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Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2013,06:06) Quote (kerwin @ May 12 2013,20:04) Paul(?) is referring to angels by the type of spirit they have.
Paul doesn't say angels HAVE ministering spirits. He says they ARE ministering spirits.Kerwin, since we know Paul is talking about REAL angels, and angels ARE spirit beings, is there any reason to think he was only METAPHORICALLY calling them “spirits” in Hebrews 1:14?
And what about the scripture Abe posted, Kerwin?
Hebrews 1:7
And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”Does that verse say that God's angels are spirits?
I seriously don't know why I'm even bothering with this word game crap. You and Abe already both agree with me that angels are indeed spirit beings.
Mike,God is Love. Does it mean God is composed of love or that he has love?
Angels are love.
Angels are ministering spirits.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2013,06:06) Quote (kerwin @ May 12 2013,20:04) Paul(?) is referring to angels by the type of spirit they have.
Paul doesn't say angels HAVE ministering spirits. He says they ARE ministering spirits.Kerwin, since we know Paul is talking about REAL angels, and angels ARE spirit beings, is there any reason to think he was only METAPHORICALLY calling them “spirits” in Hebrews 1:14?
And what about the scripture Abe posted, Kerwin?
Hebrews 1:7
And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”Does that verse say that God's angels are spirits?
I seriously don't know why I'm even bothering with this word game crap. You and Abe already both agree with me that angels are indeed spirit beings.
Mike,Who do you believe are the flame beings that minister for Jehovah?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2013,13:37) I've shown you scriptures that prove the words are literal, Gene. Also, what is your response to knowing that the word “angels” is not genitive? Now that you know the words do NOT mean “God makes the spirits OF His angels” – what do you have to say?
Mike……..All life has spirit given by God in it, not one thing that has “life”. In it , that does not have spirit in it also, because the very life in it is spirit , spirit comes in type and kinds, and is in creation in the bodies they are “IN”. No spirit is a “body” of any kind, spirits are what is in bodies and they control those bodies they are in.I tell you again God makes the spirits that are “in” his angels or messengers and sends them out into the world to minister, for him. They are intense judges (dealing out the judgements of God) in this world . Even Jesus received spirit from God and was also sent out into the world to preach and He himself was a flame of fire , giving us God the Fathers intense judgements.
WE ALL HAVE SPIRITS IN US GIVEN TO US BY GOD, AND NONE OF THOSE SPIRITS ARE BODIES IN US, OR ANGELS IN US EITHER. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 15 2013,20:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2013,13:37) I've shown you scriptures that prove the words are literal, Gene. Also, what is your response to knowing that the word “angels” is not genitive? Now that you know the words do NOT mean “God makes the spirits OF His angels” – what do you have to say?
Mike……..All life has spirit given by God in it, not one thing that has “life”. In it , that does not have spirit in it also, because the very life in it is spirit , spirit comes in type and kinds, and is in creation in the bodies they are “IN”. No spirit is a “body” of any kind, spirits are what is in bodies and they control those bodies they are in.I tell you again God makes the spirits that are “in” his angels or messengers and sends them out into the world to minister, for him. They are intense judges (dealing out the judgements of God) in this world . Even Jesus received spirit from God and was also sent out into the world to preach and He himself was a flame of fire , giving us God the Fathers intense judgements.
WE ALL HAVE SPIRITS IN US GIVEN TO US BY GOD, AND NONE OF THOSE SPIRITS ARE BODIES IN US, OR ANGELS IN US EITHER. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Gene,God makes his messengers winds and his ministers fire.
Quote As “spirits” implies the wind-like velocity and subtle nature of the cherubim, so “flame of fire” expresses the burning devotion and intense all-consuming zeal of the adoring seraphim (meaning “burning), Isa 6:1. I agree with the gist of the above quote. The rest of what he writes seems highly speculative. His attributing certain attributes to certain kinds of angels also seems questionable.
Note: Excerpt from opinion of the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 13 2013,15:55) Quote (abe @ May 12 2013,19:29) Hi Mike, Gen.2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up its place with flesh;
22And from the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his Mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be One Flesh.
How many human beings are Here ?
Let's see……………. Adam, plus Eve, equals TWO human beings, Abe.Why? How many human beings do YOU count?
Hi Mike,24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his Mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be One Flesh.
How many human beings here?
