In the Beginning

[kerwin]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 30 2013,11:19)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 30 2013,16:53) Mike, There is a war going on and poison food, except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, does not seem  to be an item Jehovah had in the garden. Who do you think modifies genetics in order to cause the world's ills? Kerwin, I love the way that your mind thinks things over I look forward to reading your posts, but realize that you are busy as you said.

2beesee,

Thank you.

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2013,12:59)

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 28 2013,17:10) Yes can we please all get back on topic, Thank you. Okie-dokey.   John 1:1 NWT In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. First, I will point out that the NWT is far from being the ONLY translation that renders 1:1 as “a god”.  There are hundreds of others ones.  More importantly, it was rendered as “a god” in the Coptic language.  (Coptic is the first language into which the NT was translated from Greek – that actually uses an indefinite article like we do in English.  In other words, the first chance John 1:1c ever had of being rendered as “a god”, it was.) As scriptural support for my understanding, I offer Hebrews 1:8, But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever………..” This is only one of many scriptures where Jesus is called a god. And I offer Revelation 19, 11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire……… 13 ……….his name is the Word of God. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword……….. The rider is, without a doubt, Jesus.  We know this from what he says about himself in Rev 2 and 3.  And from what John says about him in Rev 1.  For “faithful and true”, see 3:14.  For “eyes of blazing fire”, see 1:14 and 2:18.  For the “sharp sword”, see 1:16 and 2:12.  (There are, of course, more comparisons I could list, but these should suffice for most of us.) So, Jesus is a god, according to scriptures.  And Jesus is named “the Word”, according to scriptures. I also offer John 17:5 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. From this scripture, we learn that Jesus not only existed before the world began (“in the beginning”), but that he was WITH God back then. So “Jesus” fits every criteria in John 1:1.   1.  He was with God in the beginning.   2.  He is called “the Word”.   3.  And he is “a god”, according to scripture. Can anyone scripturally refute any of the three points I just wrote? Now, on the flip side, you guys offer me this: 1.  It is “sensible” for God Almighty Himself to be WITH God Almighty Himself. 2.  The translation of “the Word was God” just feels better to me. Have I missed any of the “scriptural support” you guys have offered for YOUR understanding?  Or do the two things I listed above sum it up?

Hi Mike,
Yes, here is a summary of some of my points, I will save the Rev 19 part for another post. I am so sorry if it is repetitive or a bit jumbled, I am rushed right now…

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I believe what it says – that the word was with God and the word was God – the word being God's own word, spoken through the Holy Spirit.

To say that there is only one God which is YHVH and to then apply that bible rule to the verse in John 1:1 is correct.

In beginning
was
the  Logos, –  λόγος, ου, ὁ, a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy.
and the Logos
was with God,
and God was
the Logos.

http://biblos.com/john/1-1.htm

———–

this – houtos, οὗτος, αὕτη, τοῦτο, this, he, she, it,
was in the beginning with God

http://biblos.com/john/1-2.htm

All things
through
this – (houtos)
came into being,
and without
this
came into being
not even one [thing] which has come into being.

In
this –(houtos)
life was,
and the life was the light of men.

And
the light
in the darkness shines,
and the darkness it not overcome.

http://biblos.com/john/1-3.htm
http://biblos.com/john/1-4.htm
http://biblos.com/john/1-5.htm

'God is light and in him is no darkness at all.'

————-

The Logos was a part of God just as your Word is a part of you.

God didn't come into the world in totality, how could he? He is in UNAPPROACHABLE LIGHT, he did however come here through His Spirit.

That Spirit is no-one else's Spirit, it is God's Spirit.

God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Also called the Son…

“No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

————–

God is one. Not two. This is what Scriptures say, this is what Jesus said,  and even the devils know this and shudder.

So what lies would be the most prevalent, but that there was more than one God.

By claiming that the Logos was a god, you are making God two gods.

————–

The one and only God YHVH was coming into the world, as he is the light which John spoke about, the light was coming into the world, but the only way that he could do that was through his own Holy Spirit.

That is why Jesus said that God was IN HIM and yet also IN HEAVEN!

That is also why Jesus is HERE but also IN HEAVEN through the eternal spirit.

———–

“I AM THE LORD AND THERE IS NO OTHER,
BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD;
I gird you, though you do not know me,
THAT MEN MAY KNOW,
FROM THE RISING OF THE SUN FROM THE WEST,
THAT THERE IS NONE BESIDES ME;
I AM THE LORD, AND THERE IS NO OTHER.”
I FORM THE LIGHT AND CREATE DARKNESS,
I MAKE WEAL AND CREATE WOE,
I AM THE LORD, WHO DO ALL THESE THINGS.”

“I MADE THE EARTH,
AND CREATED MAN UPON IT;
IT WAS MY HANDS THAT STRETCHED OUT THE HEAVENS,
AND I COMMANDED ALL THEIR HOST.”

“`GOD IS WITH YOU ONLY, AND THERE IS NO OTHER,
NO GOD BESIDES HIM”

“DECLARE AND PRESENT YOUR CASE;
LET THE COUNSEL TOGETHER!
WHO TOLD THIS LONG AGO?
WHO DECLARED IT OF OLD?
WAS IT NOT I, THE LORD?
AND THERE IS NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME,
A RIGHTEOUS GOD AND A SAVIOR;
THERE IS NONE BESIDES ME.
“TURN TO ME AND BE SAVE,
ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH!
FOR I AM GOD, AND THERE IS NO OTHER.”

This shows you that John 1:1 means exactly what it says.

Now, check this:

We can see from the above chapter that there is only one God involved in creation.

So what then is the word b
ut God's own word from his mouth.

Want proof?

Here it is: Isaiah 55:10-11 as a starter:

“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
and return not thither but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
so shall my word be that goes forth FROM MY MOUTH;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.”

————-

The Light

In 1st John, 1-10, it starts off with a similar kind of opening to John 1 – it is speaking about the light being God (the Father) and remember that the light came into the world:

This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.”

“If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;
but if we walk in the light, as he (God) is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

'our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.'

'God is light and in him is no darkness at all.'

' if we walk in the light, as he (God the Father) is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.'

The light is God Almighty. The light is the Father of Jesus.

Go back to John 1. Who there is the light?

The light  in 1st John is the Father. The light (The Father) came into the world in Spirit, and walked with man. God Almighty no-one has ever seen, he lives in unapproachable light. He could not and did not come down in totality, but he came down through the the eternal Spirit. The eternal Spirit came into the World.

