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Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2013,17:59) …and it's God's HolySpirit that makes us son's of God. (ref. Rom 8:15)
God's Holy Spirit? Or God? Oh that's right, to you they are one and the same.I still find it fascinating how you insist the Holy Spirit IS God, but then write “God's Holy Spirit”. It's like you are saying “God's God”.
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2013,17:43) Hi Mike, Doesn't it disturb you that “WISDOM” is spoken of as a “She” rather than a “He”?
“Spirit” is also spoken of as a “She” and wisdom is justified of all her children.
From Wiki:
……the grammatical gender of the word “spirit” is masculine in Latin (“spiritus”) and in Latin-derived languages, as also, for instance, in the German language (“Geist”), while in the Semitic languages such as Hebrew (“רוח”), Aramaic and its descendant Syriac, it is feminine, and in Greek it is neuter (“πνεῦμα”). If speakers of a particular language were to confuse grammatical gender with physical gender, they might then think of the Holy Spirit as male, female or of neither sex, but such confusion does not of course affect the reality of the gender or lack of gender of the Spirit.From <a href="http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?78831-Does-the-gender-of-a-Hebrew-or-Greek-Word-indicate-the-sex-of-an-indi
vidual” target=”_blank”>TheologyWeb:
Greek and Hebrew words are highly inflected. Even Spanish has the concept of gender. La mesa is a femine word in Spanish but a table is not female.
Likewise in Hebrew and Greek. Ruach in Hebrew is feminine but we do not consider the holy spirit to be a female. “Congregator” in Hebrew was applied to Solomon and it is a femine word but Solomon was not female.
All words in Hebrew and Greek have either a masculine, feminine or neuter gender, but this does not dictate the sex of one who has a title related to a word that has grammatical gender.
The same is true for the Hebrew word HacMah or wisdom. Any who would use this argument for wisdom being a women must also consider the spirit of God to be female.
So “NO”, it doesn't disturb me that the Hebrew word for “spirit” is feminine, and according to their grammar, feminine verbs and pronouns are used with it. The Holy Spirit doesn't have to be a female, and neither does the wisdom in Proverbs 8.
Mike and Edj,
I think that Hebrew words are either masculine or feminine. There is no neuter gender, from what I understand.This verse caught my attention with the masculine pronoun for the Holy Spirit. It is listed as masculine in the interlinear tool.
John 16:13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 10 2013,14:28) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,03:09) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,21:56) Mike, 1. Wisdom is born in the sense of 'brought forth' throughout scripture.
2. Wisdom is not created out of nothing, anywhere in scripture.
3. Wisdom has to be within someone before it can be brought forth, otherwise it is just a good guess.
1. Give me a scripture.2. Anything that is “born” is also a “creation”, Kathi.
3. This is just you saying things. And the thing you said doesn't even make sense to me.
Kathi, you are just doing your same old, same old. You are trying to distinguish between being “born” and being “created”. You do it with Jesus. And now you're trying to do it with the wisdom in Prov 8 because you know that also refers to Jesus………….. and you simply don't WANT Jesus to have been created.
You fault NETNotes, but that is just because it irks you that they also can see the obvious fact that anything that is born is also created. That's why they say the wording of “given birth” and “born” argue FOR the translation of “create” in verse 22.
Quote
1. Give me a scripture.Oh brother! If wisdom is given at any time, it is brought forth from within. Do you really not understand that?
Mike,
I was saying that wisdom is 'brought forth' which has the idea of 'born.' When wisdom is given, it is 'brought forth.'Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2013,16:24) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2013,17:43) Hi Mike, Doesn't it disturb you that “WISDOM” is spoken of as a “She” rather than a “He”?
“Spirit” is also spoken of as a “She” and wisdom is justified of all her children.
