In the Beginning

Participant

Gene,

The light is God's righteousness.
The life of humanity is salvation.

It is written that those that love darkness(wickedness) do not come out into the light(God's righteousness).

We know that those that seek the light (God's righteousness) will inherit the life of humanity(salvation).

I liked your true point that Jesus was created by God's Word.

December 24, 2012 at 4:48 am#325183

jammin

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 23 2012,03:30)

Quote (2besee @ Dec. 22 2012,09:07)

His name WILL BE CALLED Jahshua (Yah saves). Yah was saving the world through the Son (Yahshua) because His spirit was in Him.

The eternal Spirit came into the World.
The eternal Spirit was in the World in the beginning.
And the eternal Spirit is here now, still.

Amen?

Mike …….This is 100% totally accurate . I believe you are comprehending these things brother. What 2besee has said here is the truth in its purest form brother. When Thomas said My Lord “and” My God He did not mean “my Lord God” Mike but that he had come to see that Jesus was his lord Present there, and The ETERNAL GOD was also Present , anothers words Two Spirits in ONE BODY < God the Fathers "and" Jesus' .

That voice that said destory this tempel (body) and in three days I (GOD speaking first person) Shall raise “IT” (that Body) up, was God the Father Mike

Mike if you will dump that Preexistences false teaching I beleieve you will clearly see these thing brother. Mike i pray that God will Grant you to see and understand these thing it will bring great Joy to you My Brother.

Peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene

paul said Christ was God before he took the form of MAN.
phil 2.6
try to read the context and stop reading false doctrine. why dont you read the bible alone and understand the meaning of it.

john said the WORD was God.
the WORD is the title of Christ rev 19.13

john said that. thomas said Christ is his Lord and God.
true christians believe Christ is the son of God. they believe he is God just like his father. he came to earth to serve people.

December 24, 2012 at 4:49 am#325185

jammin

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 24 2012,08:44)

Mike……….No to your perceptions of what 3&4 are saying

John 1:3…..All things were made by him “it” (is the word of God) and without him “it”
( the word of God) was not any thing made that was made, ( and that includes Jesus ) scripture says Jesus was made a little lower then the angels , just like we are.

John 1:4……in him “it” ( the word of God ), was the life (cognate awareness) or (intellect) was the light (cognate awareness or intellect) of men. Why because the word of God “IS” Spirit and “IS” life. Remember Jesus said the words he spoke to us were “life” and “spirit” , he also said those words were not his words he was telling us but of or from the father .

Now put it together Mike, God and his words are one and the same thing, just as your words and you are one and the same thing, no difference Mike. God is who enlightens “all” men coming in the world God and God alone.

Peace and love to you and yours Mike………………………………..gene

the word is him and not it boy

December 24, 2012 at 6:35 am#325187

Participant

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 24 2012,09:49)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 24 2012,08:44)

Mike……….No to your perceptions of what 3&4 are saying

Peace and love to you and yours Mike………………………………..gene

the word is him and not it boy

Jammin,

Actually Word is it in English as English nouns and pronouns do not have genders as Ancient Greek does. Logos is a male gendered Ancient Greek Word.

There are plenty of translations that have translated the Ancient Greek male gender to the English neuter gender as you well know.

December 24, 2012 at 8:54 am#325193

jammin

Participant

kerwin,

translators know what they are doing. you do not know the language. you did not even study greek.
here are the versions
New International Version (©1984)
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

New Living Translation (©2007)
God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.

English Standard Version (©2001)
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.

International Standard Version (©2012)
Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Everything was in his hand, and without him not even one thing existed of the things that existed.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Everything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

American King James Version
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

American Standard Version
All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.

Douay-Rheims Bible
All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

Darby Bible Translation
All things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being.

English Revised Version
All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.

Webster's Bible Translation
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Weymouth New Testament
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing that exists came into being.

World English Bible
All things were made through him. Without him was not anything made that has been made.

Young's Literal Translation
all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.

if you read the context, it really tells us that the the word WORD refers to the son.

look at verse 14
John 1:14

English Standard Version (ESV)

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

here is what the commentary said
{2} All {f} things were made by him; and {g} without him {h} was not any thing made that was made.

(2) The Son of God declares that his everlasting Godhead is the same as the Father's, both by the creating of all things, and also by preserving them, and especially by the excellent gifts of reason and understanding with which he has beautified man above all other creatures.

(f) Paul expounds on this in Col 1:15-16.

(g) That is, as the Father did work, so did the Son work with him: for the Son was a fellow worker with him.

(h) Of all those things which were made, nothing was made without him.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

1:1-5 The plainest reason why the Son of God is called the Word, seems to be, that as our words explain our minds to others, so was the Son of God sent in order to reveal his Father's mind to the world. What the evangelist says of Christ proves that he is God. He asserts, His existence in the beginning; His coexistence with the Father. The Word was with God.

the WORD is a title/name of Christ. look rev 19.13
Revelation 19:13

English Standard Version (ESV)

13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.

compare again rev 19.13 to john 1.1
John 1:1

Contemporary English Version (CEV)
The Word of Life

1 In the beginning was the one
who is called the Word.
The Word was with God
and was truly God.

that is a word for word in the bible. the WORD is Christ himself.

