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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 27 2013,01:53) ED J………..True, but consider who cannonized the bible, “the Catholic Chuch” hardly a church capable of gathering and connonizing truth. Ed j……..There are other enspiried book that were deliberately left out of our bibles you do know that right brother.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………….gene
Hi Gene,An example of an inspired book is:
The FIRST EPISTLE of CLEMENT to the CORINTHIANS. ,
1Clement is a MUST read for all Christians. (Link)I have been posting it slowly at that link;
I also provide a link to it online as well.Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (2besee @ Jan. 26 2013,19:52) Is that a bit odd?
The earliest church accepted Hermes despite the “Adoptionist” type of Cristology.
2besee……….I also tend to believe in “adoptionist” view. because God can not Create God, in order to do that, the created God would have to have “existed for ever” as God did and so it would be impossible to bring into existence a new God , the new God would have just been created, could not have existed forever right?I believe that the Spirit of God the Father was “IN” Jesus , just as Jesus said “IT” Was. I also believe Jesus was sent out into the World after his Baptism and receiving of the HOLY SPIRIT at the Jordan River, which made him the First begotten Son of God from mankind into the kingdom of God and all of that was through an adoption process of a man who came into existence as a born human Being. Jesus the Christ.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 27 2013,02:11) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 27 2013,01:53) ED J………..True, but consider who cannonized the bible, “the Catholic Chuch” hardly a church capable of gathering and connonizing truth. Ed j……..There are other enspiried book that were deliberately left out of our bibles you do know that right brother.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………….gene
Hi Gene,An example of an inspired book is:
The FIRST EPISTLE of CLEMENT to the CORINTHIANS. ,
1Clement is a MUST read for all Christians. (Link)I have been posting it slowly at that link;
I also provide a link to it online as well.Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
ED J…………..I haven read that yet, maybe i will check it out brother, I have read the Book of Thomas and i do beleive it to be othenic, I think there may be a lot out there left out of our present scriptures that could help clearfy thing.peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene
Quote (2besee @ Jan. 26 2013,15:08) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 26 2013,22:00) 2be Very good,that is a good selection ,now can you tell me if the holy spirit his a being
Or not
From those scriptures you showed me
Yes the Holy Spirit is a being but the Holy Spirit is God — a part of God,
Do not think like men completely because we are talking here about God who is much much much more than man!
Think: If God is so powerful……… would his Spirit also be unlike ours in power and being?Quote If the answer is not ,then what is it that could be send by God and to be in a person T, SPIRIT, Holy Spirit.
2beeyou give me your opinion ONLY ON THE FACT THAT IT SAYS THE WORD “SPIRIT” IS THAT RIGHT
Mike,
It is written:
Matthew 11:18-19
King James Version (KJV)18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.Who are the two examples of children of Wisdom?
Who is Wisdom in relation to Jesus?
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 26 2013,01:10) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2013,10:01)
1 John 2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Surely this scripture leaves no doubt to which Son of God was the propitiation for our sins, right?
Mike,It did not shoot a hole though the argument…………….
And what about this other scripture above? Doesn't 1 John 2:1-2 prove that Jesus is the son of God who came as a propitiation for our sins?Kerwin, I've read your recent discussions with jammin. I can tell that you are rolling your eyes back in your head at some of the completely asinine things he claims. But you and jammin are two peas in a pod.
See, he has started his scriptural journey with the pre-conceived notion that Jesus IS the very God Almighty that he is the Son OF. And because of this pre-conceived notion, he reads the scriptures with such a slant that he is willing to FORCE scriptures into teaching what he WANTS them to teach…….. scriptures that don't even come close to teaching what he WANTS them to teach.
He tries to FORCE Phil 2:6 into teaching that Jesus is God Himself – despite the CLEAR and OBVIOUS fact that it teaches nothing of the sort.
He tries to FORCE John 1:18 into teaching that Jesus is God Himself – despite the CLEAR and OBVIOUS fact that it teaches nothing of the sort.
He does this with many scriptures, as I think you would agree.
But how are you any different than him? You have started your scriptural journey with the pre-conceived notion that Jesus was never anything but a human being – despite the MANY scriptures that teach otherwise. And because of this pre-conceived notion, you also read the scriptures with such a slant that you are willing to FORCE the scriptures into teaching what you WANT them to teach.
And just like you roll your eyes at many of jammin's asinine twistings of scripture, many of us roll our eyes at your asinine twistings of scripture.
