Mike, perhaps it is that Gene and Ed etc, believe as scriptures state that there is only one God (TO US) despite what other may say, much like if we were to argue that there are many Jesus' (those with that name) but to us, there is only one who is JESUS, and if people would argue that, no, there are many Jesus'!, then their answer would be “NO – there is only ONE JESUS”, and so it would go on.
That is FREAKING BRILLIANT, 2B!
Gene, you say that you can tell 2B is led by the Spirit, right? So why not LISTEN TO HIM?
Do you understand his point above? Do you understand how YOU could say to me, “Mike, there is only ONE Jesus as far as I'm concerned”. And then I could say to you, “No Gene, there is at least one OTHER Jesus mentioned in the scriptures, so there CAN'T BE just ONE Jesus!”
And then we go back and forth and back and forth……….. all because of the EMPHATICAL statement YOU made in the first place. Of course LITERALLY, there are MANY who have been named “Jesus/Joshua”, right? But you could still EMPHATICALLY tell me that there is only ONE Jesus.
So as an EMPHATICAL statement, YOU would be right, because there was only ONE Jesus by which we are saved. But LITERALLY, I would be the correct one.
Are you able to see this?
Quote (2besee @ Feb. 17 2013,01:58) Mike, All of these verses can be understood IF you understand the Son to be the (eternal) Holy Spirit, with the Son Jesus.
Hi 2B,Like I asked Kerwin, please let me finish all the verses with my “Jesus” comparisons.
THEN, we will go down those same verses trying to use “God Himself” and “The Holy Spirit Son” – to see if those things fit ALL of the things John said about “the Word”.
Right now, I only want to be interupted IF you can scripturally and absolutely refute any comparison I'm making between “the Word”, and “Jesus”.
peace,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 17 2013,09:43) ……if there are no other “TRUE” God;s , then Mike should understand all other so-called Gods are “FALSE” God's .
Okay Gene. We are getting to the place I wanted to take you. It is a fact of scripture that Jesus is called by the title “god”. So are you claiming that your Lord and Savior is a FALSE god? YES or NO?(Kerwin has already plainly told us all that his Lord Jesus Christ is “EVIL”. Will you now join his ranks and call your Lord a “false god”?)
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 17 2013,09:43) I do understand Mikes point that the word Elohim implies Powers and that can be at different levels in word structure………..
Wow. Now was that so hard, Gene? So since Satan is also a very powerful being that Jehovah created, he can rightly be called “elohim”, right? (Just like he IS called in scripture, right?)And the same would go for Jesus, Michael, Gabriel……. and even Samuel and Deborah, right? (Since Jesus, angels and humans ARE called elohim in scripture, right?)
Now does it mean that ANY OF THEM compare to the one elohim who created all things? Of course not.
Does it mean we should worship these others who are called elohim in scripture? Of course not – for we are to worship the Creator, not any of His creations.
BUT………….. Does it mean that all these servants of Jehovah are “false gods”? Absolutely not.
And THIS is what the scriptures actually teach: There are MANY GODS and MANY LORDS, both IN HEAVEN, and ON EARTH. But EMPHATICALLY SPEAKING, for us Christians, there is but ONE God, Jehovah, and ONE Lord, Jesus Christ.
(Does this mean that Jehovah is NOT also a lord? Of course not. Does it mean that Satan and Jesus are NOT also gods? Of course not. Why? Because Paul was speaking EMPHATICALLY about Jesus being the ONLY lord. Likewise, he was speaking EMPHATICALLY about Jehovah being the ONLY god. And how can we know this? Because he started his statement by plainly and clearly telling us that there ARE INDEED MANY GODS – both IN HEAVEN and ON EARTH.)
At any rate, it's nice to finally hear you acknowledge what I've been saying all along. (Thanks to 2B and Kerwin for your help in this matter.)
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2013,11:52) Mike, When Jesus states that no one but Jehovah is good he is not saying that no one is good compared to Jehovah but he is saying that God is our goodness.
Kerwin,I'm going to have to pull a “jammin” on you here: Don't explain, boy.
The words are “only God is good”……….. PERIOD! Don't go writing your own words into the scriptures, okay? It is a PERFECT example of an emphatical statement. Jesus EMPHATICALLY tells the man that ONLY God is good. If we were to take his statement LITERALLY, it would mean that NO OTHER BEING IN EXISTENCE was good. Not Jesus, who came to save us. Not his angels, who will help him fight Satan and his hordes. Not Abraham, or Moses, or Noah, or Samuel. NOBODY.