1st Tim 3:16

'God was revealed in the flesh……
In Jesus Christ who was the son of God.
Jesus became the son of God when he was conceived through the power of above, and also when the spirit came upon him at baptism, and then when he was begotten from the dead.

Go back to John 1…
'The Life' mentioned is also 'The Light' (same thing)

'In him (God the Father) was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.'

'The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made through him (God's eternal Spirit), yet the world knew him not.'

See 1st John 5-7 again – please.

'and the world was made through him, God is that light.

Jesus also calls himself the light:

“I am the light of the world. The one who follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

“As long as you have the light, believe in the light, so that you may become children of light.” After Jesus had said this, he went away and hid from them.”

He (God's eternal spirit) was in the world, and the world was made through him.

But the world knew him not.

Jesus also says

'You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can't be hidden.'

and,

'For once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light'

————-

The Eternal Spirit

The spirit and the God's spoken word work together, this is seen in creation (Genesis 1 and then later the same word and the same spirit was in the man Jesus (the word became flesh).

The eternal spirit of God is what exists and has done eternally, it is the same spirit which was in Jesus and is in the world today.

In John 3:34, it is said,

'For HE WHOM GOD HAS SENT UTTERS THE WORDS OF GOD, for it is not by measure that he gives THE SPIRIT.'

And then we have Hebrews 9:14,

'How much more shall the blood of Christ, who THROUGH THE ETERNAL SPIRIT offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.'

What was with God but the eternal Spirit, and that eternal Spirit WAS God – just as God's WORDS which Jesus spoke were God – they were no-one else's words.

1Cor 2:10-16,

“God has revealed to us THROUGH THE SPIRIT. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.
And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.

The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
“For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.”

The above verse explains to you how the Spirit of God is a part of God and also IS God.

—————–

That it is the one and the same spirit:

'Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit;
and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;
and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one.

To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body — Jews or Greeks, slaves or free — and all were made to drink of one Spirit.'

It is the one and the same spirit of the one and the same God.

————–

John 14:10,

“Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but THE FATHER WHO DWELLS IN ME does his works.”

The Father was in Heaven – but The Father was also in Jesus.
How could that be, but through the Spirit.

It is just as your spirit is a part of you and IS you and your words are a part of you and ARE you.

Are your words my words or my words your words? Only if we have agreement and share in the same spirit

It is the eternal spirit which is 'with God' and 'IS God' which is eternal and does God's works.

This is what Jesus said also “The Father who dwells 'in me' does his works.”

Jesus said “It is the Spirit which gives life – these words which I speak to you, they are SPIRIT and they are life”.

“So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it sh
all accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing I SEND IT TO DO.”

Jesus said the words he speaks are spirit and they are life, so the word which was WITH God and WAS God is spirit and is life.

It is the 'eternal spirit'.
And God is Spirit and they that worship Him will worship Him in spirit and in truth.

When Jesus speaks about 'oneness' he speaks about the oneness of love which he shares with all of God's children – born not of the will of man nor of the will of flesh, but of God are begotten – as Jesus was and is, and so shall they be.

—————-

All that I am trying to say is that there is one true God and John 1:1 is not speaking about two Gods but the one true God.

This is a critical text and one which should be treated respectfully and rightly.

Are you 'your words'?

You cannot answer 'Yes – I am my words' because you are not ONLY your words, you are much more than just words.
And you cannot answer 'No – I am not my words' because – then you are saying that the words that you speak are not yours when they are,

so the answer has to be –

You are your words and you are your wisdom,
They are a part of who you are.
So a 'Yes' and a 'No' is the answer.

Therefore why it says in John 1:1 that the word was with God AND the word WAS God.

The Father's words are what Jesus spoke.
The Father is the light which came into the world THROUGH Jesus.

“The works that I do are not my own but the Father who dwells in me”

The Spirit which was in Him was before ALL.

Tell me, was Jesus a man of flesh existing before the foundation of the world? Where?

Jesus the man came into existence at conception. The Spirit which was in Him existed before then.

Answer me this: Where is Jesus now?

Is he in heaven or is he on earth?

If he is in heaven then how come he said that He would be Here till the end?

How come he said that he would ask the Father and that the Father would send the Holy Spirit?

How could Jesus have then said “I will come to you”

Check the Bible.

————–

I showed you Hebrews 1.

Here is the original Greek wording quoted from Biblos.com (my additions in brackets)

'In many parts and in many ways of old, God, having spoken to the fathers, in the prophets; in last the days these, he spoke to us in Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the ages (*aionos), who being radiance of the glory, and exact expression of the substance of him, upholding moreover all things by the word of the power of him, purification of sins having made, sat down on right hand of the Majesty on high. by so much better having become than the angels, as much as more excellent beyond them, he has inherited a name. to which indeed said he ever of the angels, Son of me are you; I today have begotten you? and again, I will be to him for Father, and he will be to me for Son? When moreover again he brings in the first-born, into the world, he says, And let worship him, all angels of God. And as to indeed the angels he says, Who makes the angels of him winds, and the ministers of him, of fire a flame; unto however the Son, the throne of you, O God, to the ages (*aionos) of the ages (*aionos), and the scepter of righteousness the scepter of the kingdom of you. You did love righteousness and did hate lawlessness; because of this, anointed you God, the God of you, with the oil of exultation, above the companions of you. (men)

*aionos
aión: a space of time, an age
Definition: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

(Daniel chapter 7).

continuing on with Hebrews:

'………And You in beginning, Lord, the earth did found, and works of the hands of you, are the heavens (The world was created through the one God YHVH, and so the author of Hebrews would of had that in mind, so we know that this talking about God who alone created the world).
They will perish; you (Jesus) however remain; and all as a garment will grow old; and as a robe you will roll up them, like a garment also they will be changed; you however the same are, and the years of you will not end. to which moreover of the angels said he ever, Sit at right hand of me, until anyhow I might place the enemies of you, a footstool for the feet of you? Not all are they ministering spirits, for service being sent forth, on account of those being about to inherit salvation?'

Jesus was not an Angel but a Man, and the Word in him was definitely not an Angel or a created being, but the eternal spirit.

—————–

Continued….

“There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse,
and a branch shall grow out of his roots.
And the SPIRIT OF THE LORD SHALL REST UPON HIM,
THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM AND UNDERSTANDING,
THE SPIRIT OF COUNSEL AND MIGHT,
THE SPIRIT OF KNOWLEDGE AND THE FEAR OF THE LORD.
And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD.” Isaiah 11:1-3

This shows you that Jesus was a man though born of the Holy Spirit as he had no earthly Father, and that the spirit of God would be upon Him. The spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of God.