Do you realize that, because of your personal desire for Jesus to have not pre-existed his flesh, you have not only twisted the Holy Spirit of God into the SON of God – something that is not taught in any scripture – but also twisted some scriptures that are CLEARLY speaking of Jesus (the REAL “only begotten Son of God”), FORCING them to be speaking about this “OTHER” only begotten son that God supposedly has. And all this for what, Kerwin? Just to FORCE the scriptures into teaching what you WANT them to teach – despite the CLEAR and OBVIOUS fact that they don't actually teach what you WANT them to teach?
I believe you need to evaluate your actions, and the PERSONAL desire that leads you to these actions.
At any rate, please directly address 1 John 2:1-2 for me. Doesn't that scripture make it OBVIOUSLY CLEAR that Jesus is the one who came as a propitiation for our sins? YES or NO?
Quote (2besee @ Jan. 26 2013,02:33) Luke 4
[1] And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit……
If the Holy Spirit can be IN the only begotten Son of God, doesn't it prove that the Holy Spirit is NOT the only begotten Son of God?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 26 2013,10:08) I believe that the Spirit of God the Father was “IN” Jesus……..
I think we all believe that, Gene. But which one of the two was the “only begotten Son of God”? The Spirit? Or Jesus?Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 26 2013,12:18) Who are the two examples of children of Wisdom?
Actually, it is thought that the original of Matthew 11:19 said, “Wisdom is vindicated by her DEEDS”.It says “children” in the parallel teaching of Luke 7:35, and it is thought that later scribes changed “deeds” to “children” in Matthew, preferring the more animate “offspring” reading.
At any rate, the statement is a general one – not applying only to John and Jesus. It means that wisdom is eventually proved to be right by those who apply wisdom in their lives. Ie: Live your life according to wisdom, and good things will happen, thereby vindicating the wisdom by which you lived your life.
What point would you like to make with this scripture?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2013,00:37) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 26 2013,01:10) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2013,10:01)
1 John 2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Surely this scripture leaves no doubt to which Son of God was the propitiation for our sins, right?
Mike,It did not shoot a hole though the argument…………….
And what about this other scripture above? Doesn't 1 John 2:1-2 prove that Jesus is the son of God who came as a propitiation for our sins?Kerwin, I've read your recent discussions with jammin. I can tell that you are rolling your eyes back in your head at some of the completely asinine things he claims. But you and jammin are two peas in a pod.
See, he has started his scriptural journey with the pre-conceived notion that Jesus IS the very God Almighty that he is the Son OF. And because of this pre-conceived notion, he reads the scriptures with such a slant that he is willing to FORCE scriptures into teaching what he WANTS them to teach…….. scriptures that don't even come close to teaching what he WANTS them to teach.
He tries to FORCE Phil 2:6 into teaching that Jesus is God Himself – despite the CLEAR and OBVIOUS fact that it teaches nothing of the sort.
He tries to FORCE John 1:18 into teaching that Jesus is God Himself – despite the CLEAR and OBVIOUS fact that it teaches nothing of the sort.
He does this with many scriptures, as I think you would agree.
But how are you any different than him? You have started your scriptural journey with the pre-conceived notion that Jesus was never anything but a human being – despite the MANY scriptures that teach otherwise. And because of this pre-conceived notion, you also read the scriptures with such a slant that you are willing to FORCE the scriptures into teaching what you WANT them to teach.
And just like you roll your eyes at many of jammin's asinine twistings of scripture, many of us roll our eyes at your asinine twistings of scripture.
Do you realize that, because of your personal desire for Jesus to have not pre-existed his flesh, you have not only twisted the Holy Spirit of God into the SON of God – something that is not taught in any scripture – but also twisted some scriptures that are CLEARLY speaking of Jesus (the REAL “only begotten Son of God”), FORCING them to be speaking about this “OTHER” only begotten son that God supposedly has. And all this for what, Kerwin? Just to FORCE the scriptures into teaching what you WANT them to teach – despite the CLEAR and OBVIOUS fact that they don't actually teach what you WANT them to teach?
I believe you need to evaluate your actions, and the PERSONAL desire that leads you to these actions.
At any rate, please directly address 1 John 2:1-2 for me. Doesn't that scripture make it OBVIOUSLY CLEAR that Jesus is the one who came as a propitiation for our sins? YES or NO?
Mike,Why do you see the kind of angels in Philippians 2:6?
It seems better than claiming that there is more than one of the kind Jehovah, as Jammin infers, but Jehovah is not of the kind angel.
Jehovah is not created and so his body does not consist of that which is created. The kind angels are created and so their bodies consist of that which is created.
