Firstborn of/over all creation

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  • #265306
     JustAskin 
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    WJ,

    you well know your deception.

    Jesus did not say “Hey, I am the Son of God”. He said, “Why do you you accuse me because i say “THAT” I am the Son of God”.

    What is “THAT” that he said. Was it not “Before Abraham was, I am” meaning that before Abraham he pre-Existed and therefore a Spirit creature – a “Son of God”.

    Jesus did not say himself “I Am the Son of God” with explicity, he did call himself “The Son of Man” with explicity.

    WJ you force the point because Jesus “Responded” with those words but THAT was not what I was talking about – and you well know it.

    Why do you get entangled with dceit when you could just not make a post instead… try it WJ, it will do you good.

    #265307
     Baker 
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 05 2010,07:43)
    Bump

    Quote (Baker @ Sep. 03 2010,16:10)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2010,08:08)

    Baker,Sep. wrote:

    Hello!  This is going to be a very short post.  If the Holy Spirit is a person, would He then not be His Father???? I have asked this before and got no answer.  Hope you WJ answer me this time….
    Peace Irene


    Irene

    I have answered you many times.

    So let me take another approach.

    If the Holy Spirit is not a person as you say but an “it”,  and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary, then according to you an “it” is the Father of Jesus, is that right?

    WJ


    WJ  Mike is right, I asked IF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON, WOULD HE THEN NOT BE THE FATHER OF JESUS?   That you did not address….What you are saying is not what I asked you.  Why is that so confusion to you?  I asked a plain Question and you try to make something else out of it.  What you are saying is not what I asked you.  Read it again….As far as the Holy Spirit being an it, it is the Spirit of our Heavenly Father Jehovah….got it…..Just like we have the Holy Spirit in us, Maria was conceived by His Holy Spirit and that makes Jehovah God His Father.  
    Peace Irene


    Irene

    I answered your question to Mike.

    Now its your turn to answer mine.

    If the Holy Spirit is not a person as you say but an “it”,  and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary, then according to you an “it” is the Father of Jesus, is that right?

    WJ

    You may have answered many times, although I doubt it, so why not answer her now. I can tell you why, you don't have an answer. Not only that, but you spin the question Irene ask, she never called the Holy Spirit an “IT”, you did, in order to avoid answering, and to change the subject.

    Georg

    Ps. I had to go back to page 4 to find the original question, and I haven't found an answer from you yet to that question Mike ask, and then Irene; not surprising,

    Pps. I don't even know why I posted here, I must have gotten lost.

    #265308
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 04 2010,06:31)
    Mike

    The scriptures says Jesus is the “Son of God”.

    Since God is three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit then Jesus incarnation involved the three. Luke 1:35, Job 33:4, Heb 10:5, Phil 2:6-8

    The Holy Spirit came upon Mary and caused her to concieve his body, (Job 33:4, Heb 10:5) in that moment the power of the Highest overshadowed her and Jesus took on the likeness of sinful flesh (John 1:1, 14, Phil 2:6-8)

    And the Angel anounced that he Jesus would be called the Son of God”.

    Now the question is right back to you…

    If the Holy Spirit is not a person as you say but an “it”,  and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary, then according to you an “it” is the Father of Jesus, is that right?


    Keith,

    This is just more word play by you that doesn't add up when scrutinized.  The holy spirit is OF God.  God Himself caused Mary to be impregnated THROUGH the “it” of His Holy Spirit.  That is why Jehovah is the Father of Jesus, NOT His Holy Spirit.

    You said:

    Quote
    The scriptures says Jesus is the “Son of God”.

    Since God is three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit

    Keith, by that distorted reasoning, then the Father is Jesus' Father, the Holy Spirit is Jesus' Father, AND JESUS IS JESUS' FATHER.  Not only that, but as I've seen t8 point out to you, Jesus would not only be his own Father, but his own Son.

    Is this the nonsensical crap you would like us to buy in to?

    mike

    #265309
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 04 2010,08:42)
    Ha Ha

    You think the Fathers name is 4 Hebrew consonants called the tetragammation.

    You still havn't shown us where the Apostles called the Father by name have you?

    What is the Fathers name if you know it? What is (Keith's) name, ah yes “KTH”?

    WJ


    Really Keith?

    That's your defense?  First of all, you have no more proof that the discipes DIDN'T use Yahweh than we have proof that they did.

    What we DO have is a scripture where Jesus said he made God's NAME known and glorified it.  

