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hey t8,
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I think that all this technology will be used against us in the end however. The AntiChrist will sit on a throne and through technology he will control peoples lives. Technology that terrorism helped to create will be used against us and those who do not accept the mark could perhaps be looked upon as potential terrorists.agreed, but i think that “empire builders” have always been thus inclined – most wars of the last hundred years have been used to test newly-developed weaponry… but more than that, these empire builders seem intent on indoctrinating us into the idea that it is only through war that we can “conquer evil” or “injustice” or whatver you want to call it…
remember the movie “the peacemakers” (1998?)with nicole kidman and george cloony? that was proposed and partially funded but the us defense thinktank to raise awareness about the threat of terrorism… then there's the highly inaccurate “black hawk down” (2002?). i'm not sure if the book is the same, but the director relied on the us defence department as logistic and background advisors, and as a result the movie presents another “terrorist” threat, when in actual fact it was the american military who became the terrorists, though they were only supposed to be there to keep the peace while the un were mediating peace talks between the warlords…
is it any wonder that people will willingly follow the beast? they're presented on a daily basis through media and government sources, a false sense of reality – especially through patriotism and political correctness… they will gladly kill innocent people in foreign lands, and then justify it by saying they're doing god's work!!??
oh well – enough of that…
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I went to one of Barry's meetings and he said a lot of things that didn't come to pass. But he was also very strict with preaching the gospel and he always got a lot of responses when he preached the gospel too. Somethings he said were also very true and did require insight however.hmm… but do you think he was using fear? you know – the end of the world, the great tribulation, etc… there was a show (it might still be going) called “heaven's gates, hell's flames” – and the whole thing is just a series of skits where the person who goes to church, also goes to heaven, but the person who does good and does not go to church, ends up in hell… this is also very successful in getting responses, but is it lasting fruit? if perfect love casts out all fear, i don't understand how we can use fear to provoke a response in people and then say that we love them?
what a day for bugbears!! in one go, you brought up all my favourites… hehehe… momving on though…
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r u from NZ?i wish!! i'm from a little-known american state called australia… you might've heard of us?? it's all true… sadly…
cheers,
nate.
Quote (Guest @ Sep. 24 2004,16:37) hmm… but do you think he was using fear? you know – the end of the world, the great tribulation, etc… there was a show (it might still be going) called “heaven's gates, hell's flames” – and the whole thing is just a series of skits where the person who goes to church, also goes to heaven, but the person who does good and does not go to church, ends up in hell… this is also very successful in getting responses, but is it lasting fruit? if perfect love casts out all fear, i don't understand how we can use fear to provoke a response in people and then say that we love them? Yeah true and we are told to make disciples. So who knows how many are disciples today. He talked about the Beast, but his message didn't scare me. Maybe I am a tough dude?
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r u from NZ?i wish!! i'm from a little-known american state called australia… you might've heard of us?? it's all true… sadly…
cheers,
nate.Oh yeah I've heard of you, we call you West Island. BTW I am from the NZ's North Island.
he he
Also: don't take it personally but this is my 666 post.
hey t8,
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Also: don't take it personally but this is my 666 postquick, say something else!!
hehehe…
Hi t8,
“if there is a Rapture”There will be as it is the hope of the end times to be rescued from God's wrath that is the destiny of most sadly.
Jn 11.25
“I am the resurrection and the life.,he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and EVERYONE WHO LIVES AND BELIEVES IN ME SHALL NEVER DIE.do you believe this?”Yes I believe that.
I was wondering if we are taken before or at the end.
I think that there will be a translation of those who are in Christ and ready, perhaps before the Tribulation or during it.
I haven't really looked into it in depth, but I know there is debate about the timing of this. Pre, Mid, Post etc.
I was wondering if there is also a rapture (blessed hope) as apposed to a salvation at end of the age. Or are they the same thing. Of course the dead in Christ will rise first. It also looks possible that the dead have and are being risen now.
My thoughts are that we are taken mid Tribulation [7 yrs]at Rev 12.5 before the wrath of God is expressed on earth.
That seems logical to me too. But the only prob I see here is that we could know the day and hour? Or is the day and hour for the return of Christ only?
Hi Guys, I'm definately pre-trib. I expect Jesus to return at any time and I think this position harmonises well with the undercurrent of imminence that runs through the NT (1 Th 5:2, 1 Th 5:4, 2 Pe 3:10, Rv 2:16, Rv 3:3, Rv 16:15, Rv 22:12, Rv 22:20). I believe these scriptures, as well as Matt 24:36,42, do not refer to the return of Jesus in Rev 19:11-16 but instead refer to the pre-tribulation harpazo. Heres why:
1. Jesus tells us that the day of His return cannot be known (by us) and that we should expect Him at any time. This infers there will be no precurser warning signs to Him coming back.
2. In Matthew 24:15 Jesus points to an event that is prominent in the Tribulation, namely the Abomination of Desolation (AOD). Daniel 9:27 tells us that this occurs at the midpoint of the tribulation week, i.e. after 3.5 years.