Why do you choose to believe that which is created exists as the same kind as he who is not created?
As for me, I realized that Jesus did not preexist his being formed in Mary's womb after I realized he was conceived there. Conception is the beginning of life for humans and other creations of God. The same people that insist Jesus preexists would not think the same of any other human they were told was conceived. I am not going to be inconsistent like them.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2013,01:08) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 26 2013,12:18) Who are the two examples of children of Wisdom?
Actually, it is thought that the original of Matthew 11:19 said, “Wisdom is vindicated by her DEEDS”.It says “children” in the parallel teaching of Luke 7:35, and it is thought that later scribes changed “deeds” to “children” in Matthew, preferring the more animate “offspring” reading.
At any rate, the statement is a general one – not applying only to John and Jesus. It means that wisdom is eventually proved to be right by those who apply wisdom in their lives. Ie: Live your life according to wisdom, and good things will happen, thereby vindicating the wisdom by which you lived your life.
What point would you like to make with this scripture?
Mike,Scripture is known to animate concepts like Wisdom.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 27 2013,03:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2013,01:08) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 26 2013,12:18) Who are the two examples of children of Wisdom?
Actually, it is thought that the original of Matthew 11:19 said, “Wisdom is vindicated by her DEEDS”.It says “children” in the parallel teaching of Luke 7:35, and it is thought that later scribes changed “deeds” to “children” in Matthew, preferring the more animate “offspring” reading.
At any rate, the statement is a general one – not applying only to John and Jesus. It means that wisdom is eventually proved to be right by those who apply wisdom in their lives. Ie: Live your life according to wisdom, and good things will happen, thereby vindicating the wisdom by which you lived your life.
What point would you like to make with this scripture?
Mike,Scripture is known to animate concepts like Wisdom.
kQuote Matthew 11:19 said, “Wisdom is vindicated by her DEEDS”. do you know why this is more accurate than your version
(children)Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 27 2013,03:05) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2013,00:37) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 26 2013,01:10) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2013,10:01)
1 John 2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Surely this scripture leaves no doubt to which Son of God was the propitiation for our sins, right?
Mike,It did not shoot a hole though the argument…………….
And what about this other scripture above? Doesn't 1 John 2:1-2 prove that Jesus is the son of God who came as a propitiation for our sins?Kerwin, I've read your recent discussions with jammin. I can tell that you are rolling your eyes back in your head at some of the completely asinine things he claims. But you and jammin are two peas in a pod.
See, he has started his scriptural journey with the pre-conceived notion that Jesus IS the very God Almighty that he is the Son OF. And because of this pre-conceived notion, he reads the scriptures with such a slant that he is willing to FORCE scriptures into teaching what he WANTS them to teach…….. scriptures that don't even come close to teaching what he WANTS them to teach.
He tries to FORCE Phil 2:6 into teaching that Jesus is God Himself – despite the CLEAR and OBVIOUS fact that it teaches nothing of the sort.
He tries to FORCE John 1:18 into teaching that Jesus is God Himself – despite the CLEAR and OBVIOUS fact that it teaches nothing of the sort.
He does this with many scriptures, as I think you would agree.
But how are you any different than him? You have started your scriptural journey with the pre-conceived notion that Jesus was never anything but a human being – despite the MANY scriptures that teach otherwise. And because of this pre-conceived notion, you also read the scriptures with such a slant that you are willing to FORCE the scriptures into teaching what you WANT them to teach.
And just like you roll your eyes at many of jammin's asinine twistings of scripture, many of us roll our eyes at your asinine twistings of scripture.
Do you realize that, because of your personal desire for Jesus to have not pre-existed his flesh, you have not only twisted the Holy Spirit of God into the SON of God – something that is not taught in any scripture – but also twisted some scriptures that are CLEARLY speaking of Jesus (the REAL “only begotten Son of God”), FORCING them to be speaking about this “OTHER” only begotten son that God supposedly has. And all this for what, Kerwin? Just to FORCE the scriptures into teaching what you WANT them to teach – despite the CLEAR and OBVIOUS fact that they don't actually teach what you WANT them to teach?
I believe you need to evaluate your actions, and the PERSONAL desire that leads you to these actions.
At any rate, please directly address 1 John 2:1-2 for me. Doesn't that scripture make it OBVIOUSLY CLEAR that Jesus is the one who came as a propitiation for our sins? YES or NO?
Mike,Why do you see the kind of angels in Philippians 2:6?
