In the Beginning

[2besee]

Gene, Ed, and T,
Getting to your posts. just having some thinking time.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 28 2013,16:50)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 28 2013,15:45) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 28 2013,15:28) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 28 2013,15:14) I know God has given “Liberty” to exercises our Captivated Wills Hi Gene, What is this suppose to mean anyway?       is your will captivated by something? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org ED J……Yes it is Hardly a “FREE” Willer ED J. As i said i belive we do have Liberty to excercise those captivired Will no matter what they are. I only hope my Will is being brought into the captivity of Christ. And I can with Gods help put my “captivated” will to death, by the same Spirit Jesus put his Will to death by. Peace and love to you Brother…………………………..gene Hi Gene, Christ sets our “Will” free from the captivity of sin; that's the good news my friend! “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.“ All us “Free-Willers” can now unite! (see John 8:36) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

ED J…..Paul did not seem to think he was totally free from sin now did he? Ed J, i believe as long as we have these present bodies we still have sin present (in) them. Did not John say he who say he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him. and as reguards to saying Christ has set us Free from captivity of sin that is true, but notice it also say for he led captive a host of captives. I may not have quoted that exactly rigth but to that effect .

But It is evident that we are to be brought into the captivity of God's Will. Jesus said “thy kingdom Come Thy “WILL” be done in earth as in heaven”….> So if it is God's Will that is to be done what happens to our So-called “FREE” WILLS. are they not brought into captivity by anothers Will ,”GOD'S” ? Get my point brother.

I still believe what you guys get mixed up is the Liberty we have to excercise our “captivated Will s”with the Wills Themselves being FREE. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 28 2013,18:12)

You have mixed me up     But you do not answer any of my question any way ,my point was that God does not create until his rest is done, It is you that says that Christ would be god/man what is Isiaiah 9;4-8 says That The son will be called mighty god , got this One more thing ,what do you call a man that is in charge of an entire planet  I call him a god

2besee………Remember Pierre is a Old man like me and sometimes we get our wires crossed. Not to mention he has a little problem with English expressions because he's of a different culture, so there is somewhat of a Language bearer.

Pierre actually 2besee answered all of them brother.

peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

[kerwin]

T,

Quote

so the rest of the human race was not God's creation

Deuteronomy is calling the children of Israel his children as they claim to serve him just as the children of other nations served other other gods. In serving other gods they rejected Jehovah as their god and Father.

Quote

but to you it is not ,because you try to change the do process that God as put in place ,and use the recovery from sin to use it to cover your ignorance

That is just a groundless accusation and so merely distracts from the conversation. What God teaches us is that every good and perfect gift comes from above. The Anointed, John's baptism, and the Spirit are all from above. Those that receive and walk by the Spirit and he who fulfills the prophecy of the Anointed are also from above.

[kerwin]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 28 2013,20:53)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 28 2013,16:50) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 28 2013,15:45) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 28 2013,15:28) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 28 2013,15:14) I know God has given “Liberty” to exercises our Captivated Wills Hi Gene, What is this suppose to mean anyway?       is your will captivated by something? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org ED J……Yes it is Hardly a “FREE” Willer ED J. As i said i belive we do have Liberty to excercise those captivired Will no matter what they are. I only hope my Will is being brought into the captivity of Christ. And I can with Gods help put my “captivated” will to death, by the same Spirit Jesus put his Will to death by. Peace and love to you Brother…………………………..gene Hi Gene, Christ sets our “Will” free from the captivity of sin; that's the good news my friend! “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.“ All us “Free-Willers” can now unite! (see John 8:36) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org ED J…..Paul did not seem to think he was totally free from sin now did he?  Ed J, i believe as long as we have these present bodies we still have sin present (in) them. Did not John say he who say he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him. and as reguards to saying Christ has set us Free from captivity of sin  that is true, but notice it also say for he led captive a host of captives. I may not have quoted that exactly rigth but to that effect . But It is evident that we are to be brought into the captivity of God's Will. Jesus said “thy kingdom Come Thy “WILL” be done in earth as in heaven”….> So if it is God's Will that is to be done what happens to our So-called “FREE” WILLS. are they not brought into captivity by anothers Will ,”GOD'S” ? Get my point brother. I still believe what you guys get mixed up is the Liberty we have to excercise our “captivated Will s”with the Wills Themselves being FREE. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene

Gene,

Did you consider the possibility that sin in 1 John is either shorthand for sinful nature or is speaking of sins committed before maturity is reached?

