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Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2013,14:12) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 14 2013,08:59) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 13 2013,07:47) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 13 2013,07:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2013,04:36) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2013,16:15) No creature is good without God is a paraphrase of only God is good.
So then creatures WITH God CAN BE “good”, making the statement “only God is good” an EMPHATICAL statement instead of a LITERAL one – like I've been saying this whole time.Kerwin, do you go out of your way just to NOT agree with me? You know what I've been saying all along. And you know it is correct. Why are you making this molehill into a mountain?
Mike,I am making the case that each and every creature needs Jehovah to be good.
Mike,Typo corrected.
KQuote I am making the case that each and every creature needs Jehovah to be good that his also false ,think about it ,is this what scriptures says
T,Yes.
If you not have the Spirit then all you have is the flesh. The fruit of the flesh is evil.
If you have the Spirit then you have God.
Kthe spirit you say his the knowledge and understanding of the one you serve ,GOD right
Ro 3:10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
Ro 3:11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
Ro 3:12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
Ro 3:13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
Ro 3:14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
Ro 3:15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Ro 3:16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
Ro 3:17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
Ro 3:18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Ro 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Ro 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.Ro 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
Ro 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
Ro 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Ro 3:24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Ro 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
Ro 3:26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
Ro 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.
Ro 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
Ro 3:29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
Ro 3:30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
Ro 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.T,
Quote the spirit you say his the knowledge and understanding of the one you serve ,GOD right It is as you say.
No one is declared righteous under the Law.
The Spirit is apart from the Law.
Those that live by the Spirit are not under the Law.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2013,02:32) Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.God knows a man before he is conceived.
That doesn't say anything at all about Jeremiah HAVING GLORY before the world began.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2013,02:32) 1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:God ordained the receiving of “our glory” before the World came to be.
That verse speaks of God having predestined a hidden wisdom before the ages. That predestined wisdom would ultimately be for our glory. Again, the scripture you quoted doesn't say anything at all about a person HAVING GLORY before the world began.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2013,02:32) Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.Many sons receive their glory that God had with him since before the World began.
First of all, that verse doesn't say anything about God “HAVING ANYONE'S GLORY WITH HIM“. Secondly, it definitely doesn't say anything at all about those sons HAVING GLORY before the world began.Kerwin, it seems you are doing a better job of showing your misunderstanding of many scriptures than you are of scripturally supporting your point.
Now, not one of the scriptures you quoted speak about anyone “HAVING GLORY” before the world began. 17:5, on the other hand, SPECIFICALLY and EXPLICITELY has Jesus talking about the glory HE HAD before the world began.
There is no reason for me to keep saying the same things to you. You have no rebuttal to my use of 17:5. You never have had one, and you never will. The words are as stands: Jesus was asking to have his previous glory returned to him – now that he had emptied himself, was made as a human, and had accomplished the task for which God had sent him in the first place.
This is what the words teach. You can buck against that common sense and most obvious understanding of those words if you'd like – but you can NEVER show a scripture that PROHIBITS that understanding from being the correct one.
And like I keep telling you, until you are able to scripturally PROHIBIT my understanding of 17:5 – by proving that those words couldn't possibly reflect Jesus asking for the return of a previous glory – you have no rebuttal.
It's not like I'm claiming bizarre and oddball things from those words, Kerwin. If a person says, “And now glorify me with the glory I HAD”, the idea that this person is asking to have a previous glory restored upon him is completely reasonable, rational, and sane.
In fact, to understand those words any OTHER way would be the irrational thing.
So, I'm done defending 17:5 to you for now. Nothing I say will ever be “good enough” to appease you, because you have already made up your mind that those words can't possibly have the most obvious and sensible meaning. And that is because you simply DON'T WANT those words to have the most obvious and sensible meaning.
I cannot help you with that problem, Kerwin…….. because you don't listen to me or to the words of the scriptures. It seems you've closed your mind to the rational, the sensible, and the obvious.