From Wiki:
……the grammatical gender of the word “spirit” is masculine in Latin (“spiritus”) and in Latin-derived languages, as also, for instance, in the German language (“Geist”), while in the Semitic languages such as Hebrew (“רוח”), Aramaic and its descendant Syriac, it is feminine, and in Greek it is neuter (“πνεῦμα”). If speakers of a particular language were to confuse grammatical gender with physical gender, they might then think of the Holy Spirit as male, female or of neither sex, but such confusion does not of course affect the reality of the gender or lack of gender of the Spirit.From <a href="http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?78831-Does-the-gender-of-a-Hebrew-or-Greek-Word-indicate-the-sex-of-an-indi
vidual” target=”_blank”>TheologyWeb:
Greek and Hebrew words are highly inflected. Even Spanish has the concept of gender. La mesa is a femine word in Spanish but a table is not female.
Likewise in Hebrew and Greek. Ruach in Hebrew is feminine but we do not consider the holy spirit to be a female. “Congregator” in Hebrew was applied to Solomon and it is a femine word but Solomon was not female.
All words in Hebrew and Greek have either a masculine, feminine or neuter gender, but this does not dictate the sex of one who has a title related to a word that has grammatical gender.
The same is true for the Hebrew word HacMah or wisdom. Any who would use this argument for wisdom being a women must also consider the spirit of God to be female.
So “NO”, it doesn't disturb me that the Hebrew word for “spirit” is feminine, and according to their grammar, feminine verbs and pronouns are used with it. The Holy Spirit doesn't have to be a female, and neither does the wisdom in Proverbs 8.
Hi Mike,Gal.3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Peace brother.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 12 2013,19:48) This verse caught my attention with the masculine pronoun for the Holy Spirit. It is listed as masculine in the interlinear tool. John 16:13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
That Wiki source above says “spirit” is neuter in the Greek language.Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 12 2013,19:58) Mike,
I was saying that wisdom is 'brought forth' which has the idea of 'born.'
You are correct that, many times, “brought forth” means “born”.To which scripture(s) are you referring? Do they contain the Hebrew word “yalad”?
Mike,
Spirit is a neuter word in the Greek, that is why John 16:13 caught my attention…the gender of the two pronouns that I bolded are masculine though..Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2013,22:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 12 2013,19:58) Mike,
I was saying that wisdom is 'brought forth' which has the idea of 'born.'
You are correct that, many times, “brought forth” means “born”.To which scripture(s) are you referring? Do they contain the Hebrew word “yalad”?
Why 'yalad?' I don't see 'yalad' in Prov. 8, do you? Anyway, I don't see wisdom in connection with the word translated as born in Prov 8 except in Prov 8 but the Englishman's concordance is limited that I use on Bible.cc. So I haven't done an exhaustive search. Common experience tells us that wisdom comes forth from within a person and in that sense, wisdom is born. So, whenever you read in scripture that wisdom has come forth in some way, metaphorically it was born.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 13 2013,05:04) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2013,04:11) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,15:27)
Kerwin, do you believe the Holy Spirit is ONE Son of God, and Jesus is a completely DIFFERENT Son of God?
Mike,Your question is vague. What do you mean by “Son “?
As for me, the Holy Spirit is the Son of God in the same sense Wisdom is the Daughter of God.
Okay Kerwin. So is Jesus a DIFFERENT Son of God than the Holy Spirit is? Are they BOTH “Sons of God”?
Mike,Both are the Son of God, but each in a different way.
The Spirit is the Son of God because it is derived from Jehovah.
Jesus is the Son because his Spirit is God's Spirit and Jehovah is the originator.
The two do not conflict but instead work in unity.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 12 2013,20:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2013,15:09) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 10 2013,23:06) Hi Mike and all, I would like to move on now. What I would like to look at is: What is Jesus Now? i.e. AFTER the resurrection.
So I will start up a new thread, perhaps?
Yes 2B,Please start a thread called, The Holy Spirit is the Son of God.
Mike, No!
Quote I was going to ask this today: Are Jesus and the Holy Spirit STILL separate sons of God, now that Jesus is in heaven? Or have they somehow merged into the original Holy Spirit Son? But we can discuss that on the other thread.
I do not know the answer to that question, which is why I would like to start up a new thread on that, perhaps.
I believe that when the Holy Spirit was in Jesus, the two were 'as if one'.