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin……..I believe as Paul said that Sin does dwell in all of our Bodies and yes i do believe we should be doing better with God's Spirit in growing unto the Full Stature and Measure of Christ, but will we ever reach 100%  Percent in this life i have my doubts, but never the less i as Paul continue to reach for the mark of the high calling.  I try to be honest with myself, and my thoughts at times are not alway right Brother.  My sins will  not destroy me, because Jesus died for my sins and God has excepted His sacrifice for my sins and has placed me under his Grace even if i have some sins still left to overcome.

Look I am not saying we should still sin, Like Paul brought out, that we should sin, that Grace may abound, God forbid, but i do not deceive myself and say i have nothing to repent of either. Sin still works in this Body of Death i poess at this time. I believe like David , blessed is he whom the LORD will not impute Sin whose iniquities he has covered. I am under God's Grace, by the covering of the blood of Jesus Christ, but that is no license to Sin Brother. But if i sin, i have and advocate Christ Jesus My Lord and he is the Propitiation for my sin. That propitiation is ongoing and will never cease for it is by Grace that we are saved  and not of the self or works of Law.  

I will as a result be forever in debt to both God the Father and Jesus the Christ. To God the Father for life, and to Jesus my Brother who gave his life for my sin. A debt i could not have paid and still lived. Because the requirement by God judgement was eternal death for my sins, so how could i pay it and still live , But thanks be to God he allowed Jesus to Pay my debt and give me eternal life. For it is a true statement that  “mercy wrestles against Judgment”.

My hope for all of us is that someday we will all reach to the full maturity and stature of Jesus Christ, and i believe we will, not because of who we are,  but because of who God the Father is, and who we are in Christ Jesus our lord. We are more then conquers through him who loved us and gave himself for us all. IMO

peace and love to you and yours Kerwin……………………………………………………..gene

[Ed J]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 29 2013,01:53)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 28 2013,16:50) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 28 2013,15:45) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 28 2013,15:28) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 28 2013,15:14) I know God has given “Liberty” to exercises our Captivated Wills Hi Gene, What is this suppose to mean anyway?       is your will captivated by something? God bless Ed J ED J……Yes it is Hardly a “FREE” Willer ED J. As i said i belive we do have Liberty to excercise those captivired Will no matter what they are. I only hope my Will is being brought into the captivity of Christ. And I can with Gods help put my “captivated” will to death, by the same Spirit Jesus put his Will to death by. Peace and love to you Brother…………………………..gene Hi Gene, Christ sets our “Will” free from the captivity of sin; that's the good news my friend! “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.“ All us “Free-Willers” can now unite! (see John 8:36) God bless Ed J ED J…..Paul did not seem to think he was totally free from sin now did he?  Ed J, i believe as long as we have these present bodies we still have sin present (in) them. Did not John say he who say he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him. and as reguards to saying Christ has set us Free from captivity of sin  that is true, but notice it also say for he led captive a host of captives. I may not have quoted that exactly rigth but to that effect . But It is evident that we are to be brought into the captivity of God's Will. Jesus said “thy kingdom Come Thy “WILL” be done in earth as in heaven”….> So if it is God's Will that is to be done what happens to our So-called “FREE” WILLS. are they not brought into captivity by anothers Will ,”GOD'S” ? Get my point brother. I still believe what you guys get mixed up is the Liberty we have to excercise our “captivated Will s”with the Wills Themselves being FREE. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene

Hi Gene,

Simple, we use our “Free Will” to submit ourselves voluntarily to
“God's Will”, which is the meaning of “Christian”(a follower of Christ).
(Christ submitted his “Free Will” to DOING “God's Will” and so must we)