December 24, 2012 at 9:44 am#325194

http://biblos.com/john/1-2.htm

Participant

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
The same was in the beginning with God.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
The same was in the beginning with God.

American King James Version
The same was in the beginning with God.

American Standard Version
The same was in the beginning with God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The same was in the beginning with God.

English Revised Version
The same was in the beginning with God.

Webster's Bible Translation
The same was in the beginning with God.

World English Bible
The same was in the beginning with God.

In most versions the word Houtos has been translated as 'The same' as can be seen above. however, in the next verse: John 1-3, the word Autos is used, which translated means 'Self; He; She; It; or The Same' but they translated it in all versions as Him.

If the previous verse translated a different word altogether as 'The same' then why would they not translate the next word which means 'The same' as 'The same'.

It would then read: 'In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and God was the word. (Logos: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy) This (Houtos) was in the beginning with God. All things through the same (Autos) came into being not even one which came into being.

http://biblos.com/john/1-2.htm
http://biblos.com/john/1-3.htm

We were made in God's image and we have a body and a spirit and our word.
God does not have a body as God is spirit.

The OT is clear that only ONE GOD created the earth. ALONE.

December 24, 2012 at 9:50 am#325195

Participant

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 24 2012,16:48)

true christians believe Christ is the son of God.

Is there anybody here who does not believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

Quote

they believe he is God just like his father.

So, as a Trinitarian do you believe that there are two (three) Gods?
But those two (three) Gods make up one God, right?

December 24, 2012 at 10:05 am#325196

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 24 2012,11:10)

Gene,

The light is God's righteousness.
The life of humanity is salvation.

It is written that those that love darkness(wickedness) do not come out into the light(God's righteousness).

We know that those that seek the light (God's righteousness) will inherit the life of humanity(salvation).

I liked your true point that Jesus was created by God's Word.

Correct.
I also believe that the light is love.

1John 2:1-11

My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected.
By this we may be sure that we are in him:
he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning;
the old commandment is the word which you have heard.

Yet I am writing you a new commandment, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.
He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still.
He who loves his brother abides in the light, and in it there is no cause for stumbling.
But he who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

December 24, 2012 at 10:12 am#325197

Participant

Mike, Those were to you too, the above posts =)

December 24, 2012 at 10:13 am#325198

Participant

In answer to your question paaaaage 36.

December 24, 2012 at 10:23 am#325200

Participant

And the whole law is summed up as being love of God and love of neighbor, and our neighbor is the suffering one among us, helping the needy is being a true neighbor. And the needy can be anyone who is 'needy' even the spiritual needy or the lonely or the suffering or the hungry or the hurt, as is shown in scriptures.

So God is light and God is love. And with no light an no love the world would not be a nice place would it.

December 24, 2012 at 10:46 am#325201

Participant

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.'

This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.
If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;
but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.
He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still.
He who loves his brother abides in the light, and in it there is no cause for stumbling.'

In the beginning the Spirit was moving over the waters and God said 'let there be light' (God's love) 'and there was light'.
He who does not love does not know God because God is love.
He who hates his brother is in the darkness.
The opposite of love is hate.
And the opposite of truth is lies.

December 24, 2012 at 2:26 pm#325217

Participant

Quote (2besee @ Dec. 24 2012,15:05)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 24 2012,11:10)

Gene,

The light is God's righteousness.
The life of humanity is salvation.

It is written that those that love darkness(wickedness) do not come out into the light(God's righteousness).

We know that those that seek the light (God's righteousness) will inherit the life of humanity(salvation).

I liked your true point that Jesus was created by God's Word.

Correct.
I also believe that the light is love.

1John 2:1-11

Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning;
the old commandment is the word which you have heard.

2beesee,

I agree!

Quote

Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning;
the old commandment is the word which you have heard.

A good passage that relates to John 1:1.

December 24, 2012 at 4:41 pm#325220

http://biblos.com/john/1-2.htm
http://biblos.com/john/1-3.htm

Blocked

So then we all agree that “YES”, John 1:3 and 1:4 are still talking about the same “Word of God” that was spoken of in verses 1 and 2?

(It's hard to tell, for you all keep wanting to DIVERT these simple questions into monster posts encompassing all things scriptural. )

Btw, I'm not actually READING these posts, because they are, for now, nothing but DIVERSIONS to the simple and easy questions I'm asking. I have been merely SKIMMING them, looking desparately for either the “YES” or “NO” answer I'm asking for.

So guys, YES or NO? Is the subject of verses 3 and 4 STILL “the Word of God” as it was in verses 1 and 2? (It's not that hard of a question, you know.)

