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Quote (kerwin @ May 12 2013,01:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 11 2013,05:48) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 10 2013,08:30) that scripture you quoted does not say angels at all , but the “son” of God , Men are called sons of God too,
Genesis 6
1 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they took as wives any of them they chose.4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
So you believe this passage speaks about regular old human beings having sex with regular old human beings?
Mike,The only sons of God mentioned in the Law, The books of Mosses, are the Children of Israel. The Messengers were not referred to that until the book of Job, which is not a book of the Law, the books of Mosses.
sons of God{
* Anyone created by Jehovah.
* Any male created by Jehovah.
* Any male that receives the Word of God.
* Anyone that receives the Word of God.
* One of Jehovah's angels.
* a saint.
* a male saint.
}There is seven possible though some can be eliminated because the passage is clearly speaking of males. There is nothing in the context that supports selecting angels. Everyone is created by Jehovah and so that option is eliminated. The did not behave as a saint.
KSo men can not behave like beast
Because they are human Your logic about Angel beings does not stand,some men are so corrup that they have sex with animals,
Terricca………..because when they knew God they glorified him mnot as God, therefore God turned them over in there minds to do the things, men lusting for other men, and all the rest of mans corruptable behaviors. “and again” ,unless the LORD build the house the weary builders toil in vain, unless the Lord is the cities shield, the guard maintan a usless watch.
peace and nlvoe to you and yuors…………………………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 12 2013,19:59) Terricca………..because when they knew God they glorified him mnot as God, therefore God turned them over in there minds to do the things, men lusting for other men, and all the rest of mans corruptable behaviors. “and again” ,unless the LORD build the house the weary builders toil in vain, unless the Lord is the cities shield, the guard maintan a usless watch. peace and nlvoe to you and yuors…………………………………………………gene
Gno difference with the angels sons of God ,they also got corrupted
Quote (abe @ May 11 2013,11:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2013,17:58) Well Kerwin, Are angels “beings”? Of course. Even Gene acknowledges this.
Hi Mike,Why is it so important to YOU to use the term BEING? You are adding to the Scripture.
Peace
Abe,Do you ONLY use scriptural words to explain the Bible? For example, have you EVER IN YOUR LIFE used the term “human being”? Is that term actually IN the Bible?
Come on, man. I use the term “being” to relate what I'm talking about. Every commentator or scholar or secular writer known to man understands that God is a BEING. A BEING is someone who has his own mind, will, thoughts, power, etc.
Are you really going to play word games and claim that angels AREN'T “living BEINGS”?
Will you claim that God is NOT a “living BEING” – just because that exact term is not used in scripture?Abe, are there any human BEINGS mentioned in the entire Bible? YES or NO?
Quote (kerwin @ May 11 2013,13:00) He can be called a spirit just like he is called a soul.
He can also METAPHORICALLY be called an “angel”, right?Kerwin, if that boy was called “an angel”, would you understand it to mean that he was not really a human, but one of God's spirit messengers who dwell in heaven? YES or NO?
You are playing games as well, Kerwin. I want a DIRECT answer to the following question:
In Hebrews 1:14, is Paul talking about HUMAN BEINGS, and METAPHORICALLY referring to them as “angels” and “spirits”? YES or NO?
Quote (kerwin @ May 11 2013,13:00) Quote He is a gentle spirit, and an absolute love with people of all ages. I have not ever heard it used about evil spirits in the English language.
What the freak are you talking about? Your own English words just referred to evil spirits as “evil spirits”! Quote (kerwin @ May 11 2013,13:18) There is seven possible though some can be eliminated because the passage is clearly speaking of males. There is nothing in the context that supports selecting angels.
Kerwin,You are out of your mind. The verse says the sons of God came unto the daughters of adam.
Are you saying that it COULD BE understood as “the sons of adam came unto the daughters of adam”?
What would be noteworthy about that? Haven't the sons of adam been coming to the daughters of adam from the time God created Adam and Eve?
Are you blind? Can you not realize the CONTRAST between “sons of God” and “daughters of adam” in those two verses?
BTW, out of your seven possibilities, ALL OF THEM fit “angel of God”.
Also, how did you conclude that the “sons of God” in Job WERE angels? Gene doesn't think they were. So how do YOU know they were?
And finally, WHY AREN'T you talking to Gene about THAT? In this thread, we have you, me, Abe, and Gene all discussing whether or not angels are “spirits”, or “spirit BEINGS”.
And although both you and Abe DO believe they ARE spirits, all I see is you two arguing AGAINST ME – instead of TEACHING Gene. Why is that? Why do you insist on playing word games with ME, when WE believe the SAME thing…………… instead of helping me to TEACH Gene?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2013,09:40) Quote (abe @ May 11 2013,11:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2013,17:58) Well Kerwin, Are angels “beings”? Of course. Even Gene acknowledges this.
Hi Mike,Why is it so important to YOU to use the term BEING? You are adding to the Scripture.
Peace
Abe,Do you ONLY use scriptural words to explain the Bible? For example, have you EVER IN YOUR LIFE used the term “human being”? Is that term actually IN the Bible?