So, you keep on believing that Jesus is EVIL (your word) just to be “right” on this point. As for me, I'll understand it the COMMON SENSE way it SHOULD be understood – as an EMPHATICAL statement designed by Jesus to lower himself as the servant, while placing the One he serves on the pedestal.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2013,11:52) When Jehovah states he is the only God he is not making an empathetical statement but he is instead being literal……………… The rest are gods because of………….
Your statements contradict themselves, Kerwin. You can't logically say God was speaking LITERALLY, and then turn right around and start talking about these OTHER gods.Remember that Jehovah didn't call Himself a “God” with a CAPITAL “G” – while calling the others “gods” with a small “g”. Instead, He said there were no elohim besides Him, when we know for a fact there are many – including Satan, Jesus, angels, demons, and men.
That, in and of itself, makes His statement either A LIE, or EMPHATICAL. Which one do you suppose it was?
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2013,11:57) Gene, Quote Mike is trying to make his case that Jesus was a God and therefore advancing there theory that the Words in John 1:1 is speaking of a “little” god (Jesus) can be a acceptable teaching. IMO That is what you should write to Mike.
It's funny to read those words from Gene, because I came SO CLOSE to saying the same thing in that post where I asked you to tell me what I should do!
I almost wrote this to you, Kerwin:
I am not on Heaven Net to babysit. I refuse to put on kid gloves and sugarcoat the words of the Holy Scriptures just so Gene and Ed can feel “good” about what the scriptures teach. I will continue to tell it like it is – whether they like it or cry about it.
You and I both know that the ONLY reason Gene and Ed buck so hard against the scriptures on this “elohim” issue is because they know that if they DO admit the truth – that others in scripture are called gods – then they'll have to also admit the truth that Jesus is called a god. And if they admit that Jesus is called a god, then they'll have to seriously consider John 1 from a truthful angle – one that they have thus far been avoiding like it was the plague. And once they take those “only one literal god” blinders off, they might see the things I've been posting on this thread for the scriptural truth that they are. And then what? They might be forced to accept the scriptural truth about Jesus being “the Word” in John 1 – just like he is “the Word” in the Revelation written by the same author.
Yep, that's what I WAS going to write to you last time. But now I don't really have to, because we have all already heard it from the horse's mouth. What Gene is saying, in a nutshell, is:
Kerwin, I CAN'T allow myself to believe that other gods exist, or else I'll have to accept the truth that Jesus IS one of these “little gods” spoken of in scripture. And once I admit this scriptural truth, I'll be forced to recognize that Jesus just might have been the “god” who was with THE God in the beginning.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 18 2013,09:01) Mike……….I agree with what Jesus said there is “ONLY ONE” that is Good, and that is God . Mike we go to what is God to become Good………..
We can't possibly even BECOME “good” if God is LITERALLY the ONLY “good” one.Gene, do you think your Lord Jesus Christ is “good”? Or do you think like Kerwin, that your Lord and Savior is “EVIL”?
Which one please? (And for once, just answer a direct question with a direct answer. Do not explain. The question requires one of only two possible answers: “Good”, or “Evil”.)
Mike, Gene, kerwin, etc,
Jesus was likely just looking for a measure of faith within the boy by asking Him a question. The boy did not respond with faith.
Maybe there should be a topic listing all of Jesus' questions and which ones were answered correctly and which ones weren't.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 19 2013,10:25) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 18 2013,03:46) Hi LU, Further to what I said,
I believe that God as the creator of the world created all through his own spoken word and through his own spirit just as we have our own spirit and our own spoken word, all of those things, and much more, making up US.
So, I believe in ONE GOD only. That God being the same God as Jesus had.
I believe that God was truly in Jesus who was a man, though He did not have a father – hence, He was the SECOND ADAM, and the savior of the world. I believe that God was in Him through His spirit and spoke His word through Him.
I believe that the Holy Spirit has also been called the Son of God, as Spirit which is God gives birth to Spirit which is the holy Spirit.
I believe that Jesus is in humanity, and that is why He, as the savior, through the Father, saves us, and is present in every single person, in some way. So, then, when you do it to one of the least of these (human beings) you do it to Him, therefore, those who are humble and compassionate, and those who are like Jesus, are called His brethren.
Just my thoughts, only, for the day.
Maybe wrong or maybe right.Hi 2besee,
Thanks for your explanation! That's a mouthful. I believe in the interdependency of Father, Son and Spirit in the oneness of God. I'm thinking that God is teaching me more and more lately about this interdependency and it is so cool!!
Take care and God bless!!
LU,Good on you,
God bless.
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