In the Beginning

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 22 2013,14:28)

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 23 2013,09:08) Mike, so if according to you, another god made the earth too, Correction, according to you and others, through. (same thing).

I disagree that it is the “same thing”, 2B.

Tertullian wrote:  He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.

And Paul wrote:  there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

I see the difference in all things coming FROM God, and THROUGH Jesus.  Tertullian clearly saw this difference as well.  Apparently, you don't yet see it.

(As a side note:  Whatever is included in the “all things” that came FROM God, are included in the “all things” that came THROUGH Jesus.  So if angels came FROM God, then angels came THROUGH Jesus.  If the heavens and earth came FROM God, then the heavens and earth came THROUGH Jesus. Colossians 1:16 actually teaches these things word for word.

And t8 just posted Jude 1:25, which says that power and majesty are and have been TO our God, THROUGH Jesus Christ, now, before the ages, and forever.  It makes perfect sense that Jesus was around “before the ages”, since Hebrews 1:2 tells us that those ages were in fact created THROUGH Jesus Christ.)

[terraricca]

Mike

this is another of those scriptures were it says :

:1Ch 17:3 And it came to pass the same night, that the word of God came to Nathan, saying,
1Ch 17:4 Go and tell David my servant, Thus saith the LORD, Thou shalt not build me an house to dwell in:
1Ch 17:5 For I have not dwelt in an house since the day that I brought up Israel unto this day; but have gone from tent to tent, and from one tabernacle to another.

here it shows clearly that the one that is called THE WORD OF GOD went to Nathan in person and talk to him…

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 20 2013,17:56)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2013,05:34) Gene, Do you believe Jesus is good? YES or NO? Mike, lets let Jesus answer this for you OK.? Why callest thou me good for there is only one that is good and that is God.

Okay Gene.

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Matthew 5:45
He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Matthew 12:35
The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

So what's the answer now, Gene? Jesus clearly said that ONLY God was good, right? Yet he called himself “the good shepherd”, and spoke about certain “good” people.

In which verse do you suppose Jesus was LYING, Gene?

[Lightenup]

Hi 2besee,
What Mike said in the above post on the top of this page, ultimately amounts to saying that Jesus directly created all things and the Father indirectly created all things. Mike thinks that Jesus is the only thing that the Father directly created even though the Bible says that Jesus is the only 'begotten' (not created) Son, not the only directly created son/thing. I don't think that he realizes or appreciates that the Son directly created all things.

[terraricca]

Ro 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

this is one more scripture from the KJV

[mikeboll64]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2013,18:28)

Are you ready to accept the scriptures that clearly call Jesus a god, while understanding that although he is a god (mighty one), he is the THE God, Jehovah?

Thank goodness that you all realized my words above were a typo!

Of course I meant to say, “that although he is a god (mighty one), he is the NOT THE God, Jehovah?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2013,19:05)

Hi 2besee, I don't think that he realizes or appreciates that the Son directly created all things.

Go get her, 2B!    Tell her who the scriptures say created all things.

Kathi, read the words of Tertullian once again.  There is ONE who created, and ANOTHER through whom the thing was created.

There is only one scripture in the whole Bible that suggest Jesus “created” anything at all.  That scripture is John 2:15, which tells how Jesus “made” a whip from some cords.

Other than that one scripture, Jesus is never said to have “made” anything at all.

Kathi, you'll have to peddle your Trinitarian wares elsewhere.  There are no believers in two Almighty Gods on this thread.  You are welcome, however, to stay and help me convince these knuckleheads (jokingly, of course) that Jesus pre-existed his flesh.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 22 2013,19:01)

Mike this is another of those scriptures were it says : :1Ch 17:3 And it came to pass the same night, that the word of God came to Nathan, saying, 1Ch 17:4 Go and tell David my servant, Thus saith the LORD, Thou shalt not build me an house to dwell in: 1Ch 17:5 For I have not dwelt in an house since the day that I brought up Israel unto this day; but have gone from tent to tent, and from one tabernacle to another. here it shows clearly that the one that is called THE WORD OF GOD went to Nathan in person and talk to him…

I disagree, Pierre.  While this could refer to one of God's spokesman as His “word”:

1.  It doesn't mean this particular spokesman was Jesus.  (See Hebrews 1:1-2, where it says God only spoke to us through His son in “these last days”.)