3. Daniel elaborates more on this event in Ch 12:11,12. In these verses Daniel goes to great lengths to ascribe a numerical value to the interveining period of time between the AOD and the events at the very end of the age, climaxing of course with the return of Jesus.
4. Therefore, Jesus' return as described in Rev 19 is knowable, to the day. It will occur 1290 days after the AOD.
The 'unknowable' day of His return therefore must be a different event. Otherwise there would be a contradiction between what Jesus tells us (expect me at any time) and His signposted return (with the AOD being the signpost).
If the church is removed before the tribulation, as describled in 1 Cor 15:51, 52 and 1 Thess 4:15-17, then this is not an issue because His return will still be perpetually imminent, and His word not broken.
Also consider this: The great tribulation is described as being the time of wrath, the Wrath of the Lamb etc. Why would the church be the subject of His wrath? This doesn't make any sense to me. Paul, addressing the issue of the day of the Lord to the church of Thessalonica, wrote this:
“For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Th 5:9)
He then goes on to write:
“Therefore encourage one another…” (v 11)There are also some interesting models of the tribulation in the OT. Two obvious ones that come to mind are the Flood (Gen 7) and Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 19). In both instances God rescued those he considered righteous before the destruction. In the case of the Gen 19, he sent 2 witnesses in to facilitate this, so you can see the parallels with Rev 11 here. I wouldn't take these to the bank but they add a little weight, I think.
Its also interesting that the church isn't mentioned at all between Rev 3-19 (i.e during the time the tribulation is unfolding). The appearance of the antichrist is a required catalyst to the tribulation starting. Paul wrote in 2 Thess 2:7 that the antichrist cannot appear on the scene until “he who now restrains him” is taken out of the way. Most good scholars attribute this 'he' to the Holy Spirit. Since we are “sealed in Him (Jesus) by the Holy Spirit of promise” (Eph 1:13) it's logical that when the Holy Spirit is taken (before the tribulation starts), we will be too.
One more passage:
“Come my people, enter into your rooms, And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while, until indignation runs its course. 21 For behold the LORD is about to come out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity…” Isa 26:20,21t8, isnt this another reference to Jesus?? (LORD)
If we expect Him at any time then that imparts a sense of urgency – every moment of every day is critical. If you look at it from the other side (ie raptured after the tribulation) them you can simply wait till the AOD, repent, be baptised, get busy for His kingdom etc. The mid trib position is more likely, but there can never be a true sense of imminence because it will be known to occur somewhere between the 'signing of the covenant with the many' by the antichrist, i.e. the start of the tribulation (Dan 9:27) and the AOD.
What do you guys think?
I think there is merit to a pre-trib rapture, especially considering what happened with the flood and Sodom and Gommorah. They were saved before the disaster and the end times are said to be like those times.
But it also depends on the length of the tribulation. I heard a teacher on this subject point out once that the Tribulation being a 7 year period is incorrect. He pointed to few places where 3 + 1/2 years is mentioned.
Daniel 7:25
He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. [ 7:25 Or [ for a year, two years and half a year ] ]Revelation 12:14
The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.Revelation 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.Revelation 11:3
And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”Apparently all these times work out to 3 1/2 years in the Jewish calendar.
So his view was pre-trib, but we would still go through the tough times (the time of sorrows) that preceeds the tribulation period.
E.g. in Matthew 24:3-9 says
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.
6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.So it maybe we could suffer not at the tribulation of God's wrath, but the wrath of the Devil and his AntiChrist as the AntiChrist will have power over the saints to put them to death. So we get it first from the AntiChrist, then God punishes the world for it's works of idolatory and sin afterward.
The 7 years idea supposedly comes from the covenant made by the AntiChrist and the Jews, (a heptad or week). He breaks that covenant half way through. But would the tribulation be from the beginning of the AntiChrist's reign or could it come mid way through his reign, when he has clocked up some judgement and tested the works of Christians by making them pass through the fires of persecution.
Of course I am not sure about this interpretation, but I have heard of other interpretations that are quite different. These usually follow the idea that the Catholic Church is the Beast and the 70 weeks of Daniel are often used. But I would have thought that the Roman Catholic Church would be or part of the woman who rides the Beast if anything. I haven't really gone into such beliefs in a deep way and certainly do not want to end up obsessing about such things either. But it certainly does occupy a part of my faith.
The Beast to me is a political power or system and a man who represents that power. Although it would have to be said that the Catholic Church and the Roman Empire have worked together as a team, hence the term the Holy Roman Empire. We also know from revelation that Rome is/was 1 head of that beast. But even looking at it that way suggests to me that the Vatican isn't the beast, rather supported by it.
Just thinking out loud really. But maybe it could help or strike a cord somewhere.
