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Quote (2besee @ Nov. 29 2012,13:11) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 29 2012,10:31) 2 b what is your view on ;
Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
Terraricca, this is Gods own wisdom, it is poetic and a lovely writing describing Gods wisdom, God's wisdom is a part of Him, it is no-one else's wisdom, but Gods, brought forth from eternity.God also put that wisdom on Jesus as prophesied, Isaiah 11:2,
'The SPIRIT OF YHVH will rest on him: the SPIRIT OF WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING, the SPIRIT of COUNSEL and MIGHT, the SPIRIT of KNOWLEDGE and of the fear of YHVH.'
As you can see, the spirit of wisdom is the spirit of YHVH.
2bhow could anything of God be created or bring forth first
or be a worker beside him at the same time he is ,???
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 30 2012,05:06) 2b how could anything of God be created or bring forth first
or be a worker beside him at the same time he is ,???
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
Proverbs chapter seven speaks about the harlot woman who lures people in with her smooth and seductive speech, and those who she lures in; she lures them in to death.Wisdom on the other hand (in the next chapter chapter eight) calls people also; and “she” calls them to life.
Here is an alternative view to wisdom which I found:
“The context clearly shows that the passage is referring to God's own eternal attribute of Wisdom:
Solomon is taking an impersonal attribute of God and personifying it, a common literary feature of Wisdom literature. The reason why Solomon personified Wisdom as a woman is because the Hebrew word for it, hokmah, is feminine in gender.
The text is obviously speaking figuratively on how Yahweh acquired Wisdom, i.e. Yahweh got it by begetting or birthing it in order to use it to create everything. We know that it is figurative since Yahweh doesn't literally give birth in labor pains.
The following texts make it clear that Wisdom was birthed for the purpose of being used by Yahweh to create:
- “Happy is the man who finds wisdom, and the man who gets understanding, for the gain from it is better than gain from silver and its profit better than gold. She is more precious than jewels, and nothing you desire can compare with her. Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to those who lay hold of her; those who hold her fast are called happy. The LORD BY WISDOM founded the earth; BY UNDERSTANDING he established the heavens; BY HIS KNOWLEDGE the deeps broke forth, and the clouds drop down the dew.” Proverbs 3:13-20
David, in the Psalms, wrote that God created everything that has been made in Wisdom:
- “He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved. You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains. At your rebuke they fled; at the sound of your thunder they took to flight. The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place that you appointed for them. You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth. You make springs gush forth in the valleys; they flow between the hills; they give drink to every beast of the field; the wild donkeys quench their thirst. Beside them the birds of the heavens dwell; they sing among the branches. From your lofty abode you water the mountains; the earth is satisfied with the fruit of your work. You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man's heart. The trees of the LORD are watered abundantl, the cedars of Lebanon that he planted. In them the birds build their nests; the stork has her home in the fir trees. The high mountains are for the wild goats; the rocks are a refuge for the rock badgers. He made the moon to mark the seasons; the sun knows its time for setting. You make darkness, and it is night, when all the beasts of the forest creep about. The young lions roar for their prey, seeking their food from God. When the sun rises, they steal away and lie down in their dens. Man goes out to his work and to his labor until the evening. O LORD, how manifold are your works! IN WISDOM HAVE YOU MADE THEM ALL; the earth is full of your creatures.” Psalm 104:1-24 ESV
The fact that Wisdom was used by God to create every created thing shows that Wisdom itself is not created since it existed before creation. This leads us to our next point.
It is important to note that not every act of begetting or creation necessarily implies that the thing created or begotten didn't exist prior to that moment. For instance, the verb qanah is used in reference to Eve giving birth to Cain:
- “Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, 'I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD.'” Genesis 4:1 RSV
It is obvious that Cain didn't come into existence the moment that Eve gave birth or “produced him” since he was already alive and existing in his mother's womb for at least nine months. This demonstrates that the verb qanah doesn't necessarily refer to creating someone or something from nothing, but can refer to something or someone that already existed and was then brought forth or birthed.
In light of the foregoing, the question then becomes from where did Yahweh beget Wisdom? Did he beget it by creating it out of nothing, ex nihilo, or did he beget it out of his own Being, out of himself? Proverbs itself provides a clue:
- “For the LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding;” Proverbs 2:6 RSV
The Wisdom which Yahweh gives is the knowledge and understanding that comes from his mouth. The reference is essentially saying that Yahweh produced Wisdom out of his own mouth, which shows that Wisdom wasn't created from nothing since it existed with(in) Yahweh. In other words, Yahweh always had Wisdom as an attribute which he then produced or brought forth in order to create and to give to others.