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 28 2013,22:19)

Kerwin……..I believe as Paul said that Sin does dwell in all of our Bodies and yes i do believe we should be doing better with God's Spirit in growing unto the Full Stature and Measure of Christ, but will we ever reach 100%  Percent in this life i have my doubts, but never the less i as Paul continue to reach for the mark of the high calling.  I try to be honest with myself, and my thoughts at times are not alway right Brother.  My sins will  not destroy me, because Jesus died for my sins and God has excepted His sacrifice for my sins and has placed me under his Grace even if i have some sins still left to overcome. Look I am not saying we should still sin,  Like Paul brought out, that we should sin, that Grace may abound, God forbid, but i do not deceive myself and say i have nothing to repent of either. Sin still works in this Body of Death i poess at this time. I believe like David , blessed is he whom the LORD will not impute Sin whose iniquities he has covered. I am under God's Grace, by the covering of the blood of Jesus Christ, but that is no license to Sin Brother. But if i sin, i have and advocate Christ Jesus My Lord and he is the Propitiation for my sin. That propitiation is ongoing and will never cease for it is by Grace that we are saved  and not of the self or works of Law.   I will as a result be forever in debt to both God the Father and Jesus the Christ. To God the Father for life, and to Jesus my Brother who gave his life for my sin. A debt i could not have paid and still lived. Because the requirement by God judgement was eternal death for my sins, so how could i pay it and still live , But thanks be to God he allowed Jesus to Pay my debt and give me eternal life. For it is a true statement that  “mercy wrestles against Judgment”. My hope for all of us is that someday we will all reach to the full maturity and stature of Jesus Christ, and i believe we will, not because of who we are,  but because of who God the Father is, and who we are in Christ Jesus our lord. We are more then conquers through him who loved us and gave himself for us all. IMO peace and love to you and yours Kerwin……………………………………………………..gene

Gene,

The words of 1 John on this matter are:

1 John 1:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

But John also writes:

1 John 2:1
King James Version (KJV)

2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

The word “if” teaches us that a man may or may not sin. If John were stating that all men will sin then he would have stated “when” and not “if” in 1 John 2:1.

Let us say 1 John 1:8 is speaking of the sin that dwells in us.
If that is the case then John's use of “if” in 2:1 is explained.

Jesus promised that those that hungered and thirsted for righteousness would be filled with it.

We do not believe what we have but what we hope for knowing that at the right time we will obtain it.

We believe God that he will do as he states, but I am not presently willing to state anything about those cut off before God has finished his work, if any such exist.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 27 2013,00:02)

I would be a fool to follow something different than what has been shown to me. Where would it lead me? i tell you, nowhere!

I sense a little hostility in that post, 2B. But that's okay. I'm used to it by now. It seems that when you show people actual scriptures that contradict the belief they're already comforable with, they get a little testy with the messenger.

As long as you're okay with claiming that the Holy Spirit WASN'T begotten, but it IS God's only begotten Son – what more can I say?

I thought I was helping by pointing out how irrational that understanding was.

Sorry to have offended.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 27 2013,00:19)

T, Because it is rumor that you wish to hear. I have not even seen evidence that such a manuscript exists, much less that it is the original wording.

From NETNotes:
Most witnesses (B2 C D L Θ Ë1 33 Ï lat) have “children” (τέκνων, teknwn) here instead of “deeds” (ἔργων, ergwn), but since “children” is the reading of the parallel in Luke 7:35, scribes would be motivated to convert the less colorful “deeds” into more animate offspring of wisdom. Further, ἔργων enjoys support from א B* W (Ë13) as well as early versional and patristic support.

There are two mss that have “deeds” listed at the bottom of that info, Kerwin. It's not really that big of a deal, since the parallel in Luke 7:35 does indeed have “children”.

(Just because you haven't personally seen evidence is no reason to call the info I posted for you a “rumor”.)

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 27 2013,00:30)

If Jesus' conception had been “consistent” with human norm it would not be the sign it is was performed to be, and neither would the line of Solomon been kept off the throne.