“For AS THE RAIN COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN,
and return not thither but WATER THE EARTH,
MAKING IT BRING FORTH AND SPROUT,
GIVING SEED TO THE SOWER AND BREAD TO THE EATER,
so shall MY WORD BE THAT GOES FORTH FROM MY MOUTH;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and prosper in the thing for WHICH I SENT IT TO DO” Isaiah 55:10-11

“For I have come down FROM HEAVEN, not to do my own will, but the will of HIM WHO SENT ME.” John 6:38

“I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever;
and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” John 6:51

Speaks for itself.

Daniel 7:9-14

[9] 'As I looked,
thrones were placed
and one that was ancient of days took his seat;
his raiment was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames,
its wheels were burning fire.
A stream of fire issued
and came forth from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.

[13] I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
And to him was given dominion
and glory and kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.'

Rev 5:1-14

And I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals;

and I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice,
“Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?”
And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it,
and I wept much that no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to into into it.
Then one of the elders said to me,”Weep not; lo, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered,
so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”

—————–

'Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, AND THEY SH
ALL CALL HIS NAME EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US.

His name was Jesus and in that name of Jesus we are saved.

—————–

'It is the SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE, THE FLESH IS OF NO AVAIL, THE WORDS THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU THEY ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE.' John 6:63

“I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will BUT THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME.” John 5:30

'For HE WHOM GOD HAS SENT UTTERS THE WORDS OF GOD, for it is not by measure that he gives THE SPIRIT.' John 3:34

“Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me?
The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority;
but THE FATHER WHO DWELLS IN ME does his works.” John 14:10

“It is the Spirit which gives life – these words which I speak to you, they are SPIRIT and they are life.”

“The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him,
and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
“For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.” 1Cor 2:10-16

'How much more shall the blood of Christ, who THROUGH THE ETERNAL SPIRIT offered himself without blemish to God,
purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.' Hebrews 9:14

—————-

The spirit which was in him was before all and eternal and that was the Spirit of GOD.

“IN THE BEGINNING was the Word, and the Word was with God, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. This was in the beginning with God. ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH THE SAME AND WITHOUT SAME WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE.
In the same was life, and the life was the LIGHT OF MEN.
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.”

Gen.1
“IN THE BEGINNING God created the heavens and the earth.
The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD was moving over the face of the waters. AND GOD SAID, 'LET THERE BE LIGHT'; AND THERE WAS LIGHT.”

GOD IS THE LIFE AND GOD IS THE LIGHT.

“This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that GOD IS LIGHT AND IN HIM IS NO DARKNESS AT ALL.”

“If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;
BUT IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT AS HE (God) IS IN THE LIGHT, we have fellowship with one another, AND THE BLOOD OF JESUS HIS SON cleanses us from all sin.

'For HE WHOM GOD HAS SENT UTTERS THE WORDS OF GOD, for it is not by measure that he gives THE SPIRIT.'

THE ETERNAL SPIRIT OF GOD CAME INTO THE WORLD.

'How much more shall the blood of Christ, who THROUGH THE ETERNAL SPIRIT offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.'

————-

There is only one God. We are to believe in him and we are to serve him and love him with all of our heart, as the commandment says.

The Holy Spirit came here and was in the anointed man Jesus. He was given the name Jesus and it is in his (Jesus') name that we are saved.

Simple as that.

There are not two Gods nor are there three Gods making up one God. Nor are there little god and big gods.

There is only one God and that one God has a Son.
Everything is through the eternal Holy Spirit of God.

————

Jesus said that all sins will be forgiven, and that if you speak a word against the son of man it can be forgiven, but, if you speak a word against the Holy Spirit it will not be forgiven neither in this life or in the one to come.

And in Genesis 1:1 it says that in the beginning God created the earth, and that the SPIRIT OF GOD was hovering over the face of the waters and GOD SAID let there be… and it was so,

So we have seen how the scriptures that tell us that GOD ALONE created the world, and that NO OTHER GOD was with Him – it was HE ALONE

And we know from scriptures that Paul explains to us that there are two parts to a man; the mind and also the Spirit; and that the Spirit searches our mind; and so it is with God.

We know that it was prophesied of Jesus that 'a shoot would come out of the stock of Jessie' (Isaiah 11:2) and that the spirit of God would be upon him, and that this was so.

So this man Jesus, born of the root of David, from the tribe of Judah, (Rev 5:5), though born of a virgin, would have the Spirit – the eternal Spirit (Hebrews 9:14) on him, and this was so.

The world was created through Him because the Spirit of God was in him, and it was the Fathers eternal spirit in him who did the works.

When people add to scripture to 'force' their own doctrines then they are separating God's word and God's spirit, and this should not be.

What it says in John 1:1 is true
Why would the writer of John change that fact when he was the one who Jesus loved.

————

Sorry about the length!

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2013,12:59)

And I offer Revelation 19, 11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire……… 13 ……….his name is the Word of God. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword……….. The rider is, without a doubt, Jesus.  We know this from what he says about himself in Rev 2 and 3.  And from what John says about him in Rev 1.  For “faithful and true”, see 3:14.  For “eyes of blazing fire”, see 1:14 and 2:18.  For the “sharp sword”, see 1:16 and 2:12.  (There are, of course, more comparisons I could list, but these should suffice for most of us.)

Hi Mike, here is my ideas on revelation 19…. in rgeards to the rider on the white horse.

Rev 19:11-16

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.
His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed which no one knows but himself.
He is clad in a robe (Jesus' Body) dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.
And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, followed him on white horses.
From his mouth (Jesus) issues a sharp sword with which to smite the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords.

First we see in Rev 19 Jesus is the lamb, He is NAMED in verse 10 as Jesus, but then chapters 11-16 say that the rider on the white horse “has a name inscribed which no one else knows but he himself' though he is called The Word of God.

If no-one else knows his name, does that mean God does not know his name? No! Because 'The Word' is of God and is God. (John 1:1).

So we have Jesus the man (who was slain as the lamb of God), and then we have the word (who is the spirit of God and also is God).

'He (the word) is called faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. He is clad in a robe dipped in blood (Possible, the robe dipped in blood was the flesh body, Jesus, which he, the spirit, was 'dressed in'…. 'A body you have prepared for me' ….). He smites the nations with a sharp sword of his mouth (The Word). He will rule them with a rod of iron. He is the King of Kings and the Lord of lords.  

So we see in Rev 19 the words 'the faithful and true witness' which is also seen in Rev 3:14

“And to the angel of the church in La-odice'a write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.“

The beginning of God's creation….