2.  It most likely refers to the “instructions/command” of God, which came to Nathan in an undisclosed manner.  These particular instructions, that are listed in the following verses you posted, are the “word of God” that came to Nathan.  These words/instructions could have come to him through an angel of God, or perhaps through a vision.

[Lightenup]

Mike,
Didn't you say that the Father only directly created one thing?

[mikeboll64]

Yes. And by that statement, I meant that Jesus is the only thing that wasn't created BY the Father THROUGH Jesus. All other things were created through Jesus.

Of course you know this is how I believe, and you know I never meant to imply that Jesus was the “direct” creator of all other things.

[Lightenup]

So, Mike, when you say all other things were created through Jesus, then you must admit that all other things were not directly created by the Father. Do you see that?

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2013,07:22)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 22 2013,19:01) Mike this is another of those scriptures were it says : :1Ch 17:3 And it came to pass the same night, that the word of God came to Nathan, saying, 1Ch 17:4 Go and tell David my servant, Thus saith the LORD, Thou shalt not build me an house to dwell in: 1Ch 17:5 For I have not dwelt in an house since the day that I brought up Israel unto this day; but have gone from tent to tent, and from one tabernacle to another. here it shows clearly that the one that is called THE WORD OF GOD went to Nathan in person and talk to him… I disagree, Pierre.  While this could refer to one of God's spokesman as His “word”: 1.  It doesn't mean this particular spokesman was Jesus.  (See Hebrews 1:1-2, where it says God only spoke to us through His son in “these last days”.) 2.  It most likely refers to the “instructions/command” of God, which came to Nathan in an undisclosed manner.  These particular instructions, that are listed in the following verses you posted, are the “word of God” that came to Nathan.  These words/instructions could have come to him through an angel of God, or perhaps through a vision.

agreed mike

good point

[GeneBalthrop]

To All…….whoso ever believes that christ came not ,”IN” the FLESH is Antichrist

Let me paraphrase this for you all, whoso ever does not believes that “the CHRISTO'S” came in the flesh man Jesus is Antichristos. . That Christo's or “ANOINTING ” Spirit was “in” the flesh man Jesus. That Christo's or anointing spirit is what the man Jesus received into him at the Jordan River.

It still amazes me that some here still can't see that God the Father who is Spirit was indeed (IN) Jesus by his Holy Spirit He received at the Jordan River when John baptized him.

Peace and love to you all……………………………gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 23 2013,10:31)

To All…….whoso ever believes that christ came not ,”IN” the FLESH is Antichrist Let me paraphrase this for you all, whoso ever does not  believes that “the CHRISTO'S” came in the flesh man Jesus is Antichristos.  . That Christo's or “ANOINTING ” Spirit was “in” the flesh man Jesus. That Christo's or anointing spirit is what the man Jesus received into him at the Jordan River. It still amazes me that some here still can't see that God the Father who is Spirit was indeed (IN) Jesus by his Holy Spirit He received at the Jordan River when John baptized him. Peace and love to you all……………………………gene

So Christ was a morphed man

HAlf. Man and half god

Is this what you mean

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2013,12:44)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 22 2013,11:45) I met Mike and so hope was made flesh. Okay, good.  Now at least you are using the word “was” in your sample.  Can you find me an example from anywhere in history where someone wrote similar words that would give creedence to your example sentence?

I have a good example. Two people meet each other over the Internet. One day they meet in the flesh. They knew each other by their words… and then one day their words become flesh.

It happens all of the time Mike,

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2013,12:59)

Hi 2B, First of all, read Jeremiah 10 in context.

I did (read Jeremiah 10 in context), which is how I found that particular verse. I was looking for something unrelated (to do with Christmas).

Quote

Secondly, understand that angels of Jehovah are called gods in scripture (as you yourself have pointed out in this thread).  Do you really think those faithful angels of God, who did not create the heavens and the earth, will perish from under heaven?  Do you think it is these good, faithful “gods” that Jehovah is talking about in that passage?  YES or NO, please.