Basically, what this implies is that Proverbs is using figurative language to describe how Yahweh birthed his own eternal attribute of Wisdom from Himself in creating everything.
…This text isn't referring to Christ nor is it saying that Wisdom was created from nothing. It is simply a poetic description of how Yahweh used his own eternal attribute of Wisdom to create all things.”
Terraricca, wisdom is a part of God.
Are you saying that wisdom is not a part of God? Are you saying that God does not have wisdom?
If you and others are saying that in John 1:1. wisdom is Jesus, then are you saying that wisdom was 'a god'? really?
In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God…
not 'a god'.
Quote (2besee @ Nov. 30 2012,02:54) Terraricca, wisdom is a part of God. Are you saying that wisdom is not a part of God? Are you saying that God does not have wisdom?
If you and others are saying that in John 1:1. wisdom is Jesus, then are you saying that wisdom was 'a god'? really?
In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God…
not 'a god'.
2bQuote “The context clearly shows that the passage is referring to God's own eternal attribute of Wisdom: you did not answered my question;;how could anything of God be created or bring forth first
answer this and I will believe you
Terraricca,
'In the beginning of old', well God does not have a beginning. Wisdom did not either for God always had wisdom.
When God said 'let there be light' there was light, therefore light was brought forth, in both wisdom and word.
When you speak, you are bringing forth your word – 'figuratively giving birth to it if it is your first uttered word' and when you speak wisdom, you are bringing forth wisdom.
When it says that wisdom was the beginning of God's works, it is in creation. God always had wisdom with Him.
When it says that wisdom was a 'craftsman by God's side' wisdom was always there with God and was in John 1:1, wisdom and the word were with God and also they were God.
Does that make sense?
Terrarica, let me ask you something and please answer it with a yes or a no:
1) Are you your word?
2) Are you your wisdom?If you can't answer that with a yes or a no, just say so.
Quote (2besee @ Nov. 30 2012,03:34) Terraricca, 'In the beginning of old', well God does not have a beginning. Wisdom did not either for God always had wisdom.
When God said 'let there be light' there was light, therefore light was brought forth, in both wisdom and word.
When you speak, you are bringing forth your word – 'figuratively giving birth to it if it is your first uttered word' and when you speak wisdom, you are bringing forth wisdom.
When it says that wisdom was the beginning of God's works, it is in creation. God always had wisdom with Him.
When it says that wisdom was a 'craftsman by God's side' wisdom was always there with God and was in John 1:1, wisdom and the word were with God and also they were God.
Does that make sense?
2byou did not answer the question but in a way you did ;by saying THAT GOD AS NO BEGINNING AND NO PART OF HIS AS BEEN CREATED ;
so what it says in Prov ;8 ;22-31 is definetly not of God that it speaks right
YES AND NOW IF YOU LOOK AT Col 1;15 -19
can you see some connections
Quote (2besee @ Nov. 30 2012,04:05) Terraria, let me ask you something and please answer it with a yes or a no: 1) Are you your word?
2) Are you your wisdom?If you can't answer that with a yes or a no, just say so.
2b1) Are you your word? no
2) Are you your wisdom?nolet me put it this way ;if i grow apples i have apples but i am not my apples ,right
if i am sick i may have viruses,or bacteria but i am not the viruses or the bacteria,right
so i am a person with an ability to speak but all my words are not necessary mine i may quote notes of DESCARTS or PASCAL,or ORIGEN,or PLATO so am i those persons
no are there words me NObut i have say those words or endorsed them ,
but God does not endorse words from others he his unique and his words are to be applied but they are not him but from him big difference ,wen GOD gives he does not gives from his being but from what he can give to others power of the holy spirit
it is like the sun ,we do not receive a piece of the sun but his warm give a warm feeling right
Quote (2besee @ Nov. 29 2012,01:24) As we know, Angels appeared in the OT, and they called the Angel 'God' – as God's representative (spokesperson). They were God's representatives because God was speaking THROUGH them, just as God was speaking through Jesus too, but the difference is that Jesus was in the flesh.
We all know from the NT that Jesus spoke for God while he was flesh and living on earth, right? But as you have already pointed out in the case of Hagar, none of us really know if Jesus was ever the “angel of the LORD” that spoke in the OT as a spirit being. He could have been, but I don't know of a scripture that specifically says any particular “angel of the LORD” was Jesus.What I want to know is whether or not you acknowledge that Jesus is called a god in scripture?