This is not saying that The Word was ever created, it is saying that the world was created through him.

'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.'

The first thing that happened was God's Spirit moved over the waters; and then God spoke.

————————

'He smites the nations with a sharp sword from his mouth (His Words)'

Revelations 2:16,

'Repent then. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth.  He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

He will war against them with the word of his mouth, he who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches.

——————

'He will rule them with a rod of iron'

Rev 2:27:

'He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations,  and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father;  and I will give him the morning star.  He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

The 'conquerers' are also given power to rule over the nations with a rod of iron, as Jesus also conquered and was given the power to rule.

—————–

'He is the King of Kings and the Lord of lords.'

Rev 17:14,

'They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.'

1Tim 6:14-16,

'I charge you to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ; and this will be made manifest at the proper time……………. by the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,  who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.'

This is the Lord God Almighty; the Father.

Jesus the lamb is called the Lord of lords and the King of kings, and God Almighty is also called the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

This is answered with the following verse:

'That they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.'

[2besee]

You are welcome Kerwin.

—————

Mike, I cannot post for a while now, back in a week or so, okay.

God bless.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2013,05:59)

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 28 2013,17:10) Yes can we please all get back on topic, Thank you. Okie-dokey.   John 1:1 NWT In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. First, I will point out that the NWT is far from being the ONLY translation that renders 1:1 as “a god”.  There are hundreds of others ones.  More importantly, it was rendered as “a god” in the Coptic language.  (Coptic is the first language into which the NT was translated from Greek – that actually uses an indefinite article like we do in English.  In other words, the first chance John 1:1c ever had of being rendered as “a god”, it was.) As scriptural support for my understanding, I offer Hebrews 1:8, But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever………..” This is only one of many scriptures where Jesus is called a god. And I offer Revelation 19, 11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire……… 13 ……….his name is the Word of God. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword……….. The rider is, without a doubt, Jesus.  We know this from what he says about himself in Rev 2 and 3.  And from what John says about him in Rev 1.  For “faithful and true”, see 3:14.  For “eyes of blazing fire”, see 1:14 and 2:18.  For the “sharp sword”, see 1:16 and 2:12.  (There are, of course, more comparisons I could list, but these should suffice for most of us.) So, Jesus is a god, according to scriptures.  And Jesus is named “the Word”, according to scriptures. I also offer John 17:5 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. From this scripture, we learn that Jesus not only existed before the world began (“in the beginning”), but that he was WITH God back then. So “Jesus” fits every criteria in John 1:1.   1.  He was with God in the beginning.   2.  He is called “the Word”.   3.  And he is “a god”, according to scripture. Can anyone scripturally refute any of the three points I just wrote? Now, on the flip side, you guys offer me this: 1.  It is “sensible” for God Almighty Himself to be WITH God Almighty Himself. 2.  The translation of “the Word was God” just feels better to me. Have I missed any of the “scriptural support” you guys have offered for YOUR understanding?  Or do the two things I listed above sum it up?

Mike,

Quote

First, I will point out that the NWT is far from being the ONLY translation that renders 1:1 as “a god”.  There are hundreds of others ones.  More importantly, it was rendered as “a god” in the Coptic language.  (Coptic is the first language into which the NT was translated from Greek – that actually uses an indefinite article like we do in English.  In other words, the first chance John 1:1c ever had of being rendered as “a god”, it was.)

Coptic was a new written language that was just developed by mixing Greek letter with the letters of the prier Egyptian language.  The dates given by Wikipedia is the 2nd Century to the 17th though it is still used in the Coptic Orthodox Sect.  There is more than one version and I know of only one Coptic version that translates as you say.  I believe it is a Third or Forth Century manuscript and a Sahidic dialect.

Quote

And if this wasn't enough, let's see what G. Horner really wrote: Bohairic: In (the) beginning was the Word, and the Word was (imperf.) with God, and God (indef. art.) was the Word. Sahidic: In the beginning was being the word, and the word was being with God, and [a] God was the word.

Quote

Horner translates John 1:16 as: “Because out of fulness we all of us took [a] life and [a] grace in place of [a] grace.” He also renders John 1:26 as “I am baptizing you in [a] water”

My source is Christian Topics

The Dead Sea Scrolls are Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek while the sign above Jesus was in Latin, Aramaic, and, Greek.  I am going to venture that early manuscripts were written in those languages but we simply do not have them for one reason or another.

So it is not the First Chance as Vetus Latina is as old, and probably older by the simple fact that it existed as a written language before Coptic came to be.  In addition the Coptic “a” is not the English “a” so in Coptic “a God” can still be equivalent to the English “God” just like “a water” is equivalent to the English “water”.

All of that is of no real matter though it has a certain interest.

The crux of the matter is as follows.

Where is Jesus called a god in Revelations 19:11-15?

John 17:5 infers Jesus had glory with Jehovah before God created the earth and that Jesus was not yet glorified with that glory as of his petition in John 17.5.

1) Jesus' glory was with Jehovah before the beginning.
2) Jesus is called by the name of the Word at the time John sees him in a vision.
3) Jesus is called God, but not Jehovah, in  Scripture.

Your three points stand refuted.

Quote

Now, on the flip side, you guys offer me this: 1.  It is “sensible” for God Almighty Himself to be WITH God Almighty Himself. 2.  The translation of “the Word was God” just feels better to me.

I never actually wrote either of these two things.  The closest I have claimed is:

1) The Word is made concrete in God, and is with God.
2) The translation of the Word is God is reasonable as God is made flesh by dwelling in those that believe by his Spirit.

[2besee]

Mike, there are many things that I never posted in that long post……….. but 'part two' will have to wait until I “get back”….Later!