    We DO have fragments from the earliest known LXX that has the tetragrammaton printed in Hebrew letters within the Greek text.  

    And we DO have the scriptures where God gave His name to Moses at the burning bush. The God that gave Moses His divine name said He was ONE, not THREE.

    mike

    #265310
     terraricca 
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    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2010,20:12)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 04 2010,08:42)
    Ha Ha

    You think the Fathers name is 4 Hebrew consonants called the tetragammation.

    You still havn't shown us where the Apostles called the Father by name have you?

    What is the Fathers name if you know it? What is (Keith's) name, ah yes “KTH”?

    WJ


    Really Keith?

    That's your defense?  First of all, you have no more proof that the discipes DIDN'T use Yahweh than we have proof that they did.

    What we DO have is a scripture where Jesus said he made God's NAME known and glorified it.  

    We DO have fragments from the earliest known LXX that has the tetragrammaton printed in Hebrew letters within the Greek text.  

    And we DO have the scriptures where God gave His name to Moses at the burning bush.  The God that gave Moses His divine name said He was ONE, not THREE.

    mike


    hi Mike

    do you remember months ago i told you that WJ and KJ are non believers but deceivers ,

    you still enjoy your little whatever ?????

    Pierre

    #265311
     mikeboll64 
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    Hi Pierre,

    I learn so much more about scripture because of people who DON'T believe like I do than I do because of people here that do.

    For example, I agree with your understanding of scripture on every post of yours I've read.  But if I said, “Pierre, do you think Jesus pre-existed?” and you say, “Yes”, then what is left?  Will we then test each other to study and find other scriptures that support Jesus' pre-existence?  Probably not.  Same with the trinity……you and I don't believe it, so a post from you will not cause me to research or delve deeper into scripture.

    The stuff the trinitarians and non-preexisters say causes me to study the Greek and Hebrew words, the verse in greater context, and look for supporting verses to defend my beliefs and rebut theirs.

    It is a learning process for me Peirre, and I love it.

    peace and love,
    mike

    #265312
     mikeboll64 
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    Hi WJ,

    I forgot that we also have a scripture where Jesus tells us to start our prayers with “hallowed be your name”. What “name” do you think Jesus meant?

    mike

    #265313
     Lightenup 
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    OK, a new author for today…Theophilus.  He has captured my attention and is easier to read than some early Christian fathers.  Following is an excerpt about God creating through a helper…His Word which was begotten before the ages.

    Quote
    CHAPTER X.—THE WORLD CREATED BY GOD THROUGH THE WORD.
    And first, they taught us with one consent that God made all things out of nothing; for nothing was coeval with God: but He being His own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom He might be known; for him, therefore, He prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy; but he that is uncreated stands in need of nothing. God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels, begat Him, emitting Him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by Him He made all things. He is called “governing principle” [ἁρκή], because He rules, and is Lord of all things fashioned by Him. He, then, being Spirit of God, and governing principle, and wisdom, and power of the highest, came down upon the prophets, and through them spoke of the creation of the world and of all other things. For the prophets were not when the world came into existence, but the wisdom of God which was in Him, and His holy Word which was always present with Him. Wherefore He speaks thus by the prophet Solomon: “When He prepared the heavens I was there, and when He appointed the foundations of the earth I was by Him as one brought up with Him.”568568    Prov. viii. 27. Theophilus reads with the Septuagint, “I was with Him, putting things into order,” instead of “I was by Him as one brought up with Him.” [Here the Logos is the σοφία as with the Fathers generally; e.g. Cyprian, Advs. Judæos, book ii. 2. But see cap. xv. p. 101, infra.] And Moses, who lived many years before Solomon, or, rather, the Word of God by him as by an instrument, says, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” First he named the “beginning,”569569    That is, the first principle, whom he has just shown to be the Word. and “creation,”570570    In the Greek version of Gen. i. 1, the word “created” stands before “God.” then he thus introduced God; for not lightly and on slight occasion is it right to name God. For the divine wisdom foreknew that some would trifle and name a multitude of gods that do not exist. In order, therefore, that the living God might be known by His works, and that [it might be known that] by His Word God created the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, he said, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

    from: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.iv.ii.ii.x.html

    This stood out to me about this excerpt:
    “God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels, begat Him, emitting Him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by Him He made all things.”

    This is not indicating that the Word has always been beside God, but within God and was begotten with God's own wisdom before all things.

