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Quote (Colter @ Mar. 13 2013,17:46) Quote (abe @ Mar. 14 2013,11:16) Quote (Colter @ Mar. 13 2013,11:54) Quote (abe @ Mar. 14 2013,05:56) Quote (Colter @ Mar. 13 2013,09:39) The creator Sons (Jesus, Christ-Michael) are the Fathers of the local universes. God, the first source and center, delegates creative power and administrative authority in his descending Sons of relative divinity. Our local universe administrator “Lucifer”, under the authority of Christ, embraced sin and lead a terrible rebellion against the rule of Christ and conceived the concept of a universal Father to be a fraud.
If Lucifer and Satan did not have such power then they could not have lead the whole world astray.
Colter
Hi Colter,The creator Sons (Jesus, Christ-Michael) are the Fathers of the local universes
Could you please explain?
Peace brother…..
Yes, Michael, now “Christ Michael” is the co-creator of our world. He incarnate as “Jesus”. He is a creator Son, the Father of our world.Colter
Hi Colter,(quote)
Our local universe administrator “Lucifer”, under the authority of Christ, embraced sin and lead a terrible rebellion against the rule of Christ and conceived the concept of a universal Father to be a fraud.under the authority of Christ,
Can you explain?
Peace brother….
It's a long, complicated and unusual story from the Urantia revelation but basically Lucifer, an eventuated being of the celestial world, also lived by Faith. He was a high administrator, a creation of the Son (Jesus Christ) like man is a creation.Lucifer fell in love with himself, with his own brilliance. He began to doubt the existence of the paradise Father. He lead an awful rebellion “there was war in heaven” (an ideological war) which took down 38 inhabited worlds out of the 10,000,000 that Jesus created.
Each evolutionary world like ours first receives a “planetary prince”, he is a resident spiritual administrator, a representative of the Son, of God visible only to his accompanying staff of super mortals. The name of ours was “Prince Caligastia” (after he fell into the sinful rebellion he was the crafty beast).
A clip from the Urantia revelation:
The Caligastia Betrayal
(754.2) 67:1.1 For three hundred thousand years Caligastia had been in charge of Urantia when Satan, Lucifer’s assistant, made one of his periodic inspection calls. And when Satan arrived on the planet, his appearance in no way resembled your caricatures of his nefarious majesty. He was, and still is, a Lanonandek Son of great brilliance. “And no marvel, for Satan himself is a brilliant creature of light.”
(754.3) 67:1.2 In the course of this inspection Satan informed Caligastia of Lucifer’s then proposed “Declaration of Liberty,” and as we now know, the Prince agreed to betray the planet upon the announcement of the rebellion. The loyal universe personalities look with peculiar disdain upon Prince Caligastia because of this premeditated betrayal of trust. The Creator Son voiced this contempt when he said: “You are like your leader, Lucifer, and you have sinfully perpetuated his iniquity. He was a falsifier from the beginning of his self-exaltation because he abode not in the truth.”
(754.4) 67:1.3 In all the administrative work of a local universe no high trust is deemed more sacred than that reposed in a Planetary Prince who assumes responsibility for the welfare and guidance of the evolving mortals on a newly inhabited world. And of all forms of evil, none are more destructive of personality status than betrayal of trust and disloyalty to one’s confiding friends. In committing this deliberate sin, Caligastia so completely distorted his personality that his mind has never since been able fully to regain its equilibrium.”
There is much more to the story but basically this all happened some 200,000 years ago, 160,000 years before Adam and Eve arrived and were also outflanked.
Cain was Able's half brother, he was the result of Eves real sin. Cains father “Cano” was a Nodite, from the land of Nod.
Colter
Hi Colter,I am sorry but I cant relate to your post.
Peace.
Quote (abe @ Mar. 14 2013,13:30) Hi Colter, I am sorry but I cant relate to your post.
Peace.
Your not alone there Abe
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 14 2013,08:10) 2beesee, My time is limited and I find it more useful to converse about ideas than read them.
Kerwin…………I believe you would find what Paul W. Newman wrote very helpful brother, it goes into detail of how the CHRISTOLOGY of Jesus greatly impacts our thinking of him as being a pure human being, verses some form of deity as the Trinitarians and Preexistences portray Jesus. It is a very well written and presented from a Scholarely stand point. It backs.up much of what we have been saying here. It gives a clear understanding of how the verious CHRISTOLOGIES of Jesus effects our perceptions of him.Peace and love to you and yours brother…………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 14 2013,10:31) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 14 2013,08:10) 2beesee, My time is limited and I find it more useful to converse about ideas than read them.