I have also found a name for this belief. It is called Spirit Christology.
(For anybody who is interested (KERWIN/GENE), this is what I have been reading tonight:
http://books.google.co.nz/books?i….f=false
I hope that link works. Google book links do not often work. It is called “Foundations for a Hispanic Pentecostal Christology” by “Sammy G. Alfaro”
And Paul Newman:
http://www.web-theology.net/linked/a%20spirit%20christology.pdf
Interesting (From what I have read so far, anyway))
2besee……..I am reading the book by Paul W. Newman , about CHRISTOLOGY and do agree with his findings it clarifies may questions we confront here. I ask Mike to read it , I think it might help him understand the deception in CHRISTOLOGY .Thanks for the info brother.
Peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
The creator Sons (Jesus, Christ-Michael) are the Fathers of the local universes. God, the first source and center, delegates creative power and administrative authority in his descending Sons of relative divinity.
Our local universe administrator “Lucifer”, under the authority of Christ, embraced sin and lead a terrible rebellion against the rule of Christ and conceived the concept of a universal Father to be a fraud.
If Lucifer and Satan did not have such power then they could not have lead the whole world astray.
Colter
Quote (Colter @ Mar. 13 2013,09:39) The creator Sons (Jesus, Christ-Michael) are the Fathers of the local universes. God, the first source and center, delegates creative power and administrative authority in his descending Sons of relative divinity. Our local universe administrator “Lucifer”, under the authority of Christ, embraced sin and lead a terrible rebellion against the rule of Christ and conceived the concept of a universal Father to be a fraud.
If Lucifer and Satan did not have such power then they could not have lead the whole world astray.
Colter
Hi Colter,The creator Sons (Jesus, Christ-Michael) are the Fathers of the local universes
Could you please explain?
Peace brother…..
Quote (abe @ Mar. 14 2013,05:56) Quote (Colter @ Mar. 13 2013,09:39) The creator Sons (Jesus, Christ-Michael) are the Fathers of the local universes. God, the first source and center, delegates creative power and administrative authority in his descending Sons of relative divinity. Our local universe administrator “Lucifer”, under the authority of Christ, embraced sin and lead a terrible rebellion against the rule of Christ and conceived the concept of a universal Father to be a fraud.
If Lucifer and Satan did not have such power then they could not have lead the whole world astray.
Colter
Hi Colter,The creator Sons (Jesus, Christ-Michael) are the Fathers of the local universes
Could you please explain?
Peace brother…..
Yes, Michael, now “Christ Michael” is the co-creator of our world. He incarnate as “Jesus”. He is a creator Son, the Father of our world.Colter
Quote (Colter @ Mar. 13 2013,11:54) Quote (abe @ Mar. 14 2013,05:56) Quote (Colter @ Mar. 13 2013,09:39) The creator Sons (Jesus, Christ-Michael) are the Fathers of the local universes. God, the first source and center, delegates creative power and administrative authority in his descending Sons of relative divinity. Our local universe administrator “Lucifer”, under the authority of Christ, embraced sin and lead a terrible rebellion against the rule of Christ and conceived the concept of a universal Father to be a fraud.
If Lucifer and Satan did not have such power then they could not have lead the whole world astray.
Colter
Hi Colter,The creator Sons (Jesus, Christ-Michael) are the Fathers of the local universes
Could you please explain?
Peace brother…..
Yes, Michael, now “Christ Michael” is the co-creator of our world. He incarnate as “Jesus”. He is a creator Son, the Father of our world.Colter
Hi Colter,(quote)
Our local universe administrator “Lucifer”, under the authority of Christ, embraced sin and lead a terrible rebellion against the rule of Christ and conceived the concept of a universal Father to be a fraud.under the authority of Christ,
Can you explain?
Peace brother….
Quote (abe @ Mar. 14 2013,11:16) Quote (Colter @ Mar. 13 2013,11:54) Quote (abe @ Mar. 14 2013,05:56) Quote (Colter @ Mar. 13 2013,09:39) The creator Sons (Jesus, Christ-Michael) are the Fathers of the local universes. God, the first source and center, delegates creative power and administrative authority in his descending Sons of relative divinity. Our local universe administrator “Lucifer”, under the authority of Christ, embraced sin and lead a terrible rebellion against the rule of Christ and conceived the concept of a universal Father to be a fraud.