Could you show me where exactly it says that 'Angels are called “gods”'? I must have missed it, thank you.

Quote

Quote ………and there was no other god beside Him . Remind me of what scripture says those words.

Remind you of what scripture says “and there was no other god beside Him”, again?

Okay.

Isaiah 44.

[6] Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel
and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
“I am the first and I am the last;
besides me there is no god.
[7] Who is like me? Let him proclaim it,
let him declare and set it forth before me.
Who has announced from of old the things to come?
Let them tell us what is yet to be.
[8] Fear not, nor be afraid;
have I not told you from of old and declared it?
And you are my witnesses!
Is there a God besides me?
There is no Rock; I know not any.“

[24] Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
who formed you from the womb:
“I am the LORD, who made all things,
who stretched out the heavens alone,
who spread out the earth — Who was with me? —
[25] who frustrates the omens of liars,
and makes fools of diviners;
who turns wise men back,
and makes their knowledge foolish.

Would you like me to post more?

[2besee]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 23 2013,13:02)

Mike, men do not want to believe that God is eternal and his son came from him. The Antichrist spirit denies the son, so people under that influence will deny the son in word and deed. Even Islam does this. People will argue that Jesus is God, a 200 year old created man, and a number of other excuses to deny that truth that God is from everlasting to everlasting and that all things were made by this God through his first born son, who has first place in all things. At times it seems weird that men cannot see what scripture is saying, but when you understand that there are spirits involved and that the chief of these spirit blinds the minds of unbelievers, then it becomes apparent that all manner of opposition to scripture is a given. But remember, that they cannot with their mouth utter these great words. Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

t8, do you want me to do a study on what the antichrist actually is?

I will tomorrow.

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2013,13:26)

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 22 2013,14:19) Yet Mike, you say that 'God's word' which it says in the OT is spoken through 'God's own mouth', is another god. The word of God came to many people through various ways (Heb 1:1-2).  In fact, we can read the written word of God on a daily bases, if we choose to do so.   On the other hand, the Word of God is the title for God's main spokesman, Jesus Christ.   In most cases, when scripture says the word of God came to someone, it is talking about the “commands/instructions/prophesies” from God, that came to a person by varying means – sometimes from an angel of God, sometimes through a vision.  95% of the time in scripture, “the word of God” refers to these spoken words from God, that came to a prophet or whoever through various means. But in a few cases (John 1:1, 1:14, 1 John 1:1, Revelation 19:13), the phrase “the Word” doesn't refer to words that God relayed to someone else via angel or vision.  In those cases, it refers to God's main spokesman, Jesus Christ. Jesus has the title “the Word”, because he is God's main spokesperson.  Similarly, the King of Abyssinia had a spokesman back in the day who was called “Kal Hatze”, which means “the word of the king”. Sometimes, in the Hebrew scriptures, the word of God is also called “the mouth of God”.  And Aaron was made “the mouth of Moses” by God, right?  Doesn't “mouth”, in these cases, mean “spokesman”?  Yet the word “mouth” doesn't ALWAYS mean “spokesman”, right? It is the same with the word “word”.  Sometimes it just refers to a written or spoken word from anyone at all.   Other times, it is used poetically, like when God says He will send His word forth, and it will not come back to Him without accomplishing His purpose.  (That is a pretty way of saying, “The thing I just SAID would happen, definitely WILL happen the way I said it would!”) And still other times, it refers to God's spokesman, Jesus Christ.  It is only THESE LAST TIMES that “God's word” refers to another god, namely, Jesus Christ. Do you understand these things, 2B?

Quote

It is only THESE LAST TIMES that “God's word” refers to another god, namely, Jesus Christ.

So Jesus is “another god”, that seems quite insulting Mike.
Jesus is not just another god.
Jesus was the word made flesh.
Jesus was a man who could have sinned, He was tempted.
But He overcame.
And now He is in Heaven seated at the right hand side of the Father.
So what is Jesus now?

What I do know, Mike, is that God made the entire universe alone thorough His own Word and His own Spirit, and these are all a part of the one God, YHVH, our Father, and Jesus' Father. I also believe that the Holy Spirit is also known as the eternal Son of God. It is God's own spirit (not another “god”). Just as God's own Word is God's own Word, not “another god”. That is so funny that you think like that.

