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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2013,04:36) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2013,16:15) No creature is good without God is a paraphrase of only God is good.
So then creatures WITH God CAN BE “good”, making the statement “only God is good” an EMPHATICAL statement instead of a LITERAL one – like I've been saying this whole time.Kerwin, do you go out of your way just to NOT agree with me? You know what I've been saying all along. And you know it is correct. Why are you making this molehill into a mountain?
Mike,I am making the case that each and every creature needs Jehovah to be good.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2013,19:24) Mike, Quote Jesus was with God before the world began. (John 17:5) That scripture does not support your claim.
John 17:5 NRSV ©
So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.Kerwin, I realize that you feel it is necessary to your doctrine that you twist and butcher the above words to your own liking.
But unless you can honestly say, with scriptural support, that the words CAN'T POSSIBLY be translated and understood exactly as they are quoted from the NRSV above – you have no rebuttal.
Well?
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2013,19:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2013,04:36) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2013,16:15) No creature is good without God is a paraphrase of only God is good.
So then creatures WITH God CAN BE “good”, making the statement “only God is good” an EMPHATICAL statement instead of a LITERAL one – like I've been saying this whole time.Kerwin, do you go out of your way just to NOT agree with me? You know what I've been saying all along. And you know it is correct. Why are you making this molehill into a mountain?
Mike,I am making the case that each and every creature Jehovah to be good.
I don't know what you just said, Kerwin.But let's make this easy. Forget all the “because of's”, okay?
The bottom line is: Is your Lord Jesus Christ good, or evil?
I don't want to hear “Good, BECAUSE………” Because all I'll hear is “GOOD………..”
And the REAL bottom line is this: Jesus says “only God is good”, and then teaches parables about “good” human beings, and their “good” actions.
That means “only God is good” was an EMPHATICAL statement, and not a LITERAL one.
End of story.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2013,07:44) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2013,19:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2013,04:36) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2013,16:15) No creature is good without God is a paraphrase of only God is good.
So then creatures WITH God CAN BE “good”, making the statement “only God is good” an EMPHATICAL statement instead of a LITERAL one – like I've been saying this whole time.Kerwin, do you go out of your way just to NOT agree with me? You know what I've been saying all along. And you know it is correct. Why are you making this molehill into a mountain?
Mike,I am making the case that each and every creature Jehovah to be good.
I don't know what you just said, Kerwin.But let's make this easy. Forget all the “because of's”, okay?
The bottom line is: Is your Lord Jesus Christ good, or evil?
I don't want to hear “Good, BECAUSE………” Because all I'll hear is “GOOD………..”
And the REAL bottom line is this: Jesus says “only God is good”, and then teaches parables about “good” human beings, and their “good” actions.
That means “only God is good” was an EMPHATICAL statement, and not a LITERAL one.
End of story.
Mike,A typo that is corrected now.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 13 2013,07:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2013,04:36) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2013,16:15) No creature is good without God is a paraphrase of only God is good.
So then creatures WITH God CAN BE “good”, making the statement “only God is good” an EMPHATICAL statement instead of a LITERAL one – like I've been saying this whole time.Kerwin, do you go out of your way just to NOT agree with me? You know what I've been saying all along. And you know it is correct. Why are you making this molehill into a mountain?
Mike,I am making the case that each and every creature needs Jehovah to be good.
Mike,Typo corrected.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2013,07:39) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2013,19:24) Mike, Quote Jesus was with God before the world began. (John 17:5) That scripture does not support your claim.
John 17:5 NRSV ©
So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.Kerwin, I realize that you feel it is necessary to your doctrine that you twist and butcher the above words to your own liking.
But unless you can honestly say, with scriptural support, that the words CAN'T POSSIBLY be translated and understood exactly as they are quoted from the NRSV above – you have no rebuttal.
Well?
Mike,You are reading your doctrine into Jesus' words.
Believers had their glory with God before the World began as “those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters”, Romans 8:29.
Kerwin……..Mike Just can't seem to understand “ALL” created thing have there Glory before they are ever Made. Very much like a Home or Large Skyscraper. The new building replacing the twin towers in New York, Before it ever existed it had it's Glory.in it's planning stage. The same with Man and Jesus also. I just can't understand why Mike can't understand that simple explanation.
I believe if he did it would be a type of admission he may be wrong in other things he believes in and preaches to us also.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2013,09:51) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 12 2013,15:38) Mike…..HERE IS YOUR “ONE” QUESTION , do you believe like the serpent who told Eve. That they would be as gods knowing good and evil after they took of the fruit, It appears you do, by what you are saying right?
This is just another of your YES OR NO questions. So please answer it as yes or no.