Kerwin…………I believe you would find what Paul W. Newman wrote very helpful brother, it goes into detail of how the CHRISTOLOGY of Jesus greatly impacts our thinking of him as being a pure human being, verses some form of deity as the Trinitarians and Preexistences portray Jesus. It is a very well written and presented from a Scholarely stand point. It backs.up much of what we have been saying here. It gives a clear understanding of how the verious CHRISTOLOGIES of Jesus effects our perceptions of him.Peace and love to you and yours brother…………………………..gene
Gene,Then perhaps it should be a topic in the writings thread.
Gene and Kerwin,
I have only skimmed it, it is interesting though (spirit christology I think it is called). It is good to have a name for it.Peace.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 14 2013,16:18) Gene and Kerwin,
I have only skimmed it, it is interesting though (spirit christology I think it is called). It is good to have a name for it.Peace.
2beesee,Spirit christology is a label applied to the tenet that Jesus has always been a spirit being without a physical body.
The Spirit is called both the Son and the Christ; but it is not a being; even though it has attributes of such.
The Spirit is to God even as a man's spirit is to him.
God's Word is revealed by his Spirit.
Jesus is a human soul in a human body who is made Christ and Son by the Spirit dwelling in him.
I believe that instead Mike holds to a variation of the Arian christology which holds that the Word, the Spokesman of God, came to dwell in soulish human flesh.
Paul of Samosata may well have been a follower of the Christ as Spirit in Jesus as human christology according to some.
Quote Paul did not say that it was the self-subsistent Word Who was in Christ,
but applied the title 'Word' to God's commandment and ordinance,
i.e. God ordered what He willed through the man, and so did it….
He did not say that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one and the same,
but gave the name of God to the Father Who created all things,
that of Son to the mere man, and that of Spirit to the grace
which indwelt the apostles.I am not sure what a defining label would be.
Here is my source.
Then what was Gabriel, where did he come from and how long has he existed?
If Gabriel can preexist and come down from heaven to announce the coming of the Son and what his name is to be then why can't a preexisting Son come down from heaven……especially in light of the fact that the Son was able to go back up and assume sovereign Lordship over creation?
Maybe the problem is that the things of God that some men can't understand get dumbed down into things that he can understand at the expense of more enlightened people.
There are shadows of plural deity in the OT scripture.
colter
Quote (Colter @ Mar. 14 2013,19:17) Then what was Gabriel, where did he come from and how long has he existed? If Gabriel can preexist and come down from heaven to announce the coming of the Son and what his name is to be then why can't a preexisting Son come down from heaven……especially in light of the fact that the Son was able to go back up and assume sovereign Lordship over creation?
Maybe the problem is that the things of God that some men can't understand get dumbed down into things that he can understand at the expense of more enlightened people.
There are shadows of plural deity in the OT scripture.
colter
Colter,Gabriel is a angel with the outer form that is like that of a human being. His body is both physical and Spiritual. His soul is an angel's as is his body. That is the body God gave to his kind. He is a humanoid, a creation of the heavens.
He was among one of God's first works who bore witness to creation. He is existing before Jesus was conceived.
Jesus is the one God both foreknew and predestined to be the chief anointed, the chief son of his Spirit.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 15 2013,02:09) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 14 2013,16:18) Gene and Kerwin,
I have only skimmed it, it is interesting though (spirit christology I think it is called). It is good to have a name for it.Peace.
2beesee,
Spirit christology is a label applied to the tenet that Jesus has always been a spirit being without a physical body.
The Spirit is called both the Son and the Christ; but it is not a being; even though it has attributes of such.
The Spirit is to God even as a man's spirit is to him.
God's Word is revealed by his Spirit.
Jesus is a human soul in a human body who is made Christ and Son by the Spirit dwelling in him.
I believe that instead Mike holds to a variation of the Arian christology which holds that the Word, the Spokesman of God, came to dwell in soulish human flesh.
Paul of Samosata may well have been a follower of the Christ as Spirit in Jesus as human christology according to some.
Quote Paul did not say that it was the self-subsistent Word Who was in Christ,
but applied the title 'Word' to God's commandment and ordinance,
i.e. God ordered what He willed through the man, and so did it….
He did not say that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one and the same,
but gave the name of God to the Father Who created all things,
that of Son to the mere man, and that of Spirit to the grace
which indwelt the apostles.I am not sure what a defining label would be.
Here is my source.
Thank you Kerwin. Well it appears that that is what i believe in then. As I was led.
Not too sure about the first line, but the rest is good.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 15 2013,08:57) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 15 2013,02:09) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 14 2013,16:18) Gene and Kerwin,
I have only skimmed it, it is interesting though (spirit christology I think it is called). It is good to have a name for it.Peace.
2beesee,
Spirit christology is a label applied to the tenet that Jesus has always been a spirit being without a physical body.