I will now move on with the exercise. (In case you haven't noticed, I have so far listed NINE different scriptural comparisons between “the Word” and “Jesus”. There are still many more to come.)
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 13 2013,21:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2013,11:17) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 13 2013,08:46) Kerwin……..Mike Just can't seem to understand “ALL” created thing have there Glory before they are ever Made.
Show me that in scripture, Gene. If you can't, then don't make the claim, okay?
Mike……..Does common sense mean any thing to you?
I take it that you are unable to show me the scripture? In that case, re-read what I said in the quote box above.Mike,
Some would argue that God knew Jeremiah before he was in his mother's womb and therefore Jeremiah existed in order to be known.
“I had” an inheritance with God before I was in my mother's womb can be viewed the same way.
Neither of them are sound conclusions.
So far, we've learned that the following things cannot be scripturally refuted:
1. John 1:1c can be faithfully translated as “and the Word was a god”. (Many expert Greek scholars)
2. Jesus is called a god in scripture. (Is 9:6, Heb 1:8-9, etc.)
3. Jesus was with God before the world began. (John 17:5)
4. All things were said to have been made through our Lord Jesus Christ. (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)
5. In Jesus was life. (John 5:26)
6. Jesus was the “light of the world”, and the “light of life”. (John 8:12)
7. Jesus was the light that shined in the darkness. (Matthew 4:16, 2 Corinthians 4:6)
8. The one John the Baptist came to testify about was Jesus Christ. (John 1:29-34; 3:26; 5:32-36)
9. Jesus is the true light, that gives light to every man. (Isaiah 42:6-7; John 12:35-36, 46; Luke 1:78-79)
Moving on………………..
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
For “the world was made through him”, see the notes on point #4 above. As for the rest of verse 10:
Isaiah 53:3
He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.John 4:10
Jesus answered her, “If you knew who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”Acts 13:27
The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath.John 12
37 Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: “Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”1 John 3:1
The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.There are many more scriptures I could list for this comparison, but these should suffice. They clearly teach that the world, to whom Jesus was sent, did not recognize him for who he truly was.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2013,15:32) Mike, Some would argue that God knew Jeremiah before he was in his mother's womb and therefore Jeremiah existed in order to be known.
I'm not one of those people. Are you? If not, the point is moot.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2013,15:32) “I had” an inheritance with God before I was in my mother's womb can be viewed the same way.
The words “I HAD” do not convey an inheritance that someone IS EXPECTING. Nor does Jesus speak of any “inheritance” in 17:5. Nor does he speak of God “holding” a certain glory for him.Instead, he speaks of the glory HE HIMSELF HAD before the world began.
Kerwin, you are transparent. It is clear to all who read these posts that you are reaching SO FAR to any irrational explanation you can think of – just to AVOID the clear and rational understanding of the words in 17:5.
But like I keep saying, “would be's” and “could be's” don't matter anyway. There is NO scripture in the whole of the Bible that would PROHIBIT Jesus from speaking about the glory HE HIMSELF HAD with God before the world began.
And that IS what the words CLEARLY imply. Therefore, you have rebutted nothing. (You haven't even gone as far as to cast a shadow of doubt on my current understanding.)
Kerwin,
Do you think that if you took off your non-preexistent blinders for just a second, you'd be able to agree with these following words from my last post?
It's not like I'm claiming bizarre and oddball things from those words, Kerwin. If a person says, “And now glorify me with the glory I HAD”, the idea that this person is asking to have a previous glory restored upon him is completely reasonable, rational, and sane.
In fact, to understand those words any OTHER way would be the irrational thing.
Mike…….How many times I have quoted this to you guys,
What is man? , thou has made him a little lower then the angels , ( please notice Mike)' thou hast crowned him with “glory and honor”, thou has placed “ALL” things under his feet , in that thou hast placed “all” things under mans feet there “is NOTHING” that ( now notice again Mike a present tense expression) “that is not under mans feet”. That mike is glory and honor and all things under mans feet mans feet as if it already happened in the past envelope though it has no “YET” happened.
