Firstborn of/over all creation

This topic contains 3,675 replies, has 33 voices, and was last updated by  Jodi 1 month, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #829810
     NickHassan 
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    Hi T8,

    Good.

    So not a man and certainly not an anointed man.

    Do you agree?

    #829814
     Anthony 
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    Hi Jodi

    Here is an analogy for you. Jodi I gave you the simple truth that a child could understand .I wadntw given a analogy I was given the word of  God. ask a child  this simple scripture listen to the child answer. you might have to put on your spirirtaul ears i dont believe she going to give you a analogy. try this one.(God) Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, … according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. 

    There’s really not much more I can say to you. Oi guess o could show you analogy or some typology . Where I could make anything out of it.   Later bye

    #829815
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    Yes you have to have your ears attuned to prophecy to read that.

    Scripture is prophetic.

    2 Peter.1.19

    So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.

    The morning star is the Spirit of Christ.

    Rev 22.16

     

     

    #829816
     Anthony 
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    Nick answer those one simple scripture

    God] Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, … according to hiown purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began[chronon aionion, before “times eonian”]

    #829818
     Anthony 
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    Nick I thought you would say something about the word incarnation.  Some object to the non-biblical term “incarnation” referring to Jesus. True, it is non-biblical but it refers exclusively to Jesus and the noun is derived from the Latin incarnātus, past participle of incarnāre which means “to make flesh” (American Heritage Dictionary, 3rd ed., 1992). This non-biblical term accurately describes the concept that the Word “was made flesh” (John 1:14).

    #829820
     Anthony 
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    Hello I’m waiting Nick you don’t have to try to bring me all  around the bush. That deception Nick the bible calls it trickery.

    #829824
     Anthony 
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    <h3>Jesus’ testimony</h3>
    John 3, 11-12Truly, truly, I say to you, We speak what We know and bear witness to what We have seen, and you do not receive Our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you Heavenly things?

    John 6, 38For I have come down out of Heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

    John 6, 51I am the Living Bread which came down out of Heaven.

    John 6, 61-62When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples murmured about this, He said to them, Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

    John 8, 23And He said to them, You are from beneath; I am from above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.

    John 8, 58Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM.

    John 16, 28I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.

    John 17, 5And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed.

    Statements made in the above-mentioned verses: I have come down from heaven; I am from above; before Abraham came into existence, I am; I came out from the Father; with the glory which I had with you before the world.

     

     
    <h3>2) The testimony of John the Baptist</h3>
    John 1, 15John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, This was He of whom I said, He who arrives after me appeared in history before me, for He existed before me.

    John 1, 30This is He of whom I said, After me arrives a Man who appeared in history before me, for He existed before me.

    John 3, 31-32He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from Heaven is above all. And what He has seen and heard, this He testifies; and no one receives His testimony.

    #829825
     Anthony 
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    Hi again Gene,

    can quote you some scriptures if you want:

    Colossians 2:9 ESV

    For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

    John 1:1 ESV

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

    John 20:28 ESV

    Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

    John 10:38 ESV

    But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

    But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

    Titus 2:13 ESV

    Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

    For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

    Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”

    John 8:58 ESV

    Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

    Isaiah 9:6 ESV

    For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

    Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

    Romans 8:9 ESV

    You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

    “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.’

    Romans 9:5 ESV

    To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

    John 1:3 ESV

    All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

    And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

    For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

    Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

    John 17:5 ESV

    And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

    I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

    John 9:38 ESV

    He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    John 3:13 ESV

    No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

    John 1:14 ESV

    And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Mark 2:7 ESV

    “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

    Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

    Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    Lightenup was trying to help you Gene

     

    #829826
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Anthony. ..You still haven’t understood, the “WORD” (was God and was with GOD), GOD SENT HIS (WORD) into the flesh man JESUS. What you have quoted is about the SPIRIT WHICH WAS THE “WORD” , that abided “IN” AND WAS SPEAKING THROUGH THE FLESH MAN JESUS. OR HAVENT YOU READ , “the Words i speak unto you are (NOT) “MY” WORDS, but the WORDS OF HIM WHO SENT ME.

    YOU ON THE OTHER HAND ARE MAKING THE WORD OUT TO ACTUALLY BE JESUS HIMSELF. Seems you and Jesus disagree with each other.