Quote (2besee @ Nov. 29 2012,01:24) Of course she was not claiming that the Angel WAS God, and as Jesus said no-one has ever seen God (who lives in unapproachable light). Just as the Angel which appeared was called God by Hagar and others, it doesn't diminish the fact that there is ONLY one God, YHVH.
No-one has ever SEEN God at any time, they have seen His representatives (One being Jesus, His Son)
I agree 100% with the above quote. I applaud you for acknowledging that others in scripture were called “god”, even though they were not the only true God, YHWH. Most here close their eyes and cover their ears at the first hint of this scriptural truth.
However, that being said, it seems to me that your words above argue AGAINST your words below:
Quote (2besee @ Nov. 28 2012,13:54) “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life —
the life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us —The light in first John is speaking of the Father, as in John 1 – the light.
1 John 1 speaks about someone they have seen with their own eyes, and touched with their own hands. Yet, as you pointed out above, no man has ever seen the Father, right?
Also, consider that John calls this person “the Word of life” in 1 John 1. Could this be the same person he calls “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13, and “the Word” in John 1:1, 14? (Notice that in 1 John 1, John says this Word of life was with the Father from the beginning – which to me sounds a lot like him saying the Word in John 1 was with God in the beginning. And don't forget that this “Word of life” cannot possibly BE God, for no man has seen God.)
Quote (2besee @ Nov. 28 2012,13:54) Gen.1
**“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; **and the Spirit of God** was moving over the face of the waters.
Couple of things……………….1. The word usually translated as “Spirit” of God in Gen 1:2 is the Hebrew word “ruwach”, which means “breath, wind, spirit”.
Compare the NRSV translation:
the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
The NEB translation has “mighty wind”. And the NETNotes scholars (who use “Spirit of God” in their translation), say: If one reads “mighty wind” (cf. NEB) then the verse describes how the powerful wind begins to blow in preparation for the creative act described in vv. 9-10. (God also used a wind to drive back the flood waters in Noah’s day. See Gen 8:1.) The word “wind”, used in Gen 8:1, is the same Hebrew word “ruwach”.
(This has just been for your own information and knowledge. I'm not making an argument either FOR “Spirit of God”, or AGAINST it. I just wanted you to know that, as is the case in most scriptures, there are options we must weigh.)
2. Assuming you are correct, and the “Word” in John 1:1 is God's Holy Spirit, how do you account for the teaching in John 1:14? Did God's Holy Spirit become flesh and dwell on earth among mankind?
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 29 2012,10:06) Quote (2besee @ Nov. 29 2012,13:11)
Terraricca, this is Gods own wisdom, it is poetic and a lovely writing describing Gods wisdom, God's wisdom is a part of Him, it is no-one else's wisdom, but Gods, brought forth from eternity.
2bhow could anything of God be created or bring forth first
or be a worker beside him at the same time he is ,???
I think Pierre has asked some valid and important questions.The “wisdom” in Prov 8 is said to have been “created” and “given birth”. It is said to be “the first of God's works”. It is said to have been a “craftsman at God's side”. It is said to have “rejoiced in God's presence”.
How is God a craftsman at God's side? How does God create Himself as the first of His works? How does God rejoice in His own presence?
Quote (2besee @ Nov. 30 2012,07:47) Wisdom on the other hand (in the next chapter chapter eight)
calls people also; and “she” calls them to life.
Here is an alternative view to wisdom which I found:“The context clearly shows that the passage is referring to God's own eternal attribute of Wisdom:
…The LORD BY WISDOM founded the earth; BY UNDERSTANDING
he established the heavens; BY HIS KNOWLEDGE the deeps broke forth,
and the clouds drop down the dew.” Proverbs 3:13-20
Hi 2Besee, You are correct!“Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew,
as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:” (Deut 32:1-2)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2012,12:01) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 29 2012,10:06) Quote (2besee @ Nov. 29 2012,13:11)
Terraricca, this is Gods own wisdom, it is poetic and a lovely writing describing Gods wisdom, God's wisdom is a part of Him, it is no-one else's wisdom, but Gods, brought forth from eternity.
2bhow could anything of God be created or bring forth first
or be a worker beside him at the same time he is ,???
I think Pierre has asked some valid and important questions.The “wisdom” in Prov 8 is said to have been “created” and “given birth”. It is said to be “the first of God's works”. It is said to have been a “craftsman at God's side”. It is said to have “rejoiced in God's presence”.
How is God a craftsman at God's side? How does God create Himself as the first of His works? How does God rejoice in His own presence?
Was there anything before God? NO.