We're you able to follow this Mike ? , we can like Jesus say we have it with god before the world ever existed too.
And again……. whom he “foreknew he also “predestined “ to be conformed to the image of his son, . It was Gods plan all alone to creat us as his son and we had that same glory as Jesus has all along , from the very start of Gods creation.
Jesus did not preexist his berth on this earth as any kind of sentinel being he existed only in the plan and will of the only true GOD. INO
Peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Gene,
There is nothing in that post you just made that says men have glory with God before they're born. God already DID crown man with glory. And God already DID place all things (on earth) under his feet. These things have already happened, Gene.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2013,15:10) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,13:12) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 11 2013,16:55) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) 1. Who does the scripture say prayed these things? Jesus? Or “the Holy Spirit speaking through Jesus”? The Holy Spirit and Jesus were as if one (think Elijah and john the Baptist).
So then the Holy Spirit OF God, who is also the Son OF God, and at the same time God HIMSELF, prayed to HIMSELF, and asked for glory from HIMSELF?2B, you are digging a hole for yourself.
So when Jesus left our world and sent another, he sent another version of himself?T8 and Mike,
Look closely at John 14:15-23 (Do not skim read — read it closely — get your Bibles out!)
—————
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever…….”
(interesting point, the Greek has “will give you another helper that I AM WITH YOU to the age (Strongs #1510 ᾖ ⇔) http://biblos.com/john/14-16.htm
Continued:
“……..even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for HE DWELLS WITH YOU, AND WILL BE IN YOU.
“I will not leave you desolate; I will come to you.……..”
WHO would come to them? Jesus said HE would come to them yet it was the Holy Spirit that came to them………..
“…….Yet a little while, and the world will see me no more, but you will see me; because I live, you will live also.
In that day you will know that I AM IN MY FATHER, AND YOU IN ME, AND I IN YOU.
He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?”
Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and WE WILL COME TO HIM AND MAKE OUR HOME WITH HIM.”
HOW IS THAT SO? The Father is in Heaven, Jesus is in heaven. How so but through the Holy Spirit — yet Jesus just finished saying that HE would come.
“He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.
“These things I have spoken to you, WHILE I AM STILL WITH YOU.
But the Counselor, THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND in my name, HE will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.
You heard me say to you, `I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I GO TO THE FATHER' FOR THE FATHER IS GREATER THAT I
And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place, you may believe.
I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me; but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go hence.”
—————-
Figure it out if you are able to.
Looking forward to you view on this.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 15 2013,12:21) Gene, There is nothing in that post you just made that says men have glory with God before they're born. God already DID crown man with glory. And God already DID place all things (on earth) under his feet. These things have already happened, Gene.
Mike, Does God know everything that will happen before it happens?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 15 2013,04:39) Kerwin, Do you think that if you took off your non-preexistent blinders for just a second, you'd be able to agree with these following words from my last post?
It's not like I'm claiming bizarre and oddball things from those words, Kerwin. If a person says, “And now glorify me with the glory I HAD”, the idea that this person is asking to have a previous glory restored upon him is completely reasonable, rational, and sane.
In fact, to understand those words any OTHER way would be the irrational thing.
Mike,It does not even make sense to say give me the glory I already have.
On the other hand it does make sense to ask for your inheritance. The prodigal son asked that of his father.
You are seeing return to me the glory I had while I was with you before the world began.
Part of Jesus glory is sacrificing himself on the cross that each and every human may come to know God. His resurrection, ascension, and mediation are also parts . After all, he previously stated:
John 17:1
King James Version (KJV)17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Jesus glorifies God by his self sacrifice, resurrection, ascension, and mediation.
Mike,
Quote 1. John 1:1c can be faithfully translated as “and the Word was a god”. (Many expert Greek scholars) 2. Jesus is called a god in scripture. (Is 9:6, Heb 1:8-9, etc.)
Just because “and the Word was a god” may be a possible translation does not mean it is a true translation.
God is generic. It does not even have to be a person.