Peace brother.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 13 2013,07:02) Abe………. Makes good sense, the lamps could very well represent the body contaning the seven spirits of God. I also believe, in order to be a Living Soul requires a Body of some kind, The combination of a body and Spirit , is what I consider a “living” Soul. But there is also the idea of a Complete Person or being , as God who is spirit, said His “Soul” hated some things, But if we consider YAHWEH as the person and his seven Spirit, his mental Makeup, that guides and councils him , then we can have, a Body that is with spirits also, even when considering YAHWEH the LORD our GOD. Then there is also the idea, that God ,who is spirit, Live vicariously IN and though his Physical Creation, So the things created in which he Lives in could be considered his body, espically if His will is being done in those bodies. Just speculating, i am not preaching any of that as dogma just speculation is all, I am still learning myself. What you have said about the Lamps representing bodies is very good brother, i agree with that.
Scripture does seem to say when a body is separated from it's spirit, that “PERSON” is considered as dead, or life less. “for when a man dies his thoughts Parish”, it says. Many think there are three part of man, a body, a soul , and a spirit, i personally do not believe that , i believe it just a body with spirit “IN” it , that makes up a Living Soul. Separate the spirit from the body and that person no longer exists, that is why, to me, a Resurrection of our Bodies is necessary in order for us to continue to live. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………….gene
Hi Gene,Resurrection of our Body or Soul? Or Both?
Peace brother.
Abe……….Both, a soul is a body, and without a spirit in it, it is a dead soul, with spirit in it, it then is a living soul. Man became a “living” soul after the spirit was introduced into him . That spirit is what gave his body life. A soul can parish, a spirit can't , it (the spirit) goes back to God, where it came from in the first place when a man or animal dies as do all spirits come from God and return to him, IMO.
Jesus told us not to fear him who could destroy the body and could do nothing else, why? Because God can always make another body,and add the spirit back, so we are told to fear God only, why?, because he can destroy the complete “living soul” for ever , how ?, by simply leaving our bodies in the grave and not resurrecting them. If he were to do that we would never live again so the complete union of body and spirit as a living soul would be destroyed forever in the grave. Man and animals consist of only two parts, a body, and spirit operating in it, and that constitutes a “LIVING SOUL”, without a body we are “DEAD” and dead means no life what so ever.
It is absolutely crucial we obtain unto a physical resurrection . Just as Paul said , we hope for the resurrection that will witness the redemption of our “BODIES”. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Quote (abe @ May 16 2013,00:00) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 13 2013,07:02) Abe………. Makes good sense, the lamps could very well represent the body contaning the seven spirits of God. I also believe, in order to be a Living Soul requires a Body of some kind, The combination of a body and Spirit , is what I consider a “living” Soul. But there is also the idea of a Complete Person or being , as God who is spirit, said His “Soul” hated some things, But if we consider YAHWEH as the person and his seven Spirit, his mental Makeup, that guides and councils him , then we can have, a Body that is with spirits also, even when considering YAHWEH the LORD our GOD. Then there is also the idea, that God ,who is spirit, Live vicariously IN and though his Physical Creation, So the things created in which he Lives in could be considered his body, espically if His will is being done in those bodies. Just speculating, i am not preaching any of that as dogma just speculation is all, I am still learning myself. What you have said about the Lamps representing bodies is very good brother, i agree with that.
Scripture does seem to say when a body is separated from it's spirit, that “PERSON” is considered as dead, or life less. “for when a man dies his thoughts Parish”, it says. Many think there are three part of man, a body, a soul , and a spirit, i personally do not believe that , i believe it just a body with spirit “IN” it , that makes up a Living Soul. Separate the spirit from the body and that person no longer exists, that is why, to me, a Resurrection of our Bodies is necessary in order for us to continue to live. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………….gene
Hi Gene,Resurrection of our Body or Soul? Or Both?
Peace brother.
Abe,The soul does not die unless God destroys it in the fires of Gehenna. There is no resurrection from that destruction.
Only the body can be resurrected.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 15 2013,10:54) Abe……….Both, a soul is a body, and without a spirit in it, it is a dead soul, with spirit in it, it then is a living soul. Man became a “living” soul after the spirit was introduced into him . That spirit is what gave his body life. A soul can parish, a spirit can't , it (the spirit) goes back to God, where it came from in the first place when a man or animal dies as do all spirits come from God and return to him, IMO. Jesus told us not to fear him who could destroy the body and could do nothing else, why? Because God can always make another body,and add the spirit back, so we are told to fear God only, why?, because he can destroy the complete “living soul” for ever , how ?, by simply leaving our bodies in the grave and not resurrecting them. If he were to do that we would never live again so the complete union of body and spirit as a living soul would be destroyed forever in the grave. Man and animals consist of only two parts, a body, and spirit operating in it, and that constitutes a “LIVING SOUL”, without a body we are “DEAD” and dead means no life what so ever.
It is absolutely crucial we obtain unto a physical resurrection . Just as Paul said , we hope for the resurrection that will witness the redemption of our “BODIES”. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Hi Gene,1Thes.5:23 and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph.4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling.