    (edited to add the source)

    #265314
     Baker 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 07 2010,03:45)
    OK, a new author for today…Theophilus.  He has captured my attention and is easier to read than some early Christian fathers.  Following is an excerpt about God creating through a helper…His Word which was begotten before the ages.

    Quote
    CHAPTER X.—THE WORLD CREATED BY GOD THROUGH THE WORD.
    And first, they taught us with one consent that God made all things out of nothing; for nothing was coeval with God: but He being His own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom He might be known; for him, therefore, He prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy; but he that is uncreated stands in need of nothing. God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels, begat Him, emitting Him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by Him He made all things. He is called “governing principle” [ἁρκή], because He rules, and is Lord of all things fashioned by Him. He, then, being Spirit of God, and governing principle, and wisdom, and power of the highest, came down upon the prophets, and through them spoke of the creation of the world and of all other things. For the prophets were not when the world came into existence, but the wisdom of God which was in Him, and His holy Word which was always present with Him. Wherefore He speaks thus by the prophet Solomon: “When He prepared the heavens I was there, and when He appointed the foundations of the earth I was by Him as one brought up with Him.”568568    Prov. viii. 27. Theophilus reads with the Septuagint, “I was with Him, putting things into order,” instead of “I was by Him as one brought up with Him.” [Here the Logos is the σοφία as with the Fathers generally; e.g. Cyprian, Advs. Judæos, book ii. 2. But see cap. xv. p. 101, infra.] And Moses, who lived many years before Solomon, or, rather, the Word of God by him as by an instrument, says, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” First he named the “beginning,”569569    That is, the first principle, whom he has just shown to be the Word. and “creation,”570570    In the Greek version of Gen. i. 1, the word “created” stands before “God.” then he thus introduced God; for not lightly and on slight occasion is it right to name God. For the divine wisdom foreknew that some would trifle and name a multitude of gods that do not exist. In order, therefore, that the living God might be known by His works, and that [it might be known that] by His Word God created the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, he said, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

    This stood out to me about this excerpt:
    “God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels, begat Him, emitting Him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by Him He made all things.”

    This is not indicating that the Word has always been beside God, but within God and was begotten with God's own wisdom before all things.


    Hi Kathi!  The Word of God in John  1:1 it says In the beginning, so who's beginning was it?  I believe that goes nicely with Col. 1:15 being the firstborn of all creation and also Rev. 3:14  The beginning of the creation of God, it shows that Jesus had a beginning.  And through Him all was made it says in verse 3 of John 1. Also it just struck me since He is the Son of God, He is younger and came forth from God, and had to have a beginning. Just like our Sons are……
    Plain and simple…..Peace Irene

    #265315
     terraricca 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 07 2010,10:45)
    OK, a new author for today…Theophilus.  He has captured my attention and is easier to read than some early Christian fathers.  Following is an excerpt about God creating through a helper…His Word which was begotten before the ages.

    Quote
    CHAPTER X.—THE WORLD CREATED BY GOD THROUGH THE WORD.
    And first, they taught us with one consent that God made all things out of nothing; for nothing was coeval with God: but He being His own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom He might be known; for him, therefore, He prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy; but he that is uncreated stands in need of nothing. God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels, begat Him, emitting Him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by Him He made all things. He is called “governing principle” [ἁρκή], because He rules, and is Lord of all things fashioned by Him. He, then, being Spirit of God, and governing principle, and wisdom, and power of the highest, came down upon the prophets, and through them spoke of the creation of the world and of all other things. For the prophets were not when the world came into existence, but the wisdom of God which was in Him, and His holy Word which was always present with Him. Wherefore He speaks thus by the prophet Solomon: “When He prepared the heavens I was there, and when He appointed the foundations of the earth I was by Him as one brought up with Him.”568568    Prov. viii. 27. Theophilus reads with the Septuagint, “I was with Him, putting things into order,” instead of “I was by Him as one brought up with Him.” [Here the Logos is the σοφία as with the Fathers generally; e.g. Cyprian, Advs. Judæos, book ii. 2. But see cap. xv. p. 101, infra.] And Moses, who lived many years before Solomon, or, rather, the Word of God by him as by an instrument, says, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” First he named the “beginning,”569569    That is, the first principle, whom he has just shown to be the Word. and “creation,”570570    In the Greek version of Gen. i. 1, the word “created” stands before “God.” then he thus introduced God; for not lightly and on slight occasion is it right to name God. For the divine wisdom foreknew that some would trifle and name a multitude of gods that do not exist. In order, therefore, that the living God might be known by His works, and that [it might be known that] by His Word God created the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, he said, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

    This stood out to me about this excerpt:
    “God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels, begat Him, emitting Him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by Him He made all things.”