Was not the angels created by his wisdom? YES.
Was God ever there without wisdom? NO.
Was there God ,but no wisdom? NO.
For there was not a time when God had no wisdom,and no word.I AM THAT I AM meaning I CAN BE, WHAT I WILL BE.
For God is a spirit; He can be a flaming fire if he so wishes.
He can split himself in many forms if he wants to.
He can bring forth his own word if he wants to.
He can give his own word a body if he wants to,of which he did.Gods word is a living word,God has given him a body.
His own word with a body.
God was never alone;his word has always been with him.
Go saw all his creation before he even created them,so how can God have been alone in the beginning?Can God appear as a whole army if he wants to? yes.
Can God appear as two persons if he wants to? YES.
Can God make the Holy spirit look like a dove? YES HE CAN AND HE DID.Can God make the Holy spirit look like lightning? YES HE CAN.
So where are his boundaries? Can we put any boundaries to God?
Is there any god beside God? NO THERE IS NO GOD.
He created all by himself through his own word.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 30 2012,09:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2012,12:01) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 29 2012,10:06) Quote (2besee @ Nov. 29 2012,13:11)
Terraricca, this is Gods own wisdom, it is poetic and a lovely writing describing Gods wisdom, God's wisdom is a part of Him, it is no-one else's wisdom, but Gods, brought forth from eternity.
2bhow could anything of God be created or bring forth first
or be a worker beside him at the same time he is ,???
I think Pierre has asked some valid and important questions.The “wisdom” in Prov 8 is said to have been “created” and “given birth”. It is said to be “the first of God's works”. It is said to have been a “craftsman at God's side”. It is said to have “rejoiced in God's presence”.
How is God a craftsman at God's side? How does God create Himself as the first of His works? How does God rejoice in His own presence?
Was there anything before God? NO.
Was not the angels created by his wisdom? YES.
Was God ever there without wisdom? NO.
Was there God ,but no wisdom? NO.
For there was not a time when God had no wisdom,and no word.I AM THAT I AM meaning I CAN BE, WHAT I WILL BE.
For God is a spirit; He can be a flaming fire if he so wishes.
He can split himself in many forms if he wants to.
He can bring forth his own word if he wants to.
He can give his own word a body if he wants to,of which he did.Gods word is a living word,God has given him a body.
His own word with a body.
God was never alone;his word has always been with him.
Go saw all his creation before he even created them,so how can God have been alone in the beginning?Can God appear as a whole army if he wants to? yes.
Can God appear as two persons if he wants to? YES.
Can God make the Holy spirit look like a dove? YES HE CAN AND HE DID.Can God make the Holy spirit look like lightning? YES HE CAN.
So where are his boundaries? Can we put any boundaries to God?
Is there any god beside God? NO THERE IS NO GOD.
He created all by himself through his own word.wakeup.
this does not answer the questionsQuote (terraricca @ Nov. 30 2012,12:51) so what it says in Prov ;8 ;22-31 is definetly not of God that it speaks right YES
Terraricca of COURSE it is of God. Was there a time when our great God did not have his own wisdom that you can name? I cannot.There is nothing in the bible which says that there was a time when God did not have wisdom?
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 30 2012,13:03) Quote (2besee @ Nov. 30 2012,04:05) Terraria, let me ask you something and please answer it with a yes or a no: 1) Are you your word?
2) Are you your wisdom?If you can't answer that with a yes or a no, just say so.
2b1) Are you your word? no
2) Are you your wisdom?nolet me put it this way ;if i grow apples i have apples but i am not my apples ,right
if i am sick i may have viruses,or bacteria but i am not the viruses or the bacteria,right
so i am a person with an ability to speak but all my words are not necessary mine i may quote notes of DESCARTS or PASCAL,or ORIGEN,or PLATO so am i those persons
no are there words me NObut i have say those words or endorsed them ,
but God does not endorse words from others he his unique and his words are to be applied but they are not him but from him big difference ,wen GOD gives he does not gives from his being but from what he can give to others power of the holy spirit
it is like the sun ,we do not receive a piece of the sun but his warm give a warm feeling right
Hi Terraricca,Firstly, the question was NOT about you quoting others words, it was about YOUR words…Are you 'your words'?
You cannot answer 'Yes – I am my words' because you are not ONLY your words, you are much more than just words.
And you cannot answer 'No – I am not my words' because – then you are saying that the words that you speak are not yours when they are,so the answer has to be –
You are your words and you are your wisdom,
They are a part of who you are.
So a 'Yes' and a 'No' is the answer.Therefore why it says in John 1:1 that the word was with God AND the word WAS God.