    THE TERM YOU BELIEVE IN “INCARNATION” SHOULD ONLY APPLY TO THE “WORD” COMMING (INTO), the MAN JESUS AT HIS BAPTIZM, BY JOHN. THATS WHAT IS MEANT BY, “The word became or better (came to be) in flesh, he GOD who IS SPIRIT, is the word, came to be “IN” the MAN JESUS.

    WHY CANT YOU BELIEVE WHAT JESUS CLEARLY SAID, “THE FATHER IS “IN” ME”. You instead of BELIEVING that it was God who was “in” the man Jesus, who was reconciling the world unto himself, believe the man Jesus was the God who was reconciling the world unto himself.

    That is why trinitarians are IDOLATERS, because they make Jesus into another God and worship him as such, 2Ths2.

    Jesus clearly said it was “the Father who was “IN” HIM that was doing the works” but you make it out to be Jesus the God himself was doing the works. Well you certanily are not alone probably 95% of all christanity believes that they are the “many” many who have entered “the (WIDE) GATE THAT LEADS TO DESTRUCTION”. but only a “FEW” have entered the straight and narrow gate that leads to life.

    REMEMBER WHAT IT SAYS, “because they love not the truth, GOD will send unto them a deluding spirit, in order that they might believe a (LIE)”. what LIE is that?, the lie that jesus is a God. 2Ths2, And again, “if the blind lead the blind they both shall fall into a ditch”.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene

    #829827
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    You do not need to define catholic INCARNATION for us because the Word is not in the bible.

    It is a theological term used to try and use logic to understand scripture.

    But scripture is spiritual and not logic based.

     

    You really do need to choose whom to follow. Choose the way of The Spirit and understanding will result.

    Choose the way of theology and you will always be looking for ways to patch the gaping holes that keep appearing.

     

    #829829
     Jodi 
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    Anthony,

    I might have missed it but I don’t think you replied to the post I gave about the curse you spoke of, where I had said that the curse did not last. It did not last because God told David that He does not lie, and David’s sons forsake God His promise STILL STANDS. 

    27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. 30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

    33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah

    The curse was short lived, because as we see here God would NOT LIE to David, his SEED SHALL ENDURE FOREVER. 

    Anthony if you do not confess that Jesus is of the SEED of David, YOU are making God into a liar.

    How did God bring forth that seed? We are told in Matthew and Luke that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and established in her womb a child with that of her DNA and that of Josephs. We have the scriptures listing the lineage of the CHRIST through two people, so that we would see that on both sides he was a son of David, and also a son of God through Adam.

    NOTICE verse 27 says, I WILL MAKE him MY Firstborn. Who is “him”? As the passage says the “him” is one chosen out of the people!! The one that would CRY OUT, thou art my father, my God.  

    18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king. 19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people. 20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: 21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. 22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. 23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. 24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. 25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. 26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

    Revelation 5:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    The firstborn of the dead was made higher than the kings of the earth.

    1 Peter 1: 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

    Hebrews 5: 9 And being MADE perfect, he BECAME the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Titus1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;

    God made the world through the one that was to come,

    6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

    8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

    NEW things did God DECLARE to Isaiah, He DECLARED them BEFORE they SPRUNG FORTH.

    Matthew 12: 15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; 16 And charged them that they should not make him known: 17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. 19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. 21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

    Mark 1: 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Luke 4: 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    Anthony you must be truly blind if you cannot see from the above scriptures, that God made the world through the one that WOULD COME, of whom He MADE perfect so that he would BECOME the author of eternal salvation. The ONE that would come was not said to pre-exist, on the ABSOLUTE CONTRARY, we are told by the prophets that he would come from among his PEOPLE and would be of the seed of David. This one that was to come God says that he SHALL BE His Son, and that He would BEGET Him on a certain day. We are told how this man would remain without sin, and it was because of the begetting of God’s Spirit that happened at the river. There is NO scripture that speaks of a Son being begotten BEFORE the river. What we have are the prophets that spoke of this to happen in the future. 

    Anthony do you deny the prophets? You clearly seem to ignore them and God’s promises, when you try and declare that God made the world through a pre-existing son. If you believed in the prophets and God’s promises that He gave to them, then you would understand who Christ is and who he is not said to be. God made the world for the resurrected man that had been perfected by God’s Spirit. He made the world through all those who He foreordained.

    Romans 9: 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    Isaiah 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

    1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    1 Peter 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

    There existed NO Son until the Spirit came down upon the man Jesus. God had planned an election BEFORE children were even BORN, and the the chief corner stone was the child of the seed of David that God had promised David. 