    This is not indicating that the Word has always been beside God, but within God and was begotten with God's own wisdom before all things.


    katty

    with your view about the word' that he was in God before he was created is right,but then all of creation was in there at the same time is it not ????

    Pierre

    #265316
     Lightenup 
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    Hi Pierre,
    Theophilus, whom I am reading today, says the Word was generated and NOT created. Those things that were created came from nothing but the thought of God and made by the Word of God who had first been internal, within the heart of God, and then begotten, becoming the Word emitted from God. So first, God was alone with the Word within Him, then he uses the terms: He uttered the Word, begot the Word, and generated the Word to all mean that now He was not alone but His Word was God with Him.

    The Word was always in the 'bowels' of the one God and at some point, emitted from the bowels of the one God before the ages. This is my understanding of what he is saying anyway. Theophilus also calls the Word “God”

    I forgot to put up the source of the quoted excerpt above, it is:
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.iv.ii.ii.x.html

    I will go add it after I post this.

    You can read this excerpt to see that Theophilus makes a distinction between the Word being generated and not created.

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.iv.ii.ii.xxii.html
    I will quote this in my next post.

    you asked:

    Quote
    with your view about the word' that he was in God before he was created is right,but then all of creation was in there at the same time is it not?

    I do not think that saying all creation was 'in' God along with the Word is an accurate understanding. I know that I paraphrased your question but I wrote it in a way that I understand what you might have meant by your question. If all creation was always 'in' God, then all of creation would be God also since it always existed 'in' God as you purpose. That which always exists must be equal to God and creation is not equal to God but creation is a new work of God made from nothing and with a beginning.

    Anyway, it is interesting to read of these early church father's opinions.

    #265317
     Lightenup 
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    Here Theophilus speaks about the begetting of the Word, the firstborn, and the notes clarify that the Word was generated, not created, also that the Word was at first internal in God and that God was not 'with' God until He generated this Word, the firstborn of all creation.

    Quote
    CHAPTER XXII.—WHY GOD IS SAID TO HAVE WALKED.
    You will say, then, to me: “You said that God ought not to be contained in a place, and how do you now say that He walked in Paradise?” Hear what I say. The God and Father, indeed, of all cannot be contained, and is not found in a place, for there is no place of His rest; but His Word, through whom He made all things, being His power and His wisdom, assuming the person594594 The annotators here warn us against supposing that “person” is used as it was afterwards employed in discussing the doctrine of the Trinity, and show that the word is used in its original meaning, and with reference to an actor taking up a mask and personating a character. of the Father and Lord of all, went to the garden in the person of God, and conversed with Adam. For the divine writing itself teaches us that Adam said that he had heard the voice. But what else is this voice but the Word of God, who is also His Son? Not as the poets and writers of myths talk of the sons of gods begotten from intercourse [with women], but as truth expounds, the Word, that always exists, residing within the heart of God. For before anything came into being He had Him as a counsellor, being His own mind and thought. But when God wished to make all that He determined on, He begot this Word, uttered,595595 Προφορικός, the term used of the Logos as manifested; the Word as uttered by the Father, in distinction from the Word immanent in Him. [Theophilus is the first author who distinguishes between the Logos ἐνδιάθετος (cap. x, supra) and the Logos προφορικός; the Word internal, and the Word emitted. Kaye’s Justin, p. 171.] the first-born of all creation, not Himself being emptied of the Word [Reason], but having begotten Reason, and always conversing with His Reason. And hence the holy writings teach us, and all the spirit-bearing [inspired] men, one of whom, John, says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,”596596 John i. 1. showing that at first God was alone, and the Word in Him. Then he says, “The Word was God; all things came into existence through Him; and apart from Him not one thing came into existence.” The Word, then, being God, and being naturally597597 That is, being produced by generation, not by creation. produced from God, whenever the Father of the universe wills, He sends Him to any place; and He, coming, is both heard and seen, being sent by Him, and is found in a place.

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.iv.ii.ii.xxii.html

    This is easier to read at the webpage because the notes are set apart whereas here the notes are mixed in the writing.

