In the Beginning

[Ed J]

Hi Jammin,

Is Jesus the sword of the spirit?

 1. Yes
 2. No

Well, what is you answer.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[2besee]

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 27 2012,13:24)

Quote (2besee @ Dec. 27 2012,08:08) Quote (jammin @ Dec. 27 2012,05:40) do you believe that one of the names of Christ is THE WORD OF GOD? yes or no? Jammin, if you mean 'was the word of God one of the names of Jesus of Nazereth' then I would say 'the word of God was in Him' as an answer. therefore your answer is no? is that correct? you do not believe that the WORD OF GOD is the name of Christ? you are a false teacher boy if that's your belief. read rev 19.13 very well Revelation 19:13 New International Version (NIV) 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. do you understand english??? it says HIS NAME IS THE WORD OF GOD. study hard boy

Jammin,
I know the way that some of you Trinitarians are. You believe that anybody who denies that Jesus Christ was God come down in the flesh is the Antichrist. However, Scriptures tell us that God revealed from Heaven that Jesus was the Son of God. So who here denies that Jesus was the Son of God? Scriptures also tell us that the Antichrist is he who denies the Father and the Son. Who here denies the Father and the Son? John also says that the Antichrist denies that Jesus came in the Flesh. Do you know what 'In the Flesh' means, according to scripture? Flesh means Man.

If Jesus said to love the Father, is Jesus the Father to you?

How do you view the Father God, Jammin?

[2besee]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 27 2012,14:16)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 27 2012,10:42) Quote (2besee @ Dec. 26 2012,15:08) Quote (jammin @ Dec. 27 2012,05:40) do you believe that one of the names of Christ is THE WORD OF GOD? yes or no? Jammin, if you mean 'was the word of God one of the names of Jesus of Nazereth' then I would say 'the word of God was in Him' as an answer. So then your DIRECT answer to jammin would be: NO jammin, I don't think “The Word of God” is one of Christ's names in scripture. That definitely puts you in a VERY SMALL minority, 2B.  The vast majority of Christians, whether they be Trinitarian, Oneness, Arian, or other, believe that Jesus is most definitely the one referred to by that name in Rev 19:13. Hi Mike, Does popularity in a belief have any bearing to whether it is true or not? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed, that is true. The majority of Christianity also believes that our Father who is love would torture those who do not worship him forever and ever.

There is NO FEAR IN LOVE! (1 John 4)

[2besee]

Hi Jammin.

Jesus said 'WHY DO YOU CALL ME GOOD? none is good, SAVE ONE, THAT IS, GOD.'

Now we know that Jesus was the only righteous man, so Jesus WAS good. But even he said that there is one God and he here is separating himself as different than that one God, His Father.

Paul said 'There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus'.

Jesus was in the flesh (Man) but that which was in him was God (Holy Spirit).

[kerwin]

Mike,

Quote

Actually, because of the imperfect tense of “en”, it says the Word WAS…….  not IS…..

You are correct as far as what you say goes as expressing “was” in English progressive verbal aspect seems to be difficult. In order to do so we would have translate John 1:1-2 “As the Word was in the beginning, as the Word was God and as the Word was with God; as he was with God in the beginning” or possibly “In the beginning the Word was existing, the was existing as God and the Word was existing with God, he was existing with God in the beginning.”
Verse 4 also uses the Ancient Greek imperfect indicative verbal aspect and may look more like “as life was in him and as life was the light of men” or “in him life was existing and the life was existing as the life of men.”  

I am using the interlinear translation changed according to the advice from greek-language.com
The Aramaic Bible in plain English actually used a similar translation for John 1:1 but seems to have abandoned it in the clause “That Word was himself God” and afterwards.

John 1:1-4

1In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God. 2This One himself was at the origin with God. 3Everything was in his hand, and without him not even one thing existed of the things that existed. 4In him was The Life and The Life is The Light of men

I am unsure why most, if not all, Greek to English translations settled on a simple past to express the Greek imperfect “was” but doing so removes the sense of ongoing but past action that the Greek seems to intend.

Life was in the Word and still is even though the translators do not translate it as such.

Quote

Secondly, you should know better than to make the claim John states “the Word is God”, and use that as your “proof”, since you are well aware that “God” is only ONE of the TWO ways that line can be faithfully translated.