It seems better than claiming that there is more than one of the kind Jehovah, as Jammin infers, but Jehovah is not of the kind angel.
Jehovah is not created and so his body does not consist of that which is created. The kind angels are created and so their bodies consist of that which is created.
Why do you choose to believe that which is created exists as the same kind as he who is not created?
As for me, I realized that Jesus did not preexist his being formed in Mary's womb after I realized he was conceived there. Conception is the beginning of life for humans and other creations of God. The same people that insist Jesus preexists would not think the same of any other human they were told was conceived. I am not going to be inconsistent like them.
kQuote As for me, I realized that Jesus did not preexist his being formed in Mary's womb after I realized he was conceived there. Conception is the beginning of life for humans and other creations of God. The same people that insist Jesus preexists would not think the same of any other human they were told was conceived. I am not going to be inconsistent like them. but scriptures are not saying CONCEIVED, AS IN THE REPRODUCTION OF A MAN AND A WOMEN CONCEIVING AN OFFSPRING ,THIS ONLY BELONG TO MALE AND FEMALE ,
IN THE CASE OF CHRIST THEIR HIS NO MALE HUMAN ,ONLY A HUMAN WOMEN ,AND WE KNOW THAT A WOMEN CAN BE A SURROGATE MOTHER TO SOMEONE ELSE CHILD ,THINGS THEY DID NOT KNEW AT THAT TIME ,
this is why scriptures are mainly saying ;because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.Mat;1-20
see it says not that she conceives but WHAT HIS CONCEIVED
not of her ,Mat 1;18 she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
see here it says WAS FOUND TO BE WITH CHILD
Lk 1:30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God.
Lk 1:31 You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name JesusSEE ;FOUND FAVOR WITH GOD ;;
AND BE FOUND WITH CHILD ; THIS SHOWS THAT IT HIS NOT HER CHILD SHE HIS CARRYING ,BUT OF SOMEONE ELSE ,THIS IS ALSO MAKE SCRIPTURES TO BE TRUE ,;LK 2:11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
LK 2:19 But Mary treasured all these things, pondering them in her heart
MARY KNEW THAT IT WAS NOT HER CHILD THAT SHE AD CARRIED BUT GOD'S ONE AND SHE DID NOR KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT BESIDE WHAT THE ANGELS HAD TOLD HER OR WHAT SHE HEARD ,
LK 2:28 then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said,
LK 2:29 “Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace,
According to Your word;
LK 2:30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation,
LK 2:31 Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples,
LK 2:32 A LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”
LK 2:33 And His father and mother were amazed at the things which were being said about Him.DO WE HAVE NOW TO ASSUME THAT JOSEPH AND MARY ARE THE TRUE PARENTS OF CHRIST
LOOK IT IS SAID RIGHT THERE IN VERSE 33, LK 2:48 When they saw Him, they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, “ Son, why have You treated us this way? Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously looki
ng for You.”
LK 2:49 And He said to them, “Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father’s house?”
LK 2:50 But they did not understand the statement which He had made to them.ARE YOU HIS PARENTS ,??? KERWIN 'not understanding what scriptures are saying “”
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 26 2013,15:05) Jehovah is not created and so his body does not consist of that which is created.
Jehovah is “spirit”, right? Are the angels also “spirit”, Kerwin? That is a lame point……. actually, a non-point.Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 26 2013,15:05) Why do you choose to believe that which is created exists as the same kind as he who is not created?
Didn't God create man in his image? Didn't He later say, after Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, that “they have become like us”?Why would you narrow the umbrella to the point that being “like” God means that one is EXACTLY like God, down to the smallest detail?
Can the words, “he was existing in the form of God” simply mean that Jesus was existing as a spirit being, just as God was existing as a spirit being? Do those words HAVE TO mean “every single thing God was, Jesus was too”? Of course not.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 26 2013,15:05) Conception is the beginning of life for humans and other creations of God. The same people that insist Jesus preexists would not think the same of any other human they were told was conceived. I am not going to be inconsistent like them.
You can't be serious, Kerwin. Are you seriously saying that the sole reason you won't believe Christ pre-existed, is because he was “conceived” in a human woman's womb?Wow.
Now there's a man who is going to keep believing what he already believes – even if all he has left is the most microscopic reason there is! 
Are you saying that God couldn't have created Jesus before the ages, and then CAUSED him to be “conceived” of a woman at a later time, to serve His purpose?