Lastly, why do we think the tribulation is 7 years in length? This could be a good place to build from.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 24 2004,23:10) t8, isnt this another reference to Jesus?? (LORD)
Perhaps it is LORD. If so, then I would suggest that the LORD will send his Christ to bring vengance on the wicked.Jesus taught us explicitly that no man can see God and only he can reveal him to us.
God doesn't just turn up and walk down the street or ride a horse. Jesus does such things though.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 24 2004,08:47) I think there is merit to a pre-trib rapture, especially considering what happened with the flood and Sodom and Gommorah. They were saved before the disaster and the end times are said to be like those times.
Hi t8,
Looks like our esatologies align somewhat anyway
Taking the kids over to see their grandparents this weekend so probably wont be posting. Have a good one.The 3 and a half year figure is a recurring feature of the bible and that is why I think that is when the rapture perhaps occurs. It would be half way through the 7 year Daniel tribulation time but before the wrath of God is expressed-as He did not destine us for wrath. It is just before the appearance of the Beast on the world stage so the mark ought not be an issue.
The weeds are pulled out before the wheat is harvested.
Of course some of the elect are saved through the Great Tribulation so they will continue to appear in the Word until the Harvest of the earth.
I saw in another site that the days will be shortened-but it was suggested it was not the number of days but their length.hey guys,
i know it's a fairly accepted doctrine these days, but seriously i find no biblical evidence to suggest the event of a “rapture” full-stop… i mean, paul specifically says the dead will rise first, then those still alive will be caught up to meet jesus in the air at his returning… and the fact that the time was shortened otherwise no man could survive – this was specifically for the sake of the faithful…
from my memeory, the rapture was proposed by a lady (a quaker i think) in the early to mid-nineteenth century, and wasn't adopted by the majority of the church until the “latter-rain” evangelists of the forties and fifties… it sounds like a great escape-clause – which is another reason why i'm sceptical…
i'll keep an open mind about it… but should we not search the scriptures before believing such a doctrine??
cheers,
nate.
Ok Nate. well no matter what you call it is a event descibed in 1Thess and 1 Cor 15 and Jn 11. It is meeting the Lord at His return but before he arrives on Earth so He is still in the air.
hey nick,
what i was trying to say was that i can't see any biblical evidence that believers will escape the great tribulation (except perhaps that they will “escape” through martydom)… which, to my understanding, is what the rapture theory is ostensibly concerned with…
cheers,
nate.
Fair enough. Back to the books.
Ok if the tares are pulled out and the wheat is kept safe till Jesus returns it is possible -such as happened at the Passover.
The bridesmaids who do not go with the bridegroom are treated as nothing “I do not know you”
I struggle to imagine how so many terrible and destructive things happen, so many die , and yet politics and persecution and arrangements for armies to surround Jerusalem all seem to be able to continue to be organised.
Who can help?
hey nick,
i'm not sure i understand how those things speak about about a calling away?
HI nate,
All we know is that some people who are alive will be transformed into their new resurrection body while being transported to meet Jesus on His return to Earth. We know the resurrection of the saved occurs just beforehand and i6t is before Jesus arrives on Mt Zion. We are given some warning signs to look out for and we cannot know the exact day but neither should we be completely in the Dark either.Then the arguments start whether is is pre,mid or post tribulation. Come on Is 1.8 ,how about some input.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2004,23:36) Come on Is 1.8 ,how about some input.
Hi Guys,
NH, I thought you were doing a good job really. Nate the word 'rapture' is the latin extraction from the Greek word harpazo:16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught (harpazo) up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words. (1 Thess 4)
It means to sieze, catch up or snatch away – with force.
There is general agreement among christendom that this super-natural event will happan because of 1 Cor 15:51, 52 and the passage above. But there is a great deal of disagreement on its timing, relative to the tribulation. I lean towards the pre-trib timing for the reasons outlined in an earlier post.What is the purpose of the great tribulation? To me it appears to be used by God to drive Israel to the messianic wall and to expend a great deal of wrath on 'earth dwellers'. I don't believe the true church is counted among this group for a lot of reasons. Chiefly among them, why should God's faithful be the subject of His wrath? That doesn't make sense to me. I know we are to expect persecution but I thinks that it means in this life (before the tribulation). I think the western church has a distorted view of persecution – ask a christian in China, Vietnam, Iran, Sudan….what persecution is, and I think they could tell you, with authority.
Anyway my thoughts..for what it's worth.hey guys,
i'm not disputing what 1 thes 4 or 1 cor 15 say, mostly because they both seem pretty self-explanitary to me – the lord will return, a trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised, we'll be changed (incorruptable), and meet the lord in the air forever to dwell with him. if this is at his returning (which it says), then why would we be called away from this earthly domain? we'll be where he is, and he will be here…
so i don't understand where the rapture (ie. called away to heaven) comes into it, especially seeing as the context is very specific about “when”, “why” and “to where” we will be caught up…
remember also that jesus said the those days will be shortened for our sake… this doesn't sound very rational if we're to be called away anyway, does it?
cheers,
nate.
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