     

    #829830
     Jodi 
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    Anthony,

    Isaiah 42:

    1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

    5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

    6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

    8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

    NEW things did God DECLARE to Isaiah, He DECLARED them BEFORE they SPRUNG FORTH.

     

    #829831
     Jodi 
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    Anthony,

    Speaking of John,

    Luke 1: 80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.

    Speaking of Jesus,

    Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

    It wasn’t until the baptism of Jesus at the river that Jesus became God’s only begotten Son.

    #829832
     Lightenup 
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    Jodi,

    You say that Jesus is the firstborn of the NEW creation and not the original creation, then please tell us who was the firstborn of the original creation and the verse that supports that.

    Also please answer my previous questions:

    I am not asking you who is Jesus spiritual Father after his baptism. I am asking you who is his spiritual Father before baptism, if it wasn’t God. You seem to be saying that God was only Jesus’ spiritual Father after baptism and not before because you say that Jesus was only the Son of God after his baptism, not before. Please tell me who’s  spiritual son was he before he got baptized at the Jordan and became the spiritual son of God.

    Who do we all belong to as a son/daughter before we become a son/daughter of God?

    Also, please tell me if you understand that the term “firstborn” can apply to the only child in a family and it is not necessary for there to be other children.

    Thanks!

    #829833
     Lightenup 
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    Anthony,

    Good verses from John. Keep up the good work!

    Jesus is the Lord of lords, Jehovah our Righteousness!

    Gene, Jodi, and Nick believe they are equal to Jesus and honor him within the commandment of loving your neighbor as yourself. Imagine thinking of yourself equal to Jesus who is the Lord of lords, Jehovah our Righteousness. They spend so much time on here bringing Jesus down to their level.

    Press on!

    LU

    #829834
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    2 Tim 1.8f

    Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, or of me, his prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel, according to the power of God, Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His Holy purpose and grace which was granted to us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.

     

    So were you from all eternity? No

    Was Jesus, the son of Adam, from all eternity? No

    But the plan of God from all eternity is revealed as the salvation of men through Jesus Christ.

    #829838
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Well put Nick, they simply can not understand, God was perfecting mankind which was his plan from the start, Jesus was simply the first one to reach that goal set for all mankind. Just as it says, “until” we “all” come to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a “perfect” MAN, unto the “MEASURE”, and the “STATURE” of the “FULNESS” OF Christ.

    They simply are unable to get it Nick.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene

    #829839
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    Jn 3.11

    Truly, truly, I say unto you.

    WE speak of what WE know and testify of what WE have seen, and you do not accept OUR testimony.

    If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

    No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven: the Son of man.

     

    Who is the WE?

    Do you think it is the man speaking who is a WE?

     

    No it is the same WE mentioned in Jn 14.23

    ‘If anyone loves me, he will keep my word; and my Father and I will love him,

    and WE will come to him and make OUR abode with him.’

     

    In the one Spirit is the Father and the Son.

    The Spirit came from heaven and was made flesh in Jesus of Nazareth.

     

    #829843
     GeneBalthrop 
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    LU….does you bible say “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOU GOD’S,? Please tell us where that is in scripture.

    Anthony and LU….I am going to quote some scriptures to you about mankind and Jesus and i would like you both to study them and give us a response, be cause they define both us and Jesus.

    Heb 2:6… BUT ONE IN A CERTAIN PLACE TESTIFIED, SAYING, “what is man that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man that thou visitest him?

    7…Thou made him (mankind) a “little” lower the the angels; thou “CHROWNED” him (mankind) with “GLORY” and “HONOUR”, and did set him (mankind) over the works of thy hands;

    8…Thou has put “ALL” things in “SUBJECTION” under his (mankind) feet. For in that he (God) put “ALL” things under him (mankinds), he (GOD) Left “NOTHING” that is not under him (mankind). But “NOW” we see not “YET” “ALL THINGS” put under him (mankind)

    9…BUT we see Jesus, who was made a “little” lower the the angels, for the suffering of death, now “CROWNED” with “GLORY” and “HONOUR”; that he , BY THE (GRACE) OF GOD, should taste death for every man.

    10… For it became him (God the father) for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing “Many” sons unto “GLORY”, to make the captain ( the man Jesus) of their salvation perfect through “SUFFERINGS”.