[GeneBalthrop]

2besee……………….A long but very good post brother. My hope is that all  will read it completely and think about what you have written and put together for us brother.

peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………gene

[terraricca]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 30 2013,09:50)

Quote is any one can tell me what his a god because it seems 2bee and others do not understand what the word god means ;in scriptures that is ; the way I see it is this way; first their his and will be only one truth almighty God ,that created all thing visible and invisible ,THIS HIS CLEAR AND WE NEVER WILL CHANGE THAT ;RIGHT , NOW TWO THINGS HAPPEN 1) one of God angel REBEL TOWARDS HIS GOD  ,his name came to be known as SATAN (ADVERSARY)  2) he corrupted the creation just created a little lower that the angels , whit this in mind there have now been changes implemented,to Gods creation ,and understand that God almighty just took a rest for a day (time of day ) to be continued , >2 part 2… now what God find himself with two rebels Satan and Adam , and this in his rest , this is were the WORD of GOD his son is planed to make some moves to fix the problem ; but it seems that their should be no problem just destroy and restart ,right but God can not lie ;did he not say to Adam and Eve to multiply and full the earth and to master over all living creatures,??? yes to all questions and so it was that God did not destroy all his creation but in time he sew good man coming along and was moved until the time of Noah he called it the end of that era or age ,but something did not changed it is the experience that they ad all lived on the other side of the flood , that was the seed of the devil (satan) even though it did not changed them but it did to their offspring wen the story wen around ,and also the blessings and the prophecy foretold by the patriarch to his sons ,(words ad great value in those days people did not talk to say nothing unless they were not a man yet )  so the real problem became what to do to fix the problem and save men or human kind (this imply only the one that are chosen )from the rebellion now in full swing , this is the great work of God to set up a system to only save those who are worthy of him, first Moses great works fulfillment of prophecy ,setting up new nation with new laws and new understanding ,but why well to set up the stage that was the plan at the beginning to bring down at one specific time the WORD of God alias the son of God alias to become the Christ and savior in the name of his father , we can read many of those details in the book of Chronicles ,and other books of God s chosen people ,we also learn trough those years that God has a way and should be followed for our own sake ,but time passes and now at come that the Christ as to appear ,(but all according to what God ad foretold ears earlier like generations earlier,) so the WORD of God  the son of God was SEND TO BECOME A MAN TO FULFILL THE LAW AND DIE TO ANNUL(AND TAKE ON HIMSELF ALL THE SINS OF MEN ) IT FOR ALL MAN KIND SO THAT MEN FROM THE ALL EARTH CAN RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE, FOR THIS REASON THE CHRIST COULD NOT HAVE BEEN A PART OF THE HUMAN RACE WERE THEIR WAS A CURSE ON ,SO HE CAME AND WAS GIVEN TO A WOMEN SO THAT HE COULD BE COVERED WITH FLESH THIS WAS THE ONLY THING THAT THE SON OF GOD NEEDED TO BE A PART OF HUMAN KIND SO MARY WAS HIS SURROGATE MOTHER ,SHE AD TO ACCEPT THE SON THAT SHE GIVE BIRTH TO AS THE SON OF GOD AND AS THE WORD OF GOD IF SHE WANTED TO BE SAVED BY HIM , WEN CHRIST TIME CAME TO BE OLD ENOUGH AND WAS READY HE NOW CAME OUT HAS THE MESSIAH OR CHRIST ,HE CAME FIRST AS A PRIEST THE GRAND PRIEST ,AND SO WEN TO JOHN THE PROPHET TO BE DIP IN WATER  SO HE WOULD BE CLEAN TO OFFER HIS SACRIFICE TO GOD HIS FATHER FOR THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL THE WITNESSING OF JOHN AS TO WHO CHRIST WAS WAS MADE CLEAR TO ALL ,BUT WHAT GOD SAID AND HOW THE HOLY SPIRIT CONFIRM HIS APPOINTMENT IS NOW WITHOUT A DOUBT,HE WAS AND HIS THE SON AND THE WORD OF GOD , FROM THEN ON CHRIST WAS WORKING FOR WHAT WOULD BECOME THE NEXT AGE ,AGE THAT WOULD START AFTER HE AD FINISH HIS EARTHLY WORK ,AND SO RETURN TO HIS FATHER STILL CLOTHED WITH FLESH BUT WOULD SHED IT TO RETAKE HIS FORMER LIFE AS AN HEAVENLY BEING WITH GLORY OF HIS OWN,NEXT TO THE FATHER ,HIS FATHER . TO CONTINUED ……3)

part 3…

what have we learn sins creation till Christ ;

1) God saves people that are looking to become righteous and live by the righteousness of God ,

2)we learn that wen God picked a men to be an instrument to teach other or guide them it should not be question after it as been proven that that men his really of God .

3)we also learn that God as set out a written word so it could be thought to all generation for their own salvation ,in the hope that he foretold ,

4)wen time came God as send down from heaven his only begotten son ,to die to save humanity ,many will be saved and their sins forgotten but ,but unless they come to Christ they will pay for what they do ,or facing the second dead,

Now we have a written word that explains what God wants from people that want to be in his favor,but the devil also as in mean time as developed a great people that refused to accept God's rules ,and the way of thinking of those people have developed in many versions of why we should not worship the God of creation ,and used cleverly wisdom to twist things in their own favor ,

this his the thinking that his called in scriptures “spirit of the world ” in opposition to what is called “”the holy spirit “” or “the spirit of truth”” or the ” the spirit of the law ,”” or ” the spirit of the scriptures “” it takes understanding and maturity in God's word to be able to make a distinction between them ,and wen to apply each one in his own place ,

Ecc 7:20 There is not a righteous man on earth
who does what is right and never sins.

we all need Christ and his sacrifice to be cleared from our sins and receive everlasting live,but we have to fight for it ;

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning(this is the beginning of Christ and the preaching of the gospel) which we have heard (gospel), which we have seen with our eyes(Christ the son of God), which we have looked at and our hands have touched(again Christ )—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.(this his Christ also called THE WORD of God )
1Jn 1:2 The life appeared;(this his Christ because he came to give his live so that others will live ) we have seen it (they have seen it because of all the miracles that Christ did )and testify to it (they are Christ witnesses ), and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.(this is clear that it talks about THE WORD that his Jesus Christ )
1Jn 1:3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 We write this to make our joy complete.(this is John testimony of Christ ,the WORD OF GOD )

1Jn 2:14 I write to you, fathers,
because you have known him who is from the beginning.

I write to you, young men,
because you are strong,

and the word of God lives in you,(HERE YOU CAN SEE WHAT IS THAT IS IN YOU (US) THE WRITTEN WORDS ,THE TEACHINGS FROM CHRIST THROUGH HIS DISCIPLES, WITCH DISCIPLES WERE CHOSEN BY GOD AND CHRIST TO DO THE WORK THEY DID FOR US ALL,)

and you have overcome the evil one. (THIS OVERCOMING OF THE EVIL ONE MEANS THAT THROUGHOUT YOUR LIVE YOU HAVE STAYED FAITHFUL TO THE WILL OF GOD AND THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST TO THE POINT EVEN OVERLOOK YOU OWN LIVE FOR THE TRUTH,)

1Jn 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
1Jn 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
1Jn 2:21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.
1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.