Rom.12:5 so we, who are many, are one BODY in Christ, and individually members one of another.
1Pet.1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
Peace brother…
Quote (abe @ May 16 2013,02:18) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 15 2013,10:54) Abe……….Both, a soul is a body, and without a spirit in it, it is a dead soul, with spirit in it, it then is a living soul. Man became a “living” soul after the spirit was introduced into him . That spirit is what gave his body life. A soul can parish, a spirit can't , it (the spirit) goes back to God, where it came from in the first place when a man or animal dies as do all spirits come from God and return to him, IMO. Jesus told us not to fear him who could destroy the body and could do nothing else, why? Because God can always make another body,and add the spirit back, so we are told to fear God only, why?, because he can destroy the complete “living soul” for ever , how ?, by simply leaving our bodies in the grave and not resurrecting them. If he were to do that we would never live again so the complete union of body and spirit as a living soul would be destroyed forever in the grave. Man and animals consist of only two parts, a body, and spirit operating in it, and that constitutes a “LIVING SOUL”, without a body we are “DEAD” and dead means no life what so ever.
It is absolutely crucial we obtain unto a physical resurrection . Just as Paul said , we hope for the resurrection that will witness the redemption of our “BODIES”. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Hi Gene,1Thes.5:23 and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph.4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling.
Rom.12:5 so we, who are many, are one BODY in Christ, and individually members one of another.
1Pet.1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
Peace brother…
Abe,You read like you are doing a variation of mixing your metaphors in your post. As you have quotes about the literal body mixed with those about the metaphoric body of the church.
Quote (kerwin @ May 14 2013,12:57) Mike, There was the line of Seth and the line of Cain at that time.
Which line showed they were not mere men by calling on the name of the Lord?
Genesis 6
1 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.Kerwin, the bolded words above are both the generic form of “adam”, meaning “humankind”……… according to NETNotes.
These “sons of God” are distinguished from “humankind”. It is evident from the context that these are beings other than “humankind”, who thought the daughters of “humankind” were good looking.
In your understanding, the human offspring of Seth all a sudden discovered that human women were good looking, and started having sex with them.
The whole ordeal is outlined in the Book of Enoch, right?
Tell me, what scriptural reason do you offer for any of us NOT to believe it was spirit beings who went unto the daughters of human beings?
Quote (abe @ May 15 2013,11:03) Hi Mike, 24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his Mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be One Flesh.
How many human beings here?
Two, Abe.Luke 24:37
But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit.Gene, the disciples did NOT think they were seeing “the conate thoughts inside a body” – or whatever.
Kerwin, there is no such thing as “ghosts”. There are spirit beings, and human beings. And just as human beings are often called simply “humans”, spirit beings are sometimes called simply “spirits” in scripture.
The disciples thought they were seeing a spirit being, and Jesus told them that spirit beings don't have flesh and blood.
End of story.
This is too mind-numbing for me, guys. Think what you want to think. I really don't care anymore.
Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2013,13:24) Quote (abe @ May 16 2013,02:18) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 15 2013,10:54) Abe……….Both, a soul is a body, and without a spirit in it, it is a dead soul, with spirit in it, it then is a living soul. Man became a “living” soul after the spirit was introduced into him . That spirit is what gave his body life. A soul can parish, a spirit can't , it (the spirit) goes back to God, where it came from in the first place when a man or animal dies as do all spirits come from God and return to him, IMO. Jesus told us not to fear him who could destroy the body and could do nothing else, why? Because God can always make another body,and add the spirit back, so we are told to fear God only, why?, because he can destroy the complete “living soul” for ever , how ?, by simply leaving our bodies in the grave and not resurrecting them. If he were to do that we would never live again so the complete union of body and spirit as a living soul would be destroyed forever in the grave. Man and animals consist of only two parts, a body, and spirit operating in it, and that constitutes a “LIVING SOUL”, without a body we are “DEAD” and dead means no life what so ever.
It is absolutely crucial we obtain unto a physical resurrection . Just as Paul said , we hope for the resurrection that will witness the redemption of our “BODIES”. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Hi Gene,1Thes.5:23 and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph.4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling.
Rom.12:5 so we, who are many, are one BODY in Christ, and individually members one of another.
1Pet.1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
Peace brother…
Abe,You read like you are doing a variation of mixing your metaphors in your post. As you have quotes about the literal body mixed with those about the metaphoric body of the church.
Hi Kerwin,Eph.4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling.
Rom.12:5 so we, who are many, are one BODY in Christ, and individually members one of another.
How can You have a Bodily resurrection? One Body, the Body of Christ.