If Lucifer and Satan did not have such power then they could not have lead the whole world astray.
Colter
Hi Colter,The creator Sons (Jesus, Christ-Michael) are the Fathers of the local universes
Could you please explain?
Peace brother…..
Yes, Michael, now “Christ Michael” is the co-creator of our world. He incarnate as “Jesus”. He is a creator Son, the Father of our world.Colter
Hi Colter,(quote)
Our local universe administrator “Lucifer”, under the authority of Christ, embraced sin and lead a terrible rebellion against the rule of Christ and conceived the concept of a universal Father to be a fraud.under the authority of Christ,
Can you explain?
Peace brother….
It's a long, complicated and unusual story from the Urantia revelation but basically Lucifer, an eventuated being of the celestial world, also lived by Faith. He was a high administrator, a creation of the Son (Jesus Christ) like man is a creation.Lucifer fell in love with himself, with his own brilliance. He began to doubt the existence of the paradise Father. He lead an awful rebellion “there was war in heaven” (an ideological war) which took down 38 inhabited worlds out of the 10,000,000 that Jesus created.
Each evolutionary world like ours first receives a “planetary prince”, he is a resident spiritual administrator, a representative of the Son, of God visible only to his accompanying staff of super mortals. The name of ours was “Prince Caligastia” (after he fell into the sinful rebellion he was the crafty beast).
A clip from the Urantia revelation:
The Caligastia Betrayal
(754.2) 67:1.1 For three hundred thousand years Caligastia had been in charge of Urantia when Satan, Lucifer’s assistant, made one of his periodic inspection calls. And when Satan arrived on the planet, his appearance in no way resembled your caricatures of his nefarious majesty. He was, and still is, a Lanonandek Son of great brilliance. “And no marvel, for Satan himself is a brilliant creature of light.”
(754.3) 67:1.2 In the course of this inspection Satan informed Caligastia of Lucifer’s then proposed “Declaration of Liberty,” and as we now know, the Prince agreed to betray the planet upon the announcement of the rebellion. The loyal universe personalities look with peculiar disdain upon Prince Caligastia because of this premeditated betrayal of trust. The Creator Son voiced this contempt when he said: “You are like your leader, Lucifer, and you have sinfully perpetuated his iniquity. He was a falsifier from the beginning of his self-exaltation because he abode not in the truth.”
(754.4) 67:1.3 In all the administrative work of a local universe no high trust is deemed more sacred than that reposed in a Planetary Prince who assumes responsibility for the welfare and guidance of the evolving mortals on a newly inhabited world. And of all forms of evil, none are more destructive of personality status than betrayal of trust and disloyalty to one’s confiding friends. In committing this deliberate sin, Caligastia so completely distorted his personality that his mind has never since been able fully to regain its equilibrium.”
There is much more to the story but basically this all happened some 200,000 years ago, 160,000 years before Adam and Eve arrived and were also outflanked.
Cain was Able's half brother, he was the result of Eves real sin. Cains father “Cano” was a Nodite, from the land of Nod.
Colter
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2013,12:49) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 10 2013,11:31) Hi Mike, God's Holy Spirit (ALL BY ITSELF) actually conceived the Son of God in Mary.
DO YOU BELIEVE THIS OR NOT?
“OR NOT”, Ed.No, I don't believe that.
Sorry, I guess I got it worded wrong.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2013,13:05) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 10 2013,16:48) Hi Ed, Can God not cause a virgin to conceive through the power of the Holy Spirit……. ?
Absolutely God can……. and DID!But even though I don't agree with Ed that the Holy Spirit OF God IS the very God it is OF, his point still stands.
You are saying that God caused Jesus to be conceived in Mary THROUGH His own Son – the Holy Spirit.
Wouldn't that make Jesus a GRANDSON of God, and not a SON of God?
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