Are you saying that if scripture said God DID create children of Abraham out of stones, you wouldn't believe that scripture because human beings aren't GENERALLY created from stones? Because this is exactly what you're doing here and now. You are refusing to believe MANY scriptures, or twist them in laughably nonsensical ways, because they teach of something that isn't “the norm”.
Well I've got news for you, Kerwin: 50% of the events described in the scriptures aren't “the norm”.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 26 2013,15:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2013,01:08) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 26 2013,12:18) Who are the two examples of children of Wisdom?
Actually, it is thought that the original of Matthew 11:19 said, “Wisdom is vindicated by her DEEDS”.It says “children” in the parallel teaching of Luke 7:35, and it is thought that later scribes changed “deeds” to “children” in Matthew, preferring the more animate “offspring” reading.
At any rate, the statement is a general one – not applying only to John and Jesus. It means that wisdom is eventually proved to be right by those who apply wisdom in their lives. Ie: Live your life according to wisdom, and good things will happen, thereby vindicating the wisdom by which you lived your life.
What point would you like to make with this scripture?
Mike,Scripture is known to animate concepts like Wisdom.
Yep. And sometimes, “wisdom” simply means “wisdom”. What's your point?Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 26 2013,16:18) but scriptures are not saying CONCEIVED, AS IN THE REPRODUCTION OF A MAN AND A WOMEN CONCEIVING AN OFFSPRING ,THIS ONLY BELONG TO MALE AND FEMALE ,
Good point, Pierre. Perhaps Kerwin doesn't mind being “inconsistent” when he speaks of the abnormality of Jesus having a human mother, but not a human father.What say you, Kerwin? Is it okay that this aspect of Jesus' birth is “inconsistent” with human births, as we know them?
Also Kerwin,
I await your answer about 1 John 2:1-2. Who is the son of God that was the propitiation for our sins?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 25 2013,15:13)
So then “the Word”, who became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten, could not possibly have been the Holy Spirit, right?I have already given you my view, Mike, and I have already answered this question many times it is not my fault if you do not accept it. What I believe is what I believe and I will not be changing my view as to me and to everybody here, what they believe is their truth. Do you expect us to all conform to you and a few others “truths”? Well, sorry, not me. I will stick with what GOD has shown me, not what man has shown me!
I would be a fool to follow something different than what has been shown to me. Where would it lead me? i tell you, nowhere!
Jeremiah 17
[5] Thus says the LORD:
“Cursed is the man who trusts in man
and makes flesh his arm,
whose heart turns away from the LORD.
[6] He is like a shrub in the desert,
and shall not see any good come.
He shall dwell in the parched places of the wilderness,
in an uninhabited salt land.
[7] “Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD,
whose trust is the LORD.
[8] He is like a tree planted by water,
that sends out its roots by the stream,
and does not fear when heat comes,
for its leaves remain green,
and is not anxious in the year of drought,
for it does not cease to bear fruit.”
[9] The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately corrupt;
who can understand it?
[10] “I the LORD search the mind
and try the heart,
to give to every man according to his ways,
according to the fruit of his doings.”I have been down quite a few roads.
I have searched and I have found.
I have been led after, down the wrong road
I have followed man
I have become lost
And now I am found again
Praise be to my God
Through His Son Christ Jesus.And now you try to lead others down your path and belief?
Why?
Where is the fruit in that?As to your question,
Quote So then “the Word”, who became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten, could not possibly have been the Holy Spirit, right? Anything is possible with God but it is not possible with man.
Why couldn't God have a Son who is called the Holy Spirit and is also a part of God??WHY NOT??
Could you answer that question?Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 27 2013,03:35) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 27 2013,03:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2013,01:08) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 26 2013,12:18) Who are the two examples of children of Wisdom?
Actually, it is thought that the original of Matthew 11:19 said, “Wisdom is vindicated by her DEEDS”.It says “children” in the parallel teaching of Luke 7:35, and it is thought that later scribes changed “deeds” to “children” in Matthew, preferring the more animate “offspring” reading.
At any rate, the statement is a general one – not applying only to John and Jesus. It means that wisdom is eventually proved to be right by those who apply wisdom in their lives. Ie: Live your life according to wisdom, and good things will happen, thereby vindicating the wisdom by which you lived your life.
What point would you like to make with this scripture?
Mike,Scripture is known to animate concepts like Wisdom.
kQuote Matthew 11:19 said, “Wisdom is vindicated by her DEEDS”. do you know why this is more accurate than your version
(children)
T,Because it is rumor that you wish to hear. I have not even seen evidence that such a manuscript exists, much less that it is the original wording.
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