I favor God because God is in Jesus.
each and every one of the children of Israel are called gods by Scripture.Quote (2besee @ Feb. 14 2013,17:39) But the Counselor, THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND in my name………..
Your answer lies in the above words, 2B. The Counselor, of whom Jesus was speaking, was the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit can't be the Father, because the Father is the one who was to SEND the Holy Spirit. And it can't be Jesus, because Jesus is the one whose name it would be sent in.So THREE DIFFERENT things are discussed in that one little sentence:
1. The Holy Spirit
2. The Father
3. JesusAs for your other point, yes Jesus asked the Father to send the Holy Spirit. And yes, Jesus would ALSO be coming to his disciples – at first via spirit, and later, at his second coming.
And yes, the Father ALSO can dwell in them, via spirit. And, when New Jersalem comes, the Father will physically dwell among us.
So the Holy Spirit, Jesus, AND the Father will all come. It doesn't mean they are all one and the same thing though.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2013,18:38) Mike, It does not even make sense to say give me the glory I already have.
HAD, Kerwin. Not have. Of course someone wouldn't ask for something they already HAVE. But they could surely ask for something they HAD, which they don't currently have any longer, can't they? (Please answer this question DIRECTLY)Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2013,18:38) You are seeing return to me the glory I had while I was with you before the world began.
YES. That is EXACTLY what I'm seeing, because that is EXACTLY what the words are saying. Glorify me NOW (again, currently, at this time) with the glory I HAD (used to have) before the world began.Kerwin, WHY are we still talking about this? Have you come up with any SCRIPTURAL support that PROHIBITS my understanding of 17:5 from being the correct one? If not, let it go. I don't really care that you, out of necessity for your doctrine, have a DIFFERENT understanding of that verse. I'm asking for scriptural proof that MY understanding CAN'T POSSIBLY BE the correct one.
If you cannot produce that, then you cannot refute my understanding. And in that case, just let it go.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2013,18:50) Just because “and the Word was a god” may be a possible translation………….
Enough said. You have acknowledged that you cannot refute my first point.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2013,18:50) I favor God because God is in Jesus.
Okay. I am already planning to take your favorite down the same test of verses that I'm currently taking my favorite. So, as soon as I'm done with the “Jesus” comparisons, be prepared to answer verse by verse how “God Almighty the Father” fits into each verse, okay?(I'm also going to do it with the Holy Spirit, for 2B's sake)
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2013,18:50) each and every one of the children of Israel are called gods by Scripture.
Very good. So since Jesus is actually the Lord of the “children of Israel”, what you've posted lends even more credence to Jesus being “a god” who was with THE God in the beginning.Jesus himself says as much in John 10:35-36, If he called them ‘gods,’……… what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Thanks for the help.
Quote (2besee @ Feb. 14 2013,18:10) Mike, Does God know everything that will happen before it happens?
I don't know. We know from scripture that He knows the end from the beginning. But then other scriptures are written in such a way as to suggest that God didn't know the outcome until it happened.I think God CAN know everything that will happen. But I don't think He always WANTS to know. I think that most times, He's content with watching things progress, and HOPING that this servant or that servant will end up doing the right thing.
If you could know EVERYTHING that is going to happen, would you WANT to? Wouldn't that make it rather boring just watching things you already know are going to take place? Like going to a great newly released movie – but already knowing every line, plot, twist, and ending. What fun would that be?
These are my thoughts. I have scriptures to support them if you're interested.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 15 2013,10:21) Gene, There is nothing in that post you just made that says men have glory with God before they're born. God already DID crown man with glory. And God already DID place all things (on earth) under his feet. These things have already happened, Gene.
Mike……..Then if man has already received his Glory and honor and “all” things under his foot as you”presume” then why did scripture continue to say but we do not “now” see man crowned with glory and honor and all things under his feet, but what do we see , we see Jesus “now.” crowned with glory and honor and all things are now subjected to him.Tell us Mike now what do you do with those scriptures. Do you act like they simply do no exist, or like there not there ?
Peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
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