“YES” Gene, I do.Genesis 3
5 “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
See how easy it is to answer a “YES” or “NO” question WITH a “YES” or “NO”?
Mike……OK you have answered it as a “YES” you bleive Satan was right in what he said so do I and in that sense man is “LIKE” God, but does that really make all man and a women gods to you then> Yes or No, and if so, it has to be only in the sense of “Knowing” Good and Evil right and nothing else? Yes or Nopeace and lvoe to you and yours………………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2013,20:00) Mike, You are reading your doctrine into Jesus' words.
Believers had their glory with God before the World began as “those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters”, Romans 8:29
Kerwin, can you point out for me the part of Rom 8:29 where someone is telling us about the glory HE HAD in the presence of God before the world began?In 17:5, on the other hand, Jesus EXPLICITELY speaks about the glory that he himself HAD before the world began.
There is no way you can change the words of 17:5 to say, “the glory YOU'VE HAD PREDESTINED FOR ME SINCE before the world began”.
I know you WANT it to say that, but that is clearly NOT what it says. So the scripture you posted is not a rebuttal.
Nor can you scripturally prohibit the wording and understanding of 17:5, as translated in the NRSV.
So while you can have a different interpretation of those words, you cannot possibly tell me that it CAN'T be worded exactly like the NRSV translates it, or that it CAN'T be understood exactly like I, and the vast majority of Christians, understand it. Agreed?
So like I said, you have rebutted nothing. Now, please pay attention to the rest of the comparisons I'm listing for you. By the time I'm done, you will have to be hiding your head in the sand to not realize the truth of John 1.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 13 2013,08:46) Kerwin……..Mike Just can't seem to understand “ALL” created thing have there Glory before they are ever Made.
Show me that in scripture, Gene. If you can't, then don't make the claim, okay?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 13 2013,09:09) ……..but does that really make all man and a women gods to you then> Yes or No
I believe we are like God in more ways than just “knowing good from evil”. But “NO”, it doesn't make ALL men and women gods.Men HAVE been called gods in scripture. So have angels. The word “elohim” basically means “mighty one”. And yes, some angels are “mighty ones”. Some men have been “mighty ones”. And Jehovah is definitely a “mighty one”. Jesus and Satan are also “mighty ones”. (There is a reason Jehovah is called the Almighty God. And the Most High God. And the God of gods. These titles for Jehovah are in the scriptures for a reason, Gene. Don't ignore them.)
At any rate, the trick is not to confuse the CREATED “mighty ones” with the Almighty One who created them.
So is Jehovah LITERALLY the ONLY elohim in existence? Heavens no. The scriptures are LOADED with many elohim. But can He EMPHATICALLY be called the “only elohim”? Yes, because that kind of statement, while not being LITERAL, does place Him ABOVE the other elohim.
It would be like saying, The ONLY good book that exists is the Bible. It is an EMPHATICAL statement, designed to place the Bible AT THE TOP of all “good books”. But it is not a LITERAL statement, because there are other “good books” – many of them also about God.
Can you see the difference between LITERAL and EMPHATICAL?
Hey All,
I've started a thread called “A question for the non-preexisters”. Would you all please go there and answer the question?
Thanks in advance.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,13:12) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 11 2013,16:55) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) 1. Who does the scripture say prayed these things? Jesus? Or “the Holy Spirit speaking through Jesus”? The Holy Spirit and Jesus were as if one (think Elijah and john the Baptist).
So then the Holy Spirit OF God, who is also the Son OF God, and at the same time God HIMSELF, prayed to HIMSELF, and asked for glory from HIMSELF?2B, you are digging a hole for yourself.
So when Jesus left our world and sent another, he sent another version of himself?Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 13 2013,07:47) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 13 2013,07:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2013,04:36) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2013,16:15) No creature is good without God is a paraphrase of only God is good.
So then creatures WITH God CAN BE “good”, making the statement “only God is good” an EMPHATICAL statement instead of a LITERAL one – like I've been saying this whole time.Kerwin, do you go out of your way just to NOT agree with me? You know what I've been saying all along. And you know it is correct. Why are you making this molehill into a mountain?
Mike,I am making the case that each and every creature needs Jehovah to be good.
Mike,Typo corrected.
KQuote I am making the case that each and every creature needs Jehovah to be good that his also false ,think about it ,is this what scriptures says
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2013,11:17) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 13 2013,08:46) Kerwin……..Mike Just can't seem to understand “ALL” created thing have there Glory before they are ever Made.
Show me that in scripture, Gene. If you can't, then don't make the claim, okay?
Mike……..Does common sense mean any thing to you? There is nothing created by God or man that did not have it beginning rather for glory or no glory that did not start in the mind of it's creator, rather man or God.Saying show me a scripture is just another of your ploys to devert the truth of what I said. Your own admission even backs this up, you plainly used this scripture .