So you're okay with Jesus being the ONLY human ever conceived by a human mother, but without a human father? And not only are you okay with it, but you think this abnormal occurance was necessary for the birth of Jesus to be the sign it was performed to be?

Yet you won't consider that Jesus could have existed prior to being conceived in the womb of a human mother?

So abnormal occurances are okay with you, as long as the particular occurance in question doesn't damper your doctrine? Is that it?

Hmmmmm………………..

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 27 2013,00:39)

Lk 1:15 ………he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth. how can some one be filled by what he his ?

It's really just that simple, isn't it Pierre?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 27 2013,00:52)

T, I did my own research and there are manuscripts that do say deeds and certain deem them more reliable.

Okay Kerwin.  You may disregard my other post to you on this subject.  (I usually answer posts chronologically, so I addressed your first post before reading the second one.)

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 27 2013,12:38)

I choose to believe the Word of God, which declared Jesus was conceived in the inner parts of a virgin.

I find it interesting that Kerwin has no problem with people being BORN again, but draws the line at being CONCEIVED again.

On judgement day, make sure you explain to Jesus that his teaching to Nicodemus was faulty, Kerwin. Tell Jesus that a person can only be born once, okay?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 27 2013,13:08)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2013,09:37) Also Kerwin, I await your answer about 1 John 2:1-2.  Who is the son of God that was the propitiation for our sins? Mike, Offhand the only begotten Son can either be a] An animation of the Holy Spirit b] Jesus Christ

Kerwin,

No matter how you translate the “genes” part of “monogenes”, the “mono” part still means “ONLY”.

Can God have two “ONLY begotten sons”? Is Jesus the BROTHER of the Holy Spirit?

Come on, man.

Face it. You're stumped here. As well you should be, Kerwin.

Jesus is the ONLY “only begotten Son of God”. The Holy Spirit of God is not God's “SON”. If it is, then show me the scripture where the Holy Spirit calls Jehovah “Father”. Or the scripture where Jehovah calls the Spirit “Son”.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 27 2013,19:31)

………the Holy Spirit (also known as the eternal spirit Son of God)……..

Scripture, please?

[mikeboll64]

It seems this thread has gone WAY off topic.  We started off trying to figure out who “the Word” was in John 1.

We were moving along just fine until we all realized that the Word is the one who actually dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.

At that point, it seems the non-preexisters didn't want to discuss the similarities between “Jesus” and “the Word” anymore.  (Like John the Baptist saying the EXACT SAME THING about “the Word” in verse 15 as he said about “Jesus” in verse 30.)  I had MANY more similarities to discuss with you all, but you have gone off into many different directions.  (Some of you have gone as far as to claim that God's Holy Spirit is “the only begotten Son of God” – just so you don't have to give up your non-preexistence doctrine.  How sad.)

Anyway, let me know when you are ready to discuss the many things said about the Word in John 1, that are also said elsewhere in scripture about Jesus.  (Of course I already know this post will go ignored, because you guys don't really want the TRUTH, do you?  Instead, you are comfortable with what you already believe, and don't want to change. Again, how sad.)

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2013,10:18)

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 27 2013,00:02) I would be a fool to follow something different than what has been shown to me. Where would it lead me? i tell you, nowhere! I sense a little hostility in that post, 2B.  But that's okay.  I'm used to it by now.  It seems that when you show people actual scriptures that contradict the belief they're already comforable with, they get a little testy with the messenger.   As long as you're okay with claiming that the Holy Spirit WASN'T begotten, but it IS God's only begotten Son – what more can I say? I thought I was helping by pointing out how irrational that understanding was. Sorry to have offended.

Mike, no, frustrated more than anything..

I also had to re sink into my mind the truth I knew of the eternal state of the Holy Spirit of God, rather than the teaching of man that I had polluted my understanding with due to the reading of external literature over the past week

God bless.

[2besee]

Yes can we please all get back on topic,
Thank you.

[2besee]

I am looking into something at the moment regarding Genesis and the creation of man. So, will post that when I am done studying.

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