Why do you say metaphoric? You don't Believe?
Peace brother..
Quote (abe @ May 16 2013,05:13) Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2013,13:24) Quote (abe @ May 16 2013,02:18) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 15 2013,10:54) Abe……….Both, a soul is a body, and without a spirit in it, it is a dead soul, with spirit in it, it then is a living soul. Man became a “living” soul after the spirit was introduced into him . That spirit is what gave his body life. A soul can parish, a spirit can't , it (the spirit) goes back to God, where it came from in the first place when a man or animal dies as do all spirits come from God and return to him, IMO. Jesus told us not to fear him who could destroy the body and could do nothing else, why? Because God can always make another body,and add the spirit back, so we are told to fear God only, why?, because he can destroy the complete “living soul” for ever , how ?, by simply leaving our bodies in the grave and not resurrecting them. If he were to do that we would never live again so the complete union of body and spirit as a living soul would be destroyed forever in the grave. Man and animals consist of only two parts, a body, and spirit operating in it, and that constitutes a “LIVING SOUL”, without a body we are “DEAD” and dead means no life what so ever.
It is absolutely crucial we obtain unto a physical resurrection . Just as Paul said , we hope for the resurrection that will witness the redemption of our “BODIES”. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Hi Gene,1Thes.5:23 and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph.4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling.
Rom.12:5 so we, who are many, are one BODY in Christ, and individually members one of another.
1Pet.1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
Peace brother…
Abe,You read like you are doing a variation of mixing your metaphors in your post. As you have quotes about the literal body mixed with those about the metaphoric body of the church.
Hi Kerwin,Eph.4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling.
Rom.12:5 so we, who are many, are one BODY in Christ, and individually members one of another.
How can You have a Bodily resurrection? One Body, the Body of Christ.
Why do you say metaphoric? You don't Believe?
Peace brother..
Abe,The structure of the church is a likeness of the physical body.
Likeness and metaphor are synonyms.
Mike,
Quote Kerwin, there is no such thing as “ghosts”. There are spirit beings, and human beings. And just as human beings are often called simply “humans”, spirit beings are sometimes called simply “spirits” in scripture. Modern nonsense.
Have you stopped believing their are souls that are naked in Sheol. No ghosts under the altar. If there are no ghosts then how can Jehovah be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel?
In short you believe there are ghosts just like Gene believes in Satan and seemingly for a congruent reason.
I believe the dead are conscious of nothing at all – just like Solomon wrote.
I believe when a person dies, the body decays, the spirit goes back to Him who gave it, and the soul rests until a later awakening by God and Jesus.
I believe there exist many SPIRITS – but not “ghosts”.
What are you calling a ghost? To me, the word conjures up a meaning of a dead person who refuses to accept he is dead, and so goes floating through the world saying “BOO!” and scaring people.
What are YOU saying a ghost is?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 16 2013,08:04) I believe the dead are conscious of nothing at all – just like Solomon wrote. I believe when a person dies, the body decays, the spirit goes back to Him who gave it, and the soul rests until a later awakening by God and Jesus.
I believe there exist many SPIRITS – but not “ghosts”.
What are you calling a ghost? To me, the word conjures up a meaning of a dead person who refuses to accept he is dead, and so goes floating through the world saying “BOO!” and scaring people.
What are YOU saying a ghost is?
Mike,Ghosts are spirits. Some claim certain ones walk the earth, but except for the disciples belief in such, I know of no evidence of such in the bible. Some claim they can be summoned for a time, and Scripture has one such event. They may have Alzheimer on steroids, they may be sleeping, but nevertheless they are still ghosts.
Mike………Saying they “THOUGHT” they saw something, in no way means they Did See it or any evidence that a spirit “body” exists either. Jesus went on to tell them that he was NOT A SPIRIT, becasue He had “FLESH and BONE” ,and Spirt do not have that, So much for the resurection being Just a Sprit “body” of some kind , Right?.
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………….gene
Abe…. We will be raised with bodies of Flesh and bone , just as Jesus was. Paul said Plainly that we are waiting for the resurrection that will wittiness the redemption of our “bodies”.
Eze 37:5……>Thus says the Lord God unto these “bones”; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live: (6) And I will lay “SINEWS” upon you, and will bring up “FLESH” upon you, and cover you with “SKIN” and put “BREATH” in you and you shall Live; and you shall know I am the LORD.
Read the whole thing Abe and it is clear how the resurrection takes Place, it is explained very clearly, even a child should be able to understand. These people who believe we are to be resurrected as a Spirit Only are completely against what is written both by Paul , Jesus, and what is said in Ezekiel , by GOD.
peace and love toyou and yours……………………………….gene
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