Come on, man. I use the term “being” to relate what I'm talking about. Every commentator or scholar or secular writer known to man understands that God is a BEING. A BEING is someone who has his own mind, will, thoughts, power, @ etc.*
Are you really going to play word games and claim that angels AREN'T “living BEINGS”?
Will you claim that God is NOT a “living BEING” – just because that exact term is not used in scripture?Abe, are there any human BEINGS mentioned in the entire Bible? YES or NO?
Hi Mike,Gen.2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up its place with flesh;
22And from the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his Mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be One Flesh.How many human beings are Here ?
Gen.1:26 And God said, Let us make man in OUR image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.Gen.2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Ex.3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Rom.4:17 (As it is written, I have made you a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead, and calls those things which are not as though they were.
Peace brother.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2013,23:47) Quote (kerwin @ May 11 2013,13:00) He can be called a spirit just like he is called a soul.
He can also METAPHORICALLY be called an “angel”, right?Kerwin, if that boy was called “an angel”, would you understand it to mean that he was not really a human, but one of God's spirit messengers who dwell in heaven? YES or NO?
You are playing games as well, Kerwin. I want a DIRECT answer to the following question:
In Hebrews 1:14, is Paul talking about HUMAN BEINGS, and METAPHORICALLY referring to them as “angels” and “spirits”? YES or NO?
Quote (kerwin @ May 11 2013,13:00) Quote He is a gentle spirit, and an absolute love with people of all ages. I have not ever heard it used about evil spirits in the English language.
What the freak are you talking about? Your own English words just referred to evil spirits as “evil spirits”!
Mike,Paul(?) is referring to angels by the type of spirit they have.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 11 2013,21:30) Abe……..Horns in revelations to me are symbols of powers used in exercising those seven spirits of God. Spirits produce cognate intellects in all living things causing there effects in the bodies they are in. Horns in revelation seems to symbolize powers , like various kingdoms powers, are illustrated as. So I concluded they also represent powers in that verse also. A spirit without some form of power source can do little. Even the spirits in us if it wasn't for our bodies could do nothing , it is the spirits that guide the power sources they are in. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Hi Gene,I think Spirits don't have a soul. The Lamp stands means the body of the Spirits. The Lamb is the Soul of the Body.
What do you think?Peace brother.
Abe………. Makes good sense, the lamps could very well represent the body contaning the seven spirits of God. I also believe, in order to be a Living Soul requires a Body of some kind, The combination of a body and Spirit , is what I consider a “living” Soul. But there is also the idea of a Complete Person or being , as God who is spirit, said His “Soul” hated some things, But if we consider YAHWEH as the person and his seven Spirit, his mental Makeup, that guides and councils him , then we can have, a Body that is with spirits also, even when considering YAHWEH the LORD our GOD. Then there is also the idea, that God ,who is spirit, Live vicariously IN and though his Physical Creation, So the things created in which he Lives in could be considered his body, espically if His will is being done in those bodies.
Just speculating, i am not preaching any of that as dogma just speculation is all, I am still learning myself. What you have said about the Lamps representing bodies is very good brother, i agree with that.
Scripture does seem to say when a body is separated from it's spirit, that “PERSON” is considered as dead, or life less. “for when a man dies his thoughts Parish”, it says. Many think there are three part of man, a body, a soul , and a spirit, i personally do not believe that , i believe it just a body with spirit “IN” it , that makes up a Living Soul. Separate the spirit from the body and that person no longer exists, that is why, to me, a Resurrection of our Bodies is necessary in order for us to continue to live. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………….gene
Quote (abe @ May 12 2013,19:29) Hi Mike, Gen.2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up its place with flesh;
22And from the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his Mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be One Flesh.How many human beings are Here ?
Let's see……………. Adam, plus Eve, equals TWO human beings, Abe.Why? How many human beings do YOU count?
Quote (kerwin @ May 12 2013,20:04) Paul(?) is referring to angels by the type of spirit they have.
Paul doesn't say angels HAVE ministering spirits. He says they ARE ministering spirits.Kerwin, since we know Paul is talking about REAL angels, and angels ARE spirit beings, is there any reason to think he was only METAPHORICALLY calling them “spirits” in Hebrews 1:14?
And what about the scripture Abe posted, Kerwin?
Hebrews 1:7
And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”Does that verse say that God's angels are spirits?
I seriously don't know why I'm even bothering with this word game crap. You and Abe already both agree with me that angels are indeed spirit beings.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2013,11:06) Quote (kerwin @ May 12 2013,20:04) Paul(?) is referring to angels by the type of spirit they have.
Paul doesn't say angels HAVE ministering spirits. He says they ARE ministering spirits.Kerwin, since we know Paul is talking about REAL angels, and angels ARE spirit beings, is there any reason to think he was only METAPHORICALLY calling them “spirits” in Hebrews 1:14?
And what about the scripture Abe posted, Kerwin?
Hebrews 1:7
And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”Does that verse say that God's angels are spirits?