Geneis 3:22……… The LORD , GOD said the man has become as one of us “knowing good and evil”
That is speaking of the man Adam and therefore all mankind in a “general”. sense , because of the “knowledge of good and evil” which all humans have . So all men has become “as”or “like” GOD but none of that makes man a complete God either a “big” or “little” god . It just means we all have an attribute ( knowing good and evil) that the GOD of all creation has, but in what way does that make a man a “TRUE” GOD or a “TRUE little god ?
We are all made in the “image” of GOD but no human rather a mighty man or a judge, or a president or any ruler is a GOD of any kind, just because he or she has an “attribute” of God in him.
I could extend this but might get to long for you to Handel .
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 14 2013,09:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2013,11:17) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 13 2013,08:46) Kerwin……..Mike Just can't seem to understand “ALL” created thing have there Glory before they are ever Made.
Show me that in scripture, Gene. If you can't, then don't make the claim, okay?
Mike……..Does common sense mean any thing to you? There is nothing created by God or man that did not have it beginning rather for glory or no glory that did not start in the mind of it's creator, rather man or God.Saying show me a scripture is just another of your ploys to devert the truth of what I said. Your own admission even backs this up, you plainly used this scripture .
Geneis 3:22……… The LORD , GOD said the man has become as one of us knowing good and evil
That is speaking of the man Adam and therefore all mankind in a “general”. sense , because of the “knowledge of good and evil” which all humans have . So all men has become “as”or “like” GOD but none of that makes man a complete God either a “big” or “little” god . It just means we all have an attribute ( knowing good and evil) that the GOD of all creation has but in what way does that make a man a “TRUE” GOD or a “TRUE little god either.
We are all made in the “image” of GOD but no human rather a mighty man or a judge, or a president or any ruler is a GOD of any kind just because he or she has an “attribute” of God in him.
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Gso god his a man ,he says man as become as one of us ,right
Terricca ……..That is what you guys claim not me, I don't believe any man is a god and that includes Jesus too. This man god thing is what you people are saying not me. I think you got your wires crossed brother.
Peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 14 2013,09:46) Terricca ……..That is what you guys claim not me, I don't believe any man is a god and that includes Jesus too. This man god thing is what you people are saying not me. I think you got your wires crossed brother. Peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 14 2013,08:59) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 13 2013,07:47) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 13 2013,07:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2013,04:36) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2013,16:15) No creature is good without God is a paraphrase of only God is good.
So then creatures WITH God CAN BE “good”, making the statement “only God is good” an EMPHATICAL statement instead of a LITERAL one – like I've been saying this whole time.Kerwin, do you go out of your way just to NOT agree with me? You know what I've been saying all along. And you know it is correct. Why are you making this molehill into a mountain?
Mike,I am making the case that each and every creature needs Jehovah to be good.
Mike,Typo corrected.
KQuote I am making the case that each and every creature needs Jehovah to be good that his also false ,think about it ,is this what scriptures says
T,Yes, it is what scripture states.
If you not have the Spirit then all you have is the flesh. The fruit of the flesh is evil.
If you have the Spirit then you have God.
note: added some words to remove some ambiguity.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2013,06:16) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2013,20:00) Mike, You are reading your doctrine into Jesus' words.
Believers had their glory with God before the World began as “those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters”, Romans 8:29
Kerwin, can you point out for me the part of Rom 8:29 where someone is telling us about the glory HE HAD in the presence of God before the world began?In 17:5, on the other hand, Jesus EXPLICITELY speaks about the glory that he himself HAD before the world began.
There is no way you can change the words of 17:5 to say, “the glory YOU'VE HAD PREDESTINED FOR ME SINCE before the world began”.
I know you WANT it to say that, but that is clearly NOT what it says. So the scripture you posted is not a rebuttal.
Nor can you scripturally prohibit the wording and understanding of 17:5, as translated in the NRSV.
So while you can have a different interpretation of those words, you cannot possibly tell me that it CAN'T be worded exactly like the NRSV translates it, or that it CAN'T be understood exactly like I, and the vast majority of Christians, understand it. Agreed?
So like I said, you have rebutted nothing. Now, please pay attention to the rest of the comparisons I'm listing for you. By the time I'm done, you will have to be hiding your head in the sand to not realize the truth of John 1.
Mike,I have already pointed out that believers had glory with God before the world began.
Jeremiah 1:5
King James Version (KJV)5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
God knows a man before he is conceived.
1 Corinthians 2:7
King James Version (KJV)7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
God ordained the receiving of “our glory” before the World came to be.
Hebrews 2:10
King James Version (KJV)10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Many sons receive their glory that God had with him since before the World began.
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