BTW, that verse that says that God would send His word from Heaven is not “poetic” and meaningless. Look deeper!

[Wakeup]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 23 2013,18:37)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2013,12:59) Hi 2B, First of all, read Jeremiah 10 in context. I did (read Jeremiah 10 in context), which is how I found that particular verse. I was looking for something unrelated (to do with Christmas). Quote Secondly, understand that angels of Jehovah are called gods in scripture (as you yourself have pointed out in this thread).  Do you really think those faithful angels of God, who did not create the heavens and the earth, will perish from under heaven?  Do you think it is these good, faithful “gods” that Jehovah is talking about in that passage?  YES or NO, please. Could you show me where exactly it says that 'Angels are called “gods”'? I must have missed it, thank you. Quote Quote ………and there was no other god beside Him . Remind me of what scripture says those words. Remind you of what scripture says “and there was no other god beside Him”, again? Okay. Isaiah 44. [6] Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. [7] Who is like me? Let him proclaim it, let him declare and set it forth before me. Who has announced from of old the things to come? Let them tell us what is yet to be. [8] Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.“ [24] Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who made all things, who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth — Who was with me? — [25] who frustrates the omens of liars, and makes fools of diviners; who turns wise men back, and makes their knowledge foolish. Would you like me to post more?

2Besee.

This is true;all is from God even his word,is from God.
But if God shared all his powers with his son;then his son also become as God, with equal powers.But he is still not his father.

If God gave you all his powers;you will be as God,but you are still not God,because your power is from him,given to you.

wakeup.

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2013,13:51)

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 22 2013,14:28) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 23 2013,09:08) Mike, so if according to you, another god made the earth too, Correction, according to you and others, through. (same thing). I disagree that it is the “same thing”, 2B. Tertullian wrote:  He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another. And Paul wrote:  there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. I see the difference in all things coming FROM God, and THROUGH Jesus.  Tertullian clearly saw this difference as well.  Apparently, you don't yet see it. (As a side note:  Whatever is included in the “all things” that came FROM God, are included in the “all things” that came THROUGH Jesus.  So if angels came FROM God, then angels came THROUGH Jesus.  If the heavens and earth came FROM God, then the heavens and earth came THROUGH Jesus.  Colossians 1:16 actually teaches these things word for word. And t8 just posted Jude 1:25, which says that power and majesty are and have been TO our God, THROUGH Jesus Christ, now, before the ages, and forever.  It makes perfect sense that Jesus was around “before the ages”, since Hebrews 1:2 tells us that those ages were in fact created THROUGH Jesus Christ.)

Hi Mike.
Tertullian? What date was that written?  

Remember the quote that I made a while back by 'St Irenaues', aprox 120AD?  

Please read it Mike, the whole thing…

Against Heresies (Book II, Chapter 2)
The world was not formed by angels, or by any other being, contrary to the will of the most high God, but was made by the Father through the Word.

“For this is a peculiarity of the pre-eminence of God, not to stand in need of other instruments for the creation of those things which are summoned into existence. His own Word is both suitable and sufficient for the formation of all things, even as John, the disciple of the Lord, declares regarding Him: “All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made.” John 1:3

Now, among the “all things” our world must be embraced. It too, therefore, was made by His Word, as Scripture tells us in the book of Genesis that He made all things connected with our world by His Word. David also expresses the same truth [when he says] “For He spoke, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created.” Whom, therefore, shall we believe as to the creation of the world— these heretics who have been mentioned that prate so foolishly and inconsistently on the subject, or the disciples of the Lord, and Moses, who was both a faithful servant of God and a prophet? He at first narrated the formation of the world in these words: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,” Genesis 1:1 and all other things in succession; but neither gods nor angels [had any share in the work].

Now, that this God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Paul the apostle also has declared, [saying,] “There is one God, the Father, who is above all, and through all things, and in us all.” I have indeed proved already that there is only one God; but I shall further demonstrate this from the apostles themselves, and from the discourses of the Lord. For what sort of conduct would it be, were we to forsake the utterances of the prophets, of the Lord, and of the apostles, that we might give heed to these persons, who speak not a word of sense?

The whole thing can be read here.

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