As of right now, I am not making ANY claims as to WHO or WHAT this particular “Word of God” is……… and NEITHER should you guys be making any claims or explanations. Right now, for the purpose of this exercise (which is to see exactly WHERE we start disagreeing), we need to PRETEND that we are reading John 1 for the first time, and that NONE of us actually know WHO or WHAT this particular “Word of God” is. All we need to focus on is whether or not John CONTINUES to write about the same “Word” that he named in verse 1.

In other words, does John CONTINUE to write about the SAME subject in verses 2, 3, and 4 as he was writing about in verse 1?

Does he? YES or NO?

Can you guys just DIRECTLY answer the question?

December 24, 2012 at 4:55 pm#325222

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (2besee @ Dec. 24 2012,19:44)

If the previous verse translated a different word altogether as 'The same' then why would they not translate the next word which means 'The same' as 'The same'.

We were made in God's image and we have a body and a spirit and our word.
God does not have a body as God is spirit.

The OT is clear that only ONE GOD created the earth. ALONE.

To All………..What 2besee has posted here is the absolute truth, IMO

Peace and love to you all…………………………….gene

December 24, 2012 at 5:09 pm#325223

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 24 2012,21:41)

So then we all agree that “YES”, John 1:3 and 1:4 are still talking about the same “Word of God” that was spoken of in verses 1 and 2?

(It's hard to tell, for you all keep wanting to DIVERT these simple questions into monster posts encompassing all things scriptural. )

So guys, YES or NO? Is the subject of verses 3 and 4 STILL “the Word of God” as it was in verses 1 and 2? (It's not that hard of a question, you know.)

In other words, does John CONTINUE to write about the SAME subject in verses 2, 3, and 4 as he was writing about in verse 1?

Does he? YES or NO?

Can you guys just DIRECTLY answer the question?

Mike,

I am intelligent and therefore believe I have the right to converse in the way I believe is profitable.

As 2beesee pointed out even Jesus was created by the Word. God was not. The Word was not created by Jesus.

“Through him all things were made” is specifically true about the Word and cannot be specifically true about Jesus unless he is non-created.

Notice John is speaking about the Word until the transition to speaking of the light occurs in verse 4.

December 24, 2012 at 5:33 pm#325227

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Mike……….Your answer is explained by 2besee above , God and His word are one and the same brother. What you are doing is allowing the (trinitarian driven) wording cause you to error.

We have been over this many times before where Words chosen by translators are in many scriptures used differently. But the simplest thing i can keep saying to you is God and His words or word are one and the same thing.

It is up to you to show us where God and his words are different , in fact you can't show where anyone and their word are different can you?

Mike why should we go back and read any Scripture as if we have never read it before, you still trying desperately to play a shell game with us. If you use the Filter of God Spirit of truth you could easel see what 2besee has explained above.

Can you just step outside of those false teachings of the Trinity and Preexistence , started by the Gnostic's long ago, and try to follow what we are saying to you brother? Can you at least try to deliver yourself from those ungodly doctrines taught by nearly all false “Christianity”. Which is about 90 % of all Christendoms teachings .

We are told to come out of Her (those false Church teachings) that you recieve not of Her Pleagues . The true light is shinning for you take hold of it brother, God and His word are one and the Same Thing Mike. When you turn away forom those false teaching you will find the Joy , Jesus was talking about brother , the truth is indeed Joy and Peace of Mind Brother. We believe on ONLY ONE GOD and that ONE GOD CREATED EVERYTHING that exists and he did it (ALONE) and BY (HIMSELF) Now if he said he did it (ALONE) then that would exclude all others Mike.

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………..gene

December 24, 2012 at 6:00 pm#325232

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 24 2012,10:33)

Mike……….Your answer is explained by 2besee above………

Oh great Gene! So YOU were able to find his YES or NO answer in all that stuff he posted? I wasn't able to, so thanks!

Could you now let ME know whether he DOES or DOESN'T agree that verses 3 and 4 are still talking about the same “Word” John started talking about in verse 1?

Then we can move on to the next verses in line.

December 24, 2012 at 6:09 pm#325234

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 24 2012,10:09)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 24 2012,21:41)

Does he? YES or NO?

Can you guys just DIRECTLY answer the question?

Mike,

I am intelligent and therefore believe I have the right to converse in the way I believe is profitable.

I don't doubt you are intelligent, Kerwin. It is for that very reason you would rather DIVERT this simple and straightforward exercise than just DIRECTLY answer the simple questions. The point is that you ARE intelligent, and you already KNOW where this is going to take us all.

You don't WANT to be taken to that place of scriptural truth, and so all three of you guys are desparately trying your best to not allow the discussion to go to that place.

I mean, look at the posts you guys are making here. They are only simple questions I'm asking here, yet you're all running around like your heads were on fire and your asses were catching.

Kerwin, has the SUBJECT of verse one changed in verses 2, 3, or 4? YES or NO?

December 24, 2012 at 7:01 pm#325244