    #265318
     terraricca 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 07 2010,13:57)
    Hi Pierre,
    Theophilus, whom I am reading today, says the Word was generated and NOT created.  Those things that were created came from nothing but the thought of God and made by the Word of God who had first been internal, within the heart of God, and then begotten, becoming the Word emitted from God.  So first, God was alone with the Word within Him, then he uses the terms: He uttered the Word, begot the Word, and generated the Word to all mean that now He was not alone but His Word was God with Him.
     
    The Word was always in the 'bowels' of the one God and at some point, emitted from the bowels of the one God before the ages.  This is my understanding of what he is saying anyway.  Theophilus also calls the Word “God”

    I forgot to put up the source of the quoted excerpt above, it is:
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.iv.ii.ii.x.html

    I will go add it after I post this.

    You can read this excerpt to see that Theophilus makes a distinction between the Word being generated and not created.

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.iv.ii.ii.xxii.html
    I will quote this in my next post.

    you asked:

    Quote
    with your view about the word'  that he was in God before he was created is right,but then all of creation was in there at the same time is it not?

    I do not think that saying all creation was 'in' God along with the Word is an accurate understanding.  I know that I paraphrased your question but I wrote it in a way that I understand what you might have meant by your question.  If all creation was always 'in' God, then all of creation would be God also since it always existed 'in' God as you purpose.  That which always exists must be equal to God and creation is not equal to God but creation is a new work of God made from nothing and with a beginning.

    Anyway, it is interesting to read of these early church father's opinions.


    Katty

    no this is not totally right of what i say;

    what i try to say is that all men seed where in Adam even you and I, how that sounds?

    so that if Christ creation (i do not argue over words)is the beginning ,it is obvious that he came out of God ,no argument there right?
    now scriptures say that all other creation came trough Christ so out of Christ ,no argument there right??

    there is no such a thing coming out of nothing ,only nothing comes out of nothing.

    Pierre

    #265319
     terraricca 
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    Katty

    I forget,i have read most of that stuff long time ago and found it of little use ,those are only opinions just like most of the people today here and in all churches,

    the scriptures are the true word of God.no one will never be able to deny that.and not be called a liar.

    Pierre

    #265320
     Lightenup 
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    Pierre,
    I find the writings fascinating. For instance, if you were a child of a veteran of WWll, you would have been brought up with stories from first handed veterans about the war and you could somewhat understand the important facts of WWll because it happened close to your lifetime and directly affected people that were close to you. Now compare the American Revolutionary War…it was hundreds of years ago and you would not directly know anyone involved. Which war would you be able to explain better?

    In comparison, I would rather read writings from someone that lived as close to the time of Christ as possible and get their perspective. The Bible is of course the most important writing but Jesus told the disciples to go into the world and make disciples, teaching them all the things which He had taught them. Don't you think that they obeyed that and don't you think that those teachings would reflect basic things like if Jesus was pre-existent or not? That shouldn't be a confusing truth. I am finding in the writings that the Son did pre-exist before the ages and most often referred to as the Word of God that was begotten before the ages and is the firstborn of all creation, not as part of creation but as the foundation of that which would be created through Him. And He is the God of God, and that there is one true unbegotten God and His only begotten Son and His Spirit which are both of the one true God, the Father.

    I see the early church fathers as ones that would know what the basic truths are better than anyone here because of their more direct influences that they had and that many of them died for what they believed about Christ.

    The Father, Son and Spirit are often spoken of together but it doesn't seem the same as the current trinity mindset. The Father is always spoken of as the one true God and the Son and the Spirit are purposely 'of' Him (and beforehand were 'within' Him) to create His creation and to manifest who He is to His creation as well as to redeem His creation.

    I suggest that you study the scriptures first with the help of the Holy Spirit and then see if the early Christians were teaching the same basic thing. If not, I would think that you are on the ground of new and likely false teaching and very susceptible to being wrong.

    Also, if something is black but you tell me that it is white because you don't argue over words, you are just being deceptive unless you are convinced that it really is white and not black. If so, you ought to be easily able to prove it. If you can't, you ought to stick with the early disciples say as being most likely.

    Further more, you make statements that there is no such a thing coming out of nothing. If that were true the scriptures would tell us that and matter would be another God of different natures than the one true God.:;):

    God bless you,
    Kathi (not Katty) :;):

    #265321
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,15:56)
    What did the ante-nicene church fathers say about the Son as the firstborn of/over all creation? Do they indicate that the Son was the first to come forth from God and then through Him all things came into being? Or did they indicate something else by calling him the firstborn of/over all creation (Col 1)?