The Spirit is called both the Son and the Christ; but it is not a being; even though it has attributes of such.
The Spirit is to God even as a man's spirit is to him.
God's Word is revealed by his Spirit.
Jesus is a human soul in a human body who is made Christ and Son by the Spirit dwelling in him.
I believe that instead Mike holds to a variation of the Arian christology which holds that the Word, the Spokesman of God, came to dwell in soulish human flesh.
Paul of Samosata may well have been a follower of the Christ as Spirit in Jesus as human christology according to some.
Quote Paul did not say that it was the self-subsistent Word Who was in Christ,
but applied the title 'Word' to God's commandment and ordinance,
i.e. God ordered what He willed through the man, and so did it….
He did not say that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one and the same,
but gave the name of God to the Father Who created all things,
that of Son to the mere man, and that of Spirit to the grace
which indwelt the apostles.I am not sure what a defining label would be.
Here is my source.
Thank you Kerwin. Well it appears that that is what i believe in then. As I was led.
Not too sure about the first line, but the rest is good.
2beesee,The christology mentioned in the first line is nonsense.
Kerwin, Mike and all,
This is from Wikipedia: Notice in bold the earliest canon listed by Irenaeus –
A four gospel canon (the Tetramorph) was asserted by Irenaeus, c. 160, who referred to it directly. An insistence upon there being a canon of four gospels, and no others, was a central theme of Irenaeus of Lyons, c. 185. In his central work, Adversus Haereses Irenaeus denounced various early Christian groups that used only one gospel, such as Marcionism which used only Marcion's version of Luke, or the Ebionites which seem to have used an Aramaic version of Matthew, as well as groups that used more than four gospels, such as the Valentinians (A.H. 1.11). Irenaeus declared that the four he espoused were the four “Pillars of the Church”: “it is not possible that there can be either more or fewer than four” he stated, presenting as logic the analogy of the four corners of the earth and the four winds (3.11.8). His image, taken from Ezekiel 1, or Revelation 4:6-10, of God's throne borne by four creatures with four faces—”the four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and the four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle”—equivalent to the “four-formed” gospel, is the origin of the conventional symbols of the Evangelists: bull (Mark), man (Luke), eagle (John), lion (Matthew). Irenaeus was ultimately successful in declaring that the four gospels collectively, and exclusively these four, contained the truth. By reading each gospel in light of the others, Irenaeus made of John a lens through which to read Matthew, Mark and Luke.
Based on the arguments Irenaeus made in support of only four authentic gospels, some interpreters deduce that the fourfold Gospel must have still been a novelty in Irenaeus's time. Against Heresies 3.11.7 acknowledges that many heterodox Christians use only one gospel while 3.11.9 acknowledges that some use more than four. The success of Tatian's Diatessaron in about the same time period is “…a powerful indication that the fourfold Gospel contemporaneously sponsored by Irenaeus was not broadly, let alone universally, recognized.”
McDonald & Sanders, Appendix D-1, lists the following canon for Irenaeus, based on Eusebius' Church History 5.8.2-8, but notes that: “..it is probably nothing more than Eusebius's listing of the references made by Irenaeus.”:
- Matt, Mark, Luke, John, Rev 1 John, 1 Peter, Hermas, Wisdom, Paul (mentioned but epistles not listed)
—————-
Here is a quote from Wisdom (A book that is found in some bible versions but not all and was considered N.T canon by the earliest church)… Quote:
Wisdom – Chapter 1
From the New Jerusalem Bible.1 Love uprightness you who are rulers on earth, be properly disposed towards the Lord and seek him in simplicity of heart;
2 for he will be found by those who do not put him to the test, revealing himself to those who do not mistrust him.
3 Perverse thoughts, however, separate people from God, and power, when put to the test, confounds the stupid.
4 Wisdom will never enter the soul of a wrong-doer, nor dwell in a body enslaved to sin;
5 for the holy spirit of instruction flees deceitfulness, recoils from unintelligent thoughts, is thwarted by the onset of vice.
6 Wisdom is a spirit friendly to humanity, though she will not let a blasphemer's words go unpunished; since God observes the very soul and accurately surveys the heart, listening to every word.
7 For the spirit of the Lord fills the world, and that which holds everything together knows every word said.'
It seems that there is more agreement.
..Don't forget “Hermas” (also canon in the earliest church)..
Quote:
Fifth Similitude:
………………..The field is this world; and the Lord of the field is He who created, and perfected, and strengthened all things; and the son is the Holy Spirit………………….The holy, pre-existent Spirit, that created every creature, God made to dwell in flesh, which He chose. This flesh, accordingly, in which the Holy Spirit dwelt, was nobly subject to that Spirit, walking religiously and chastely, in no respect defiling the Spirit; and accordingly, after living excellently and purely, and after labouring and co-operating with the Spirit, and having in everything acted vigorously and courageously along with the Holy Spirit, He assumed it as a partner with it.