LET MAKE IT CLEAR THAT THE ANTICHRIST HIS A PERSON THAT HAS CHANGED THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST INTO HIS OWN KINGDOM AND SO HE HIS ANTI CHRIST ,BECAUSE BY DOING SO HE KILLS THE WAY TO CHRIST AND HIS FATHER ,

1Jn 2:25 And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.
1Jn 2:26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.
1Jn 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

IT IS ALL ABOUT THOSE TWO SPIRITS ONE OF GOD AND THE OTHER FROM THE EVIL ONE ,BUT BOTH ARE TEACHINGS

THE TRUTH AS BEEN FROM THE BEGINNING AND CAN NOT AND MUST NOT CHANGE.

1Jn 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
1Jn 3:5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
1Jn 3:7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

1Jn 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.(GOD SEED MEANS THE TRUTH OF SCRIPTURES UNDERSTANDING )

1Jn 3:23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT IT MEAN 'S IN VERSE 24, AS TO “LIVE IN GOD OR CHRIST ;IT IS BY OBEYING HIS COMMAND AND THAT ALSO MEAN THAT THEY BOTH LIVE IN US ;
BECAUSE THE SPIRIT “” UNDERSTANDING OF THE TRUTH “”” THAT CHRIST GIVE US ALL THROUGH HIS DISCIPLES ,

1Jn 4:12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.(GOD CAN LIVE IN US BY OR THROUGH OUR ACTIONS OF LOVE )
1Jn 4:5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them.
1Jn 4:6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

JOHN GOES ON TO SHOW THAT THE OPPOSITION ARE REAL AND THAT IT IS WITH THE TRUTH THAT WE WILL OVERCOME THE WORLD ;

1Jn 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. (NOTICE IT IS SINGULAR GOD AS ONE SON ONLY )
1Jn 5:2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.
1Jn 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
1Jn 5:6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that testify:

1Jn 5:9 We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.
1Jn 5:10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

IF GOD WAS FIRST TO LOVE US WE SHOULD RETURN HIS LOVE BY LOVING HIM AND DO IT AS HE ASK BY OBEYING HIS COMMANDS ,

1Jn 5:8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.THE SPIRIT MEAN THE WORKS THAT WAS DONE THROUGH THE MIRACLES THAT GOD DID FOR CHRIST TO HELP US TO BELIEVE IN HIM THE ONE HE SEND TO US ,

THE WATER; MEANS THE TEACHINGS THE UNDERSTANDING OF SCRIPTURES AND HOW TO APPLY THEM TO BE UNDERSTOOD ,

THE BLOOD ; BECAUSE HE POUR OUT HIS BLOOD SO THAT WE ALL MEN CAN HAVE HOPE TO EVERLASTING LIVE ,AND BE FREED FROM OUR SINS .

..CONTINUE ….4…

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 31 2013,07:27)

First we see in Rev 19 Jesus is the lamb, He is NAMED in verse 10 as Jesus, but then chapters 11-16 say that the rider on the white horse “has a name inscribed which no one else knows but he himself' though he is called The Word of God. If no-one else knows his name, does that mean God does not know his name? No! Because 'The Word' is of God and is God. (John 1:1). So we have Jesus the man (who was slain as the lamb of God), and then we have the word (who is the spirit of God and also is God). 'He (the word) is called faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. He is clad in a robe dipped in blood (Possible, the robe dipped in blood was the flesh body, Jesus, which he, the spirit, was 'dressed in'…. 'A body you have prepared for me' ….). He smites the nations with a sharp sword of his mouth (The Word). He will rule them with a rod of iron. He is the King of Kings and the Lord of lords.   So we see in Rev 19 the words 'the faithful and true witness' which is also seen in Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in La-odice'a write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.“ The beginning of God's creation…. This is not saying that The Word was ever created, it is saying that the world was created through him. 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.' The first thing that happened was God's Spirit moved over the waters; and then God spoke. ———————— 'He smites the nations with a sharp sword from his mouth (His Words)' Revelations 2:16, 'Repent then. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth.  He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.' He will war against them with the word of his mouth, he who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches. —————— 'He will rule them with a rod of iron' Rev 2:27: 'He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations,  and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father;  and I will give him the morning star.  He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ The 'conquerers' are also given power to rule over the nations with a rod of iron, as Jesus also conquered and was given the power to rule. —————– 'He is the King of Kings and the Lord of lords.' Rev 17:14, 'They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.' 1Tim 6:14-16, 'I charge you to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ; and this will be made manifest at the proper time……………. by the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,  who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.' This is the Lord God Almighty; the Father. Jesus the lamb is called the Lord of lords and the King of kings, and God Almighty is also called the King of kings and the Lord of lords. This is answered with the following verse: 'That they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.'

2besee…….It was indeed the Spiirt of GOD issuing It's Words through the mouth of Jesus to us all. If that Sprit is in Us it will perforn the same thing in us as it did Jesus. God and His word are one and the same thing.

Jesus said the “words” I am telling you are “spirit” and life He also said those words he spoke were not his words But the Words of Him that sent Him, and the one that sent him was God who Jesus said was Spirit , So God the Father was in the Flesh , the flesh man Jesus and God the Father Spoke “HIS WORDS” through the “MAN” Jesus.

You have it right brother, my hope Mike will at least concider this and also Pierre and T8, as well as others too.

peace and love to you and your and thanks for being here brother…………………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 29 2013,21:39)

It is like you do not know what conception is when it relates to Jesus but you do when it relates to John the Baptist or any other human.

It's like YOU don't have the same guidelines when speaking about “conceived” as you do when speaking about “born”.

You say a person can only be “conceived” once. Well, aren't all persons also “born” only once?

Yet, Jesus speaks about us being “born AGAIN”. Kerwin, why do you believe a person can be “born” twice, but “conceived” only once?

You brought up John the Baptist. How many times was this son of Elizabeth born, Kerwin? Aren't human beings, as a general rule, only born once?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 29 2013,21:53)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 30 2013,05:45) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 29 2013,16:15) Bad mushrooms are a corruption of Satan and so we petition God to deliver us from them. What?  Satan corrupted the earth's mushroom supply?   Hmmmm…………… Kerwin, will you please address the third post down on page 111? Mike, There is a war going on and poison food, except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, does not seem  to be an item Jehovah had in the garden. Who do you think modifies genetics in order to cause the world's ills?

Kerwin,

Arsenic is also not a good thing for human beings to eat, right?  Yet here it is, smack dab in the middle of the planet God made for human beings.

What makes you think these mushrooms that are poisonous to men don't serve a different natural purpose for God?