Your favored translation seems to be sound and valid as well and may have some merit as there are two words translated to God in John 1:1.  The first is theon and the second theos.  I do not know the difference.   Nevertheless God embodies his Word and is made flesh by dwelling in a human being through his Spirit.

Quote

So for me, God can both BE light, and be FILLED WITH light.  Do you agree?

God is Love and so filled with love.  God is the Lamp that will light the World.  So yes I do agree.

Quote

If the Word wasn't FULLY, 100% God Himself, then in what sense do you think John was saying the logos was THE very god he was with?

Jehovah gives concrete existence to his own Word by living according to it.  The Word is with God because everyone’s word is with them when it goes out of their mouth.

Quote

And can light be said to be IN someone who is also called “light”?

We already agreed this is so.

Quote

Kerwin, you are not even coming close to making a case that “the Word” in verse 1 is NOT “the light” from verse 7.

Actually it is not the same though like one of Jesus’ students the Word can be called the light and also be said to be filled with the light.  As you pointed out I made a technical error in crediting the Light and the Word he is in with creating, it is observed that creation was made through both the Word and the Light.  Being as the Word is the set to which the Light belongs the Word credited with its actions as the Light cannot act without the Word also acting.

Quote

You originally said you disagree because one thing was said to be IN the other, right?  Yet you still think they are both “God”, right?  Isn't that a little bit hypocritical of you?

That is not what I am saying
The Word is God’s utterance.
The Light is God’s righteousness or possibly faith since the connection  between the two is extremely tight.
The life is the reward for coming into the light  

Jesus was given the gift of the life in himself, John 5:26, and so I would say he is light and he has come into the world.  I believe John 12:46 agrees with my assessment.

[mikeboll64]

Kerwin,

You are speaking as a sensible person.  Whether or not we end up in agreement about the Word, I can not ask you for anything other than that.  

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2012,08:47)

I am unsure why most, if not all, Greek to English translations settled on a simple past to express the Greek imperfect “was” but doing so removes the sense of ongoing but past action that the Greek seems to intend.

From NETNotes:
The imperfect tense generally represents continual or repeated action. Where the present tense might indicate “they are asking,” the imperfect would indicate “they kept on asking.” In the case of the verb “to be,” however, the imperfect tense is used as a general past tense and does not carry the connotation of continual or repeated action.

The word “en” is the imperfect of “eimi”, which is the verb “to be”.  But I think we agree that just because it says the Word “was”, it doesn't necessarily mean the Word isn't still, right?  To say God WAS love is not to say He is no longer love, right?  So your point is noted.

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2012,08:47)

Your favored translation seems to be sound and valid as well and may have some merit as there are two words translated to God in John 1:1.

Hallelujah!  It's not as important to me that you AGREE WITH my favored translation as it is that you ACKNOWLEDGE my favored translation is a possibility.  “Sound”, “has merit” and “valid” is more than I could have hoped for.  

I don't know WHY that acknowledgment is so hard to come by on this site, since the facts of Greek to English translation are just that:  FACTS!  So thank you for the acknowledgment.  I realize that it doesn't mean “a god” is now YOUR favored translation.  

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2012,08:47)

Nevertheless God embodies his Word and is made flesh by dwelling in a human being through his Spirit.

God is never said to have been “made flesh” by any method at all, as far as I know.

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2012,08:47)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64) And can light be said to be IN someone who is also called “light”? We already agreed this is so.

Fantastic!  We are moving leaps and bounds now!  

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2012,08:47)

…..it is observed that creation was made through both the Word and the Light

And through Jesus (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)  

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2012,08:47)

Jesus was given the gift of the life in himself, John 5:26, and so I would say he is light and he has come into the world.  I believe John 12:46 agrees with my assessment.

Then we are in agreement once again. And we've already agreed that one who IS light can also have light IN him, right?

Therefore, John 1:6 and 7 could very well STILL be talking about the Word from verse 1, only calling him “light” this time – as 2B and I agree.

More to come………….

[mikeboll64]

It is noted that Kerwin believes the Word was the “utterance of God”, that not only happened to be with God in the beginning, but also was the very God it was with. It is further noted that Kerwin does not believe “the light” was “the utterance”, but that it was the “faithfulness” or “righteousness” of God that was in God's “utterance”.