The Father's words are what Jesus spoke.
The Father is the light which came into the world THROUGH Jesus.“The works that I do are not my own but the Father who dwells in me”
—————-
And by you claiming that the word (In John 1:1) was 'a god'
and then claiming that wisdom was 'the word' too,
then you are claiming that God's own word/wisdom is a 'god' – another god (small 'g').Or if you were a binitarian or a trinitarian then you are claiming that the word/wisdom is ANOTHER God – so there are two Gods.
Scriptures do not tell us that.
Can you please show me a verse that says that there are two GODS who together created.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2012,13:37) What I want to know is whether or not you acknowledge that Jesus is called a god in scripture?
Yes Jesus is called a God in Scripture in a few places I have seen, but it has nothing to do with John 1:1.Quote 1 John 1 speaks about someone they have seen with their own eyes, and touched with their own hands. Yet, as you pointed out above, no man has ever seen the Father, right? Also, consider that John calls this person “the Word of life” in 1 John 1. Could this be the same person he calls “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13, and “the Word” in John 1:1, 14? (Notice that in 1 John 1, John says this Word of life was with the Father from the beginning – which to me sounds a lot like him saying the Word in John 1 was with God in the beginning. And don't forget that this “Word of life” cannot possibly BE God, for no man has seen God.)
Yes, this is speaking about Jesus who was seen in the flesh, of course. But the light is the Father. The light is mentioned in both John 1:1 and in 1st John 1. and in other places.
So though God was in heaven, his Spirit – the eternal spirit – was here as the Father – in the Son Jesus.
You have to be careful sometimes with 'who is who' in 'who' it is speaking about, for example in many places Jesus is speaking BUT he is speaking the words of the Father, as if the Father….Quote Compare the NRSV translation: the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
What is the “NRSV”? Is it the JW translation?
Yes i do know about the word “ruwach”.
Quote 2. Assuming you are correct, and the “Word” in John 1:1 is God's Holy Spirit, how do you account for the teaching in John 1:14? Did God's Holy Spirit become flesh and dwell on earth among mankind? I never actually said that the word was God's Holy Spirit, 'the word' is God's spoken word, made flesh. I am still studying. So give me time
Quote I think Pierre has asked some valid and important questions. The “wisdom” in Prov 8 is said to have been “created” and “given birth”. It is said to be “the first of God's works”. It is said to have been a “craftsman at God's side”. It is said to have “rejoiced in God's presence”.
How is God a craftsman at God's side? How does God create Himself as the first of His works? How does God rejoice in His own presence?
Mike, please read what I quoted on page 11 (In blue).
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 30 2012,14:10) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 30 2012,09:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2012,12:01) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 29 2012,10:06) Quote (2besee @ Nov. 29 2012,13:11)
Terraricca, this is Gods own wisdom, it is poetic and a lovely writing describing Gods wisdom, God's wisdom is a part of Him, it is no-one else's wisdom, but Gods, brought forth from eternity.
2bhow could anything of God be created or bring forth first
or be a worker beside him at the same time he is ,???
I think Pierre has asked some valid and important questions.The “wisdom” in Prov 8 is said to have been “created” and “given birth”. It is said to be “the first of God's works”. It is said to have been a “craftsman at God's side”. It is said to have “rejoiced in God's presence”.
How is God a craftsman at God's side? How does God create Himself as the first of His works? How does God rejoice in His own presence?
Was there anything before God? NO.
Was not the angels created by his wisdom? YES.
Was God ever there without wisdom? NO.
Was there God ,but no wisdom? NO.
For there was not a time when God had no wisdom,and no word.I AM THAT I AM meaning I CAN BE, WHAT I WILL BE.
For God is a spirit; He can be a flaming fire if he so wishes.
He can split himself in many forms if he wants to.
He can bring forth his own word if he wants to.
He can give his own word a body if he wants to,of which he did.Gods word is a living word,God has given him a body.
His own word with a body.
God was never alone;his word has always been with him.
Go saw all his creation before he even created them,so how can God have been alone in the beginning?Can God appear as a whole army if he wants to? yes.
Can God appear as two persons if he wants to? YES.
Can God make the Holy spirit look like a dove? YES HE CAN AND HE DID.Can God make the Holy spirit look like lightning? YES HE CAN.
So where are his boundaries? Can we put any boundaries to God?
Is there any god beside God? NO THERE IS NO GOD.
He created all by himself through his own word.wakeup.
this does not answer the questions
Terra.
And your question was?wakeup.
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