[terraricca]

Kerwin

look at this and learn;

Human molecular formula
What exactly is a human?

A circa 2002 off-the-cuff quickly-made scratch-paper attempt of the calculation of the human molecular formula for a typical human, i.e. a crude-version molecular formula for a human, by American chemical engineer Libb Thims, using a percentage ratio method; arrived at during the writing of a three-volume unpublished manuscript, entitled Human Thermodynamics (see: publications, unpublished section), following about seven years worth of thought on how to model human reproduction as a chemical reaction (no analogy), of the form A + B → C (where A is a man, B a woman, and C a newly conceived child), in terms of the spontaneity criterion. [10]
In human chemistry, the human molecular formula is the chemical formula for one human, showing the total number of elements that comprise the typical 150-pound person, in which view the person is defined “human molecule” or “human chemical”, among other names, such as human chemical element, human chemical species, human particle, etc.

There are two types of formulas, one the “empirical molecular formula”, showing the ratios of elements in proportion to the smallest element, according to percent mass composition, second the “molecular formula”, showing numbers of all the elements present in the molecule.

Earliest views
The earliest views of what humans were comprised of—stemming largely from the ancient Egypt, namely the circa 3100 Heliopolis creation myth (see: Nun cosmology)—held that humans were made of clay (see: clay creation theory) and given the breath or spirit of life (see: creation by breath) to become animated (alive).

In circa 500 BC, Greek philosopher Xenophanes (c.570-c.475BC) held that “all creatures that come into being are earth and water.” [21]

In circa 450 BC, Greek philosopher Empedocles originating the first standard model of physics, according to which the universe was comprised of four elements: fire (), earth (), air (), water (), meaning that humans are entities made of four elements, whose interactions were governed by two forces: philia (●→|←●), i.e. attraction (or love) and neikos (←●|●→), i.e. repulsion (or hate). The various tissues of the body, according to Empedocles, were comprised of various proportions of these elements: blood contained equal amounts of all four; bone is four parts fire to two parts of water and earth, and so on. [21] This can loosely be said to be the first groping at the idea a human molecular formula.

An depiction of the new paradigm change: that of the old normal science Egyptian model of humans molded into shape from the clay of the earth and given the breath of life by a God (or gods), as taught to us through Christianity, Islam, or Hinduism, predominately, to that of the new coming to be seen as normal science model (hmolscience) of humans “synthesized” (see: human free energy of formation) by the workings of the universe and given “animation” and or reactivity by the “powers” of the known forces of existence as explained by the equations of thermodynamics.

In circa 375 BC, Greek philosopher Plato held that humans were made by gods “out of earth and fire”. [21]

Early chemical views
In circa 1790s, French chemist Antoine Lavoisier, supposedly, hypothesized, determined, or experimentally measured that humans are comprised of primarily three elements carbon, hydrogen (inflammable air), and oxygen: [20]

Human = f{C, H, O,}

In 1899, English physiologist John Thornton stated that there were 72 elements known in chemistry and that 14 of these enter into the composition of the human body: oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, sulphur, phosphorus, chlorine, sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium, iron, fluorine, and silicon; and noted that other elements, such as manganese and lead, have sometimes been found in small quantities. [11] In formulaic terms, at the turn of the 20th century it was known that a human had the following generalized 14-element molecular formula:

Human = f{O, C, H, N, S, P, Cl, Na, K, Ca, Mg, Fe, Fl, S}

George Carey
(1845-1924)Alfred Redfield
(1890-1983)

In 1919, about 81 elements were known, and it was in this year that American physician George Carey, shown adjacent, in his Chemistry of Human Life, famous stated, in a rather prophetic manner, that: [2]

“Man's body is a chemical formula in operation.”

Carey, here, was the first to state that not only that the elements that comprise a human can be written as a formula but more to the point that a human is molecular formula “in operation” as he says. This is a huge jump in the insight of human thinking.

In 1925, American chemist Edwin Slosson, in his section on the chemistry of creation and atomic turnover, stated that: “We care nothing, really, for the particular atoms of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen that make up what we mistakenly call ourselves.” [9] Thus, according to Slosson, a human would be characterized by the following generalized 4-element molecular formula:

Human = f{C, H, O, N}

In 1934, American oceanographer Alfred Redfield (1890-1983), shown adjacent, published his “On the Proportions of Organic Derivations in Sea Water and their Relation to the Composition of Plankton”, in which he found that the atomic ratio of carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorus found in ocean plankton is: [14]

C:N:P = 106:16:1

This has since come to be known as the “Redfield ratio”. [15] The extrapolation of this methodology up to humans would be the publication of an article along the lines of “On the Proportions of Organic Derivations in North America and South America and their Relation to the Composition of Americans and Brazilians”. In any event, Redfield followed his C:N:P ratio work up with his 1958 American Scientist article “The Biological Control of Chemical Factors in the Environment”, which, according to American ecologist Peter Vitousek (2002), is the pioneering article ecological stoichiometric analysis. [16] It was this element ratio work of Redfield that led to the first calculation of the molecular formula for a human by American limnologists Robert Sterner and James Elser in 2000 (see below).

In 1972, American scientist Earl Frieden published his “The Chemical Elements of Life” article in Scientific American, in which he supposedly gave a table in which a human is comprised of 16 elements: [12]

Human = F{O, C, H, N, Ca, P, K, S, Na, Cl, Mg, Fe, Cu, Mo, Zn, I}

A 2001 periodic table listing of elements found to have function or possibly have function in animate organisms. [13]

Towards the late 20th century, scientists began to categorize these dozen-and-a-half or so listing of elements that comprise a human into the format division of “main elements” and “trace elements”.

In 2001, to exemplify, Portuguese chemists J.J. da Silva and English chemist Robert Williams made what they termed a “biological elements period table”, as shown adjacent, captioned as the “distribution of elements essential for life in the periodic table”, which lists thirty total elements, 11 bulk elements, 14 trace elements, and 7 possibly essential trace: [13]

● Bulk elements: H, C, N, O, Na, Mg, P, S, Cl, K, Ca
● Trace elements: B, F, Si, V, Cr, Mn, Fe, Co, Ni, Cu, Zn, Se, Mo, I
● Possibly essential: As, Br, Sr, Cd, Sn, Ba, W

found in animated organisms. The labeling of “elements essential for life”, to note, is an anthropocentric-religious-mythology slant to the picture; whereas, correctly, the table should be labeled as “elements found to have function in animate organism”, being that there is no such thing as a “living” atom, molecule, chemical, or atomic geometry (see: defunct theory of life).