For this conduct of the flesh pleased Him, because it was not defiled on the earth while having the Holy Spirit.
He took, therefore, as fellow-councillors His Son and the glorious angels, in order that this flesh, which had been subject to the body without a fault, might have some place of tabernacle, and that it might not appear that the reward [of its servitude had been lost], for the flesh that has been found without spot or defilement, in which the Holy Spirit dwelt, [will receive a reward].SOURCE and available elsewhere over the net.
No matter what other writings people pull out, none of them were listed as canon by the earliest church, where these were, and they agree..
Kerwin, I can only talk about something for so long, otherwise it becomes the bore to any listeners, including ourselves. I leanrt heaps though.
Thanks all (:
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 15 2013,13:57) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 15 2013,02:09) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 14 2013,16:18) Gene and Kerwin,
I have only skimmed it, it is interesting though (spirit christology I think it is called). It is good to have a name for it.Peace.
2beesee,
Spirit christology is a label applied to the tenet that Jesus has always been a spirit being without a physical body.
The Spirit is called both the Son and the Christ; but it is not a being; even though it has attributes of such.
The Spirit is to God even as a man's spirit is to him.
God's Word is revealed by his Spirit.
Jesus is a human soul in a human body who is made Christ and Son by the Spirit dwelling in him.
I believe that instead Mike holds to a variation of the Arian christology which holds that the Word, the Spokesman of God, came to dwell in soulish human flesh.
Paul of Samosata may well have been a follower of the Christ as Spirit in Jesus as human christology according to some.
Quote Paul did not say that it was the self-subsistent Word Who was in Christ,
but applied the title 'Word' to God's commandment and ordinance,
i.e. God ordered what He willed through the man, and so did it….
He did not say that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one and the same,
but gave the name of God to the Father Who created all things,
that of Son to the mere man, and that of Spirit to the grace
which indwelt the apostles.I am not sure what a defining label would be.
Here is my source.
Thank you Kerwin. Well it appears that that is what i believe in then. As I was led.
Not too sure about the first line, but the rest is good.
2besee and Kerwin………..Newman describes these Christologies and there effects on believers is excellently put forth, i believe , it shows how these false christologies effect the mind of those seekng God and a proper understand of Jesus as a Man or a preexistent being of somekind, and the false effect of the Trinity teachings. I believe it to be a very good presentation of true facts brothers.peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 12 2013,21:59) Common experience tells us that wisdom comes forth from within a person and in that sense, wisdom is born. So, whenever you read in scripture that wisdom has come forth in some way, metaphorically it was born.
I disagree. Wisdom can be displayed by many people, but it isn't “brought forth from within them” in the sense of being born.So it seems that only in Prov 8 do we hear about wisdom “being born”, right? At least that's the only one I know about off hand.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 17 2013,13:36) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 12 2013,21:59) Common experience tells us that wisdom comes forth from within a person and in that sense, wisdom is born. So, whenever you read in scripture that wisdom has come forth in some way, metaphorically it was born.
I disagree. Wisdom can be displayed by many people, but it isn't “brought forth from within them” in the sense of being born.So it seems that only in Prov 8 do we hear about wisdom “being born”, right? At least that's the only one I know about off hand.
Mike,Quote I have already said that with the Greeks reason gave birth to wisdom, and wisdom brought them the recognition and conviction that true reality must not be sought in the world inherited from the dead gods, but in the ideal world created by that reason which had become heir to the rights of the gods. Quote
Three creations preceded the making of the world: water, wind (spirit) and fire. Water conceived and gave birth to thick darkness, fire conceived and gave birth to light, wind (spirit) conceived and gave birth to wisdom. The world is maintained by means of these six creations: by wind (spirit), wisdom, fire, light, darkness and water.I am using this page and this page to establish that the idea of x giving birth to wisdom, where x is a variable of concepts, is known among the Jews and the Greeks.
Kerwin,
I am asking Kathi for any SCRIPTURES (besides Prov 8) that speak of wisdom being created, or being born.
Do you know of any?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2013,09:18) Kerwin, I am asking Kathi for any SCRIPTURES (besides Prov 8) that speak of wisdom being created, or being born.
Do you know of any?
Mike,Proverbs 8:25 is the only place I know of and the LXX uses the word “gennaō”. “gennaō” is used in the figurative sense in relation to Jehovah begetting the Israeli nation, Deuteronomy 32:18; Isaiah 1:2.
My point was to show that the Greeks and Jews of that time used equivilent figurative language.
Here is my source.
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