I seriously don't know why I'm even bothering with this word game crap. You and Abe already both agree with me that angels are indeed spirit beings.
Mike………Yes God makes his angels spirits, he makes our spirits also, he also makes his ministers a flaming fire. Do you also believe minister are literal flames of fire, why are you not preaching that also Mike.So your view is angels are spirit “beings”, and minsters must then be flames of fire, right? But one problem I know no one who has seen a flaming fire minister have you?, I also know no one who has seen a spirit have you ? I also know Jesus said after his resurrection from the dead he was not a spirit and he said he had a flesh and bone body.
I do know people have seen angels in scripture and guess what, they had visible bodies, they even ate food and those bodies had spirits “IN” them, just as our bodies have spirits in them. You have not one scripture that says Angels do not have bodies, not one. You have no scripture that says spirits are bodies themselves. Pure speculation on your part. It's not a word crap word game your dealing with, it's the truth you can't seem to deal with. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 13 2013,18:45) Mike………Yes God makes his angels spirits, he makes our spirits also……..
The words don't say “God makes the spirits OF the angels”, Gene. The word “aggelos” is not written in the genitive form. Therefore it cannot mean what you think it means.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 13 2013,18:45) Do you also believe minister are literal flames of fire, why are you not preaching that also Mike.
I didn't think I had to preach it, Gene. I thought everyone already knew this fact……….Exodus 3:2
And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush………..Judges 13:20
As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame.2 Kings 6:17
And Elisha prayed, “Open his eyes, Lord, so that he may see.” Then the Lord opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.Ezekiel 1:13
The appearance of the living creatures was like burning coals of fire or like torches.Ezekiel 8:2
I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire……….Daniel 10:6
…….and his eyes as lamps of fire………Revelation 19:12
His eyes were as a flame of fire………….All of the above refer to various ministers of Jehovah, Gene.
Mike……….The understanding of the wording used there is God makes his minister flames of fire , is just saying God ministers are intense Judges , it has nothing to do with a literal flame of fire it is a metaphor , surely you do know that don't you?
Peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
I've shown you scriptures that prove the words are literal, Gene.
Also, what is your response to knowing that the word “angels” is not genitive? Now that you know the words do NOT mean “God makes the spirits OF His angels” – what do you have to say?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 13 2013,00:00) Quote (kerwin @ May 11 2013,13:18) There is seven possible though some can be eliminated because the passage is clearly speaking of males. There is nothing in the context that supports selecting angels.
Kerwin,You are out of your mind. The verse says the sons of God came unto the daughters of adam.
Are you saying that it COULD BE understood as “the sons of adam came unto the daughters of adam”?
What would be noteworthy about that? Haven't the sons of adam been coming to the daughters of adam from the time God created Adam and Eve?
Are you blind? Can you not realize the CONTRAST between “sons of God” and “daughters of adam” in those two verses?
BTW, out of your seven possibilities, ALL OF THEM fit “angel of God”.
Also, how did you conclude that the “sons of God” in Job WERE angels? Gene doesn't think they were. So how do YOU know they were?
And finally, WHY AREN'T you talking to Gene about THAT? In this thread, we have you, me, Abe, and Gene all discussing whether or not angels are “spirits”, or “spirit BEINGS”.
And although both you and Abe DO believe they ARE spirits, all I see is you two arguing AGAINST ME – instead of TEACHING Gene. Why is that? Why do you insist on playing word games with ME, when WE believe the SAME thing…………… instead of helping me to TEACH Gene?
Mike,There was the line of Seth and the line of Cain at that time.
Which line showed they were not mere men by calling on the name of the Lord?
Which line was equivalent to the later line of Israel and so were called children of the most high?
1 Corinthians 3:3
King James Version (KJV)3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
Mike,
Quote Also, how did you conclude that the “sons of God” in Job WERE angels? Gene doesn't think they were. So how do YOU know they were? I didn't realize Gene made any such claim. I do know there seems to be both the Elohim that are called morning stars and those called the sons of God at the time of creation. Who, but the angels and God, were around at the time of creation?
Quote And finally, WHY AREN'T you talking to Gene about THAT? In this thread, we have you, me, Abe, and Gene all discussing whether or not angels are “spirits”, or “spirit BEINGS”. Angels are not spirits, in the sense of ghosts. They have a physical outer body, unlike ghosts. I am not presumptuous enough to declare what that physical body is composed of. A spiritual body is not a ghost body.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2013,08:37) I've shown you scriptures that prove the words are literal, Gene. Also, what is your response to knowing that the word “angels” is not genitive? Now that you know the words do NOT mean “God makes the spirits OF His angels” – what do you have to say?
Mike,Actually you are going by a translation of the Jewish words for both winds and messengers. I tend to think a poor translation as leaving them messengers and winds stay within the context. It is a poor translation that Hebrews chooses to use which means it is true, poor or not.
Hebrews 1:7 in contrasting Jesus anointed applies the words “Who maketh his angels spirits…”. That seems to imply that Jesus is not a spirit or there would be no contrast.
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