It is also noted that Gene has not yet commented on verses 6 and 7, and that although Ed is apparently done building his holy city, and has opted to join into this discussion, he has yet to address the points of the exercise.

So far, 2B and I have agreed that verses 2-7 have “the Word” from verse 1 as their subject. Moving on……………

John 1:8
He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

It is my understanding that “HE” refers back to John the Baptist, and “the light” refers back to the Word.

Do we still agree, 2B? Ed? Gene?

[2besee]

Quote

It is my understanding that “HE” refers back to John the Baptist, and “the light” refers back to the Word. Do we still agree, 2B?  Ed?  Gene?

Mike, so far yes.

I think that we are making this more complicated than it needs to be, though.

This is the way that I see it (with my flawed human mind and with prayer): Gene, Kerwin, and EdJ, I would like your honest opinions on this please, also)…………….

Jesus was the body in which the Son of God dwelt. The Son of God is also called the Word of God and Eternal Spirit and this is God's own Word which is spoken from God's own mouth but is also called the Son of God. The Father and the Son are like us – we have human Fathers and Sons – but this is heavenly (flesh gives birth to flesh and spirit gives birth to Spirit – God is spirit and the Son is spirit) and the Son of God is the Spirit of God and the Spirit or Son knows every thought of God and it is through the Son (Holy Spirit Word of God) that everything was created. The Spirit Son of God is also God – as together they are one (just as we are one with our own thoughts and our own spirit though they are different parts to us making up the whole) and the Son of God/Word/Spirit is what was speaking through Jesus of Nazareth – Jesus being the perfect sinless body in which the Spirit/Word dwelt in.

So when Jesus spoke about himself; his mission, his coming down from heaven; his knowing the Father; his doing the Fathers works; his learning off the father, etc….This was the Spirit/Word/Son speaking through the Man Jesus of Nazareth. And this Spirit/Word/Son of God is ALSO GOD. just as our own words and spirit are us, though not in entirety.

When people say that Jesus was the Son of God, yes, He is the Son of God – the first begotten Son of God –  however, the Spirit Word Son of God is eternal and un-begotten. This Spirit/Word/Son of God is one with God. The Spirit/Word/Son is in the Father, and the Father is in the Spirit/Word/Son – together they are one.

And Jesus became one with them, and God's other begotten Sons and Daughters can also become one with them, when they too are drawn and begotten of God.  

So……?

[jammin]

Quote (2besee @ Dec. 27 2012,21:15)

Hi Jammin. Jesus said 'WHY DO YOU CALL ME GOOD? none is good, SAVE ONE, THAT IS, GOD.' Now we know that Jesus was the only righteous man, so Jesus WAS good. But even he said that there is one God and he here is separating himself as different than that one God, His Father. Paul said 'There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus'. Jesus was in the flesh (Man) but that which was in him was God (Holy Spirit).

your words are non sense. why? bec your belief is different from the bible. the bible said the WORD OF GOD is the name of Christ but you dont believe that. therefore, your other opinions are not welcome.

[jammin]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 27 2012,20:46)

Hi Jammin, Is Jesus the sword of the spirit?  1. Yes  2. No Well, what is you answer. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

give mt the verse and ill tell you my answer

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Dec. 27 2012,18:08)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64) It is my understanding that “HE” refers back to John the Baptist, and “the light” refers back to the Word. Do we still agree, 2B? Mike, so far yes.

Great! There are many scriptures that prove the rest of what you wrote to be flawed, but I don't want to get ahead of ourselves.

Slow and steady wins the race.

John 1:9
The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

Is John still writing about the Word from verse 1?

[Wakeup]

Mike B.

It is true that the chair had no relationship with you,but a chair is dead.
The word of God is alive;a LIVING WORD.

Before God proceeds with his big plan;he brought forth Jesus FIRST, his deadly weapon.(so to speak).

wakeup.

[2besee]

Hi Wakeup, rather than be “mysterious” as to what you believe, what DO you believe? Thanks. I have only heard bits and pieces.

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2012,13:24)

John 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. Is John still writing about the Word from verse 1?

Yes. From what I can see.