    NOW tell us, do you see any difference here, are we also like Jesus? , are we also not to be “crowned” with “glory” and “honour” , are we not also to have “all” things under our feet, are we not also, made a little lowers then the angels, as he, do we not also taste death?

    Now before you go wandering off to something else , please tell us what those scripture mean to you, if you can’t then this excercise is a complete wast of time, IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene.

    #829850
     Jodi 
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    Hi LU,

    When you speak about whose spiritual father was that of Jesus before his baptism, I need you to provide a scripture, so I know what you are talking about.

    As far as my understanding from the scripture,  Luke tells us that Adam is a son of God, and this going down from the genealogy of Jesus from Marry and so forth until you reach Adam, that is then said to be son of God. Likewise Matthew gives the genealogy of Jesus from Joseph and so forth to Abraham. Both of these genealogies mention David as well. Both Abraham and David received promises that link up to what Paul said to Titus which was that before God made the world He promised eternal life. Also NY scripture quotes the promise given to David that of his seed God would put His Spirit upon Him and call him His Son, also referred to as Jesus being begotten.

    Can your firstborn be also your only born you ask? Can you give a scripture that you think speaks of a pre-existing son being the first and only child to God?

    We have NT Prototokos, which is translated as firstborn 7, first begotten 2

    Let’s take a look at those scriptures,

    Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

    Luke 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

    Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Hebrews 1:6 <span id=”verse-6″>And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.</span>

    Hebrews 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

    We are told that Jesus was the “only begotten Son”, and scripture tells us that this is because he was the ONLY Son who was baptized with the Spirit without measure, of which caused him to be the ONLY man to have lived a life without sin. Scripture tells us that those that do not sin are the children of God. One day we will be without sin, but Jesus was the only man to have never sinned. Because of this he could not be held to the punishment of sin which was death, and those that believe in the works of the Spirit in him (which is why he is called the Christ),  will be raised from the dead as well. Likewise scripture ALSO tells us specifically that the perfected man Christ is the image of God, and God promised a new beginning, and that Christ would be the firstborn of this beginning, a beginning that was God’s PURPOSE when he created the first heaven and earth.

    PLEASE tell me LU according to scripture where I am wrong? I see that you lack using scripture to explain scripture, you take a few scriptures and have tunnel vision so it fits with your pagan doctrine.

    For crying out loud, you don’t think that Hebrews 15 is explained by verse 18? You don’t think that verse 15 is speaking of the promise God gave Isaiah, where he said that He would MAKE all things NEW, or the promises to other prophets where He said He would raise up from among the people an eternal king? 

    23 <span id=”verse-23″>To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,</span>

    Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    We have OT Yalad, translated as beget 201, bare 110, born 79, bring forth 25, bear 23, travail 16, midwife 10, child 8, delivered 5, borne 3, birth 2, labour 2, brought up 2, miscellaneous 12

    21 <span id=”verse-21″>And the LORD visited Hannah, so that she conceived, and bare three sons and two daughters. And the child Samuel grew before the LORD.</span>

    7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

    14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    Why would Jesus be called Immanuel, why would Jesus be said to come in his Father’s name? For the SAME reason Jesus said that if you see me you see the Father!! This was explained by the scriptures saying that the Father’s Spirit was in Jesus, and the words and deeds Jesus did were not his own, but the Fathers. To sin is to follow a path other than Gods, to be righteous is to follow God, this is why Jesus said, not my will but yours Father. What made it possible, well the flesh profits us nothing, we must be born of water and of the Spirit, which is exactly what Jesus was born with, to a measure not given to any other man, making Jesus God’s “only begotton Son”.

    We have NT Monogenes, translated as only begotten 6, only 2, only child 1

    12 <span id=”verse-12″>Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her.</span>

    42 For he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying. But as he went the people thronged him.

    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    We have plenty of God’s WORD speaking to the prophets, of the coming of a child that would be born of the FLESH of the seed of David, that would be the anointed, that would be a savior. Then we see the promise was made flesh.

    18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

    9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    It was NOT a pre-existing son that SHED his blood, it was a MAN that was MADE perfect through suffering. By saying this refers to God sending down a son that was begotten before Adam and Eve, you would be SPEAKING AGAINST the HOLY SPIRIT and what the SPIRIT accomplished in a MAN that made him WORTHY to be the LAMB without spot or blemish.

    Lu, please give a scripture that you think speaks of a “pre-existing son” being a first and only child to God? 

     

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