A recent 2012 blog post by a chemistry teacher called Gibby, comments the following: [17]

“You are what you eat. Bu
t do you recall munching some molybdenum or snacking on selenium? Some 60 chemical elements are found in the body, but what all of them are doing there is still unknown.”

This unsourced statement, shown below the adjacent diagram, however, seems to be on the high end; the general rule is that an element has to be found to have a specific active function in the human body if it is to be included in the molecular formula for that body.

Sterner-Elser empirical molecular formula
See main: Sterner-Elser human molecular formula
On 18 Apr 2000, or circa thereabouts, inspired by the earlier 1934-1958 C:N:P ratio plankton composition work of American oceanographer Alfred Redfield, the first calculation of the empirical molecular formula for an average human was done by American limnologists Robert Sterner and James Elser who determined the following human empirical molecular formula for an average human: [2]

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 29 2013,23:33)

Until then it was accepted by the church as canon, and they had no problem with this teaching. Why?

Probably because it contradicts other scriptures.  For example:

The holy, pre-existent Spirit, that created every creature, God made to dwell in flesh, which He chose.

He assumed it as a partner with it.

First, there is no scripture that says the Holy Spirit of God “created every creature”.  Compare:

Malachi 2:10
Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us?
The Father, who is our God, created us.  The Holy Spirit of the Father is not the Father Himself.  (Hence, the word “OF”.)

Secondly:

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

This scripture (among others) proves that Jesus is NOT the Holy Spirit, nor is he any “combo being” contrived of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

2B, if you want to talk about Hermas, there are many threads on HN already dedicated to that book.  Right now, we are working on John 1:1.  If Hermas is correct, you should be able to also show this “Holy Spirit Son” theory using the other scriptures, right?

So let's get back to 1:1, without using secular writings as our proof, okay?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 29 2013,23:42)

There is only one Son of God mentioned and it is the Holy Spirit.

2B,

By definition, the word “son” implies a being who hasn't existed as long as his father. Yet you believe the Holy Spirit of God has been around as long as the Father has been around, right? How can that be? A father ALWAYS exists BEFORE his son does.

So you are inadvertently saying that the Holy Spirit of God had a beginning. That it was “begotten”, “created”, or “brought forth” into existence in some manner.

Look, there are MANY scriptures that counter this claim of the Holy Spirit being God's son. I will be happy to devote an entire thread to that subject, 2B. But first, can we please finish John 1?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 30 2013,11:43)

Mike, Angels and humans are both the created kind and their bodies are created by God. God does not have a created body and so even if he had a body it is not the same as the body of an angel. So only Jehovah exists in the uncreated “form” of God.

Kerwin,

That is just nonsense. Jehovah is a spirit being, complete with eyes, feet, hands, ears, etc. Angels are also spirit beings with these same things.

To be “in the form of God” could easily just refer to another spirit being. Being “in the form of God” doesn't automatically mean you are uncreated.

Not only that, but Phil 2 EXPLICITELY says that JESUS (not “Jehovah”) was existing in the form of God. Unless you believe that Jesus IS Jehovah, your point is moot.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 30 2013,14:13)

To say that there is only one God which is YHVH and to then apply that bible rule to the verse in John 1:1 is correct.

Oops, let me stop you right there, 2B. The scriptures teach of MANY gods, one of which is Jesus Christ.

Is what I've said above scripturally correct, or not?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 30 2013,14:13)

The Logos was a part of God just as your Word is a part of you.

My word is not a part of me, 2B. My words are POSSESSIONS of me, hence the words “MY word”.

Did you realize that what we commonly called “The Ten Commandments” are, in Hebrew, called “The Ten Words of God”?

Now does God have TEN different words, which are all a part of Him? Are the very words “Thou shalt not steal” a part of the being of God Almighty? Or are they simply words that God has commanded us?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 30 2013,14:13)

That Spirit is no-one else's Spirit, it is God's Spirit. So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Also called the Son… “No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.“

So then the ones to whom the Son reveals the Father will also become the Holy Spirit of God?

2B, you are supposed to be addressing my post, and showing me ANYTHING in it that isn't supported by the scriptures I posted.

Instead, you are pushing your “Holy Spirit Son of God” thing.  Here is the question again:

So “Jesus” fits every criteria in John 1:1.  
1.  He was with God in the beginning.  
2.  He is called “the Word”.  
3.  And he is “a god”, according to scripture.

Can anyone scripturally refute any of the three points I just wrote?

Well? Can you?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 30 2013,14:13)

…….God is light and in him is no darkness at all. …if we walk in the light, as he (God) is in the light…..

Okay 2B,

We are talking ONLY about John 1:1 right now.  The reason I'm going one verse at a time is to AVOID oversized posts like the one you made.  Too much info in one post doesn't get anyone anywhere.  We must discuss each tidbit of information individually to arrive at the truth.

(In other words, I COULD take a few hours to address each and every point you made in your post.  But then MY post would be even bigger than yours.  And your response would be even bigger than mine.  And so on, and so on.  Trust me, I've been there before.)

I do want you to remember those two scriptures quoted above, for when we get to verse 4.  Remember that God is both called “light”, and also said to be “IN the light”.

The rest of your post seems to be a claim that there LITERALLY exists only one “elohim” (god) in scripture. We know this is absolutely NOT the case, so you should really put this line of reasoning to rest.

To sum up:

MY scripture-backed explanation of John 1:1 is accurate, and fits all the criteria.

YOUR explanation remains this:
1.  The Word actually IS God, therefore John, for some odd reason, was telling us, “In the beginning was God.  And God was with God.  And God was God.”

Hmmmm……………………  Does that really sound sensible to you, 2B?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 30 2013,14:27)

Rev 19:11-16 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! He (1.  who is the “HE” here?) who sat upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he (2.  and here?)color judges and makes war. His (3.  and here?) eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his (4.  and here?) head are many diadems; and he (5.  and here?) has a name inscribed which no one knows but himself. He (6.  and here?) is clad in a robe (Jesus' Body) dipped in blood, and the name by which he (7.  and here?) is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, followed him on white horses. From his mouth (Jesus) (8.  wait a minute…….. are we to just assume that John HAS BEEN talking about the Holy Spirit, and then just switches subjects without any warning?) issues a sharp sword with which to smite the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords.

Okay 2B,

It seems you take issue with my supporting scriptures.  Fair enough, let's deal with them.

I have added my own words into your post.  Please address those 8 purple points.

For the first 7 points, just write “Holy Spirit” or “Jesus”. The 8th point requires a little more than one word.

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