[2besee]

Kerwin and Mike your posts on page 43 were well researched I had only skim read them before, sorry. (Been so busy lately). I really need to do more reading of those verses including Genesis 1, and I will.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2012,10:45)

It is noted that Kerwin believes the Word was the “utterance of God”, that not only happened to be with God in the beginning, but also was the very God it was with.  It is further noted that Kerwin does not believe “the light” was “the utterance”, but that it was the “faithfulness” or “righteousness” of God that was in God's “utterance”. It is also noted that Gene has not yet commented on verses 6 and 7, and that although Ed is apparently done building his holy city, and has opted to join into this discussion, he has yet to address the points of the exercise. So far, 2B and I have agreed that verses 2-7 have “the Word” from verse 1 as their subject.  Moving on…………… John 1:8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. It is my understanding that “HE” refers back to John the Baptist, and “the light” refers back to the Word. Do we still agree, 2B?  Ed?  Gene?

Mike……..The term Light is simply saying mental awareness and this mental awareness (light) is from the Spirit (intellects residing in ones mind)>

A word is a (intelligent utterance ) it is no more then that, it is never a PERSON in any form, there is no such thing as a word being made Flesh why? because a word is the expressed result of the Spirit (en-light-meant in the mind)

Trying to make a Word into a flesh person is an error. Words are from Spirit not flesh. The word did not become flesh “IT” came to be “IN” flesh, the word of God came to be “IN” the Flesh Man Jesus , by the Anointing of Spirit he receive at the Jordan, that is why Jesus is call the Christ or (the anointed one). God is a Spirit and can indwell anyone he choses to.  He considers us temples he can dwell in , It was not Jesus who said “destroy this “temple” and in three days I (GOD) shall raise  “it” up, that was God speaking first person through Jesus' mouth.

If you listen very closely you can tell when God the Father is speaking or when Jesus is. , I have mentioned this before to you, remember when God the Father spoke these word through Jesus,  “Jerusalem O Jerusalem, you that killed the prophets and stoned those sent unto you, how often would I (God the FATHER) would have gathered you, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you would not, therefore your house is left unto you desolate , you will no longer see me until you say, blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord”. Mike, that was God, not Jesus Speaking those word through Jesus' mouth.

Here is the way i see it

Words are……….intelligent utterances (expressed) through Sounds waves, have there orgin from the Spirit.

Light is………….Cognate awareness (thoughts) It has it's orgin from Sprit

It is the Spirits that produces both the Light and the Words spoken through flesh. The orign of it all , is Spirit.

Spirits in there simplest form is the cognate intellect of the mind and come in all kinds and types either clean or unclean , Good or Evil. Spirit is Spirit , Flesh is Flesh , they can never be the same. Spirits can only be with or in Flesh but never be Flesh.

God could never be Flesh as Spirit is not flesh, God the Father came to dwell (IN) Flesh the Flesh man Jesus. That is all that is needed here is to believe what Jesus said, He said several time the Father was “IN” HIM doing the Works.  Jesus said the Son of Man could do Nothing of himself , the Father “IN” him was doing (his work), throuh Jesus the man.

Just believe what Jesus said  is all that is needed. IMO believe you not the Father is IN” me then, believe in the Miracles that should tell you that God was with HIM at least,  if you do not actually believe God the Father was indeed “IN” him, at least believe God was with him.

If God's Spirit is in You, So is God's Mind imputing to you his cognate awareness (light). IMO

if the spirit of him that raised Christ Jesus from the dead dwell “IN” you “IT” shall “also” quicken you mortal “bodies”. Just like it did Jesus' “MORTAL BODY”.

peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene

[Ed J]

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 28 2012,11:21)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 27 2012,20:46) Hi Jammin, Is Jesus the sword of the spirit?  1. Yes  2. No give mt the verse and ill tell you my answer

Hi Jammin,

At least you admit that you don't know.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

To all,

I am filling ill. Since my immune system is compromised any illness can be serious. Hopefully it turns out to be nothing. I plan on posting in the future, the Lord willing.

[Ed J]

Hi Kerwin,

We'll be praying for you brother.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[jammin]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 29 2012,06:21)

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 28 2012,11:21) Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 27 2012,20:46) Hi Jammin, Is Jesus the sword of the spirit?  1. Yes  2. No give mt the verse and ill tell you my answer Hi Jammin, At least you admit that you don't know. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

did i say i do not know?? do you know how to read??

i said give me the verse. you know why im asking you the verse? bec i want to correct your false interpretation just like what you are doing in john 1.1

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