    Hi Kathi,

    The word “all/every” is genetive. That means in English we add the word “of” in front of it, not “over”. The “over” is added in trinitarian sponsored translations that don't like any scripture that implies that Jesus had a beginning, and therefore had to get rid of that pesky word “of”.

    So it either reads, “firstborn OF every creature”, or “firstborn OF all creation”. Either way, the word “over” does not apply.

    mike

    #265322
     Lightenup 
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    Mike,
    We have already discussed this and looked at the explanation of the NET Bible. I don't think that either word makes a difference since I believe both words to be true. He was the first one begotten of God of all creation and He is over all creation, not inferior to it.

    #265323
     mikeboll64 
    Participant
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    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 07 2010,12:56)
    Mike,
    We have already discussed this and looked at the explanation of the NET Bible.  I don't think that either word makes a difference since I believe both words to be true.  He was the first one begotten of God of all creation and He is over all creation, not inferior to it.


    Yeah, I saw that explanation myself.  They call it a “genetive of subordination”.  

    First, how do they come to the conclusion that the scripture means Jesus is “over” the rest of creation?  

    Second, they list no other scriptures where they use “over” for the genetive form of “pas”.  

    Third, if they want you to think Jesus is “preeminent over creation”, then aren't they forgetting someone else?  Jehovah is preeminent over Jesus, and He would therefore be the preeminent One over creation also, not His “second in command”.  

    Fourth, both Eusebius and (I think) Ignatius say Jesus was the “firstborn of every creature” BEFORE THE AGES, or BEFORE THE WORLDS.  What “creation” was there for him to be “preeminent over” BEFORE THE AGES?

    Too many holes in that one Kathi.  Best to just take the words to mean what the words actually mean instead of guessing they mean something else and then making up new rules of Greek grammar to support your “guess”.

    mike

    #265324
     terraricca 
    Participant
    • Topics started 67
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    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 07 2010,19:07)
    Pierre,
    I find the writings fascinating.  For instance, if you were a child of a veteran of WWll, you would have been brought up with stories from first handed veterans about the war and you could somewhat understand the important facts of WWll because it happened close to your lifetime and directly affected people that were close to you.  Now compare the American Revolutionary War…it was hundreds of years ago and you would not directly know anyone involved.  Which war would you be able to explain better?  

    In comparison, I would rather read writings from someone that lived as close to the time of Christ as possible and get their perspective.  The Bible is of course the most important writing but Jesus told the disciples to go into the world and make disciples, teaching them all the things which He had taught them.  Don't you think that they obeyed that and don't you think that those teachings would reflect basic things like if Jesus was pre-existent or not?  That shouldn't be a confusing truth.  I am finding in the writings that the Son did pre-exist before the ages and most often referred to as the Word of God that was begotten before the ages and is the firstborn of all creation, not as part of creation but as the foundation of that which would be created through Him. And He is the God of God, and that there is one true unbegotten God and His only begotten Son and His Spirit which are both of the one true God, the Father.

    I see the early church fathers as ones that would know what the basic truths are better than anyone here because of their more direct influences that they had and that many of them died for what they believed about Christ.

    The Father, Son and Spirit are often spoken of together but it doesn't seem the same as the current trinity mindset.  The Father is always spoken of as the one true God and the Son and the Spirit are purposely 'of' Him (and beforehand were 'within' Him) to create His creation and to manifest who He is to His creation as well as to redeem His creation.

    I suggest that you study the scriptures first with the help of the Holy Spirit and then see if the early Christians were teaching the same basic thing.  If not, I would think that you are on the ground of new and likely false teaching and very susceptible to being wrong.

    Also, if something is black but you tell me that it is white because you don't argue over words, you are just being deceptive unless you are convinced that it really is white and not black.  If so, you ought to be easily able to prove it.  If you can't, you ought to stick with the early disciples say as being most likely.

    Further more, you make statements that there is no such a thing coming out of nothing.  If that were true the scriptures would tell us that and matter would be another God of different natures than the one true God.:;):

    God bless you,
    Kathi (not Katty) :;):


    Kathi

    i do not know where you get your wisdom,

    how is it that someone closer to Jesus time would more truthful than the scriptures today ,
    do you believe that the problem of society lays not in how closer we are to each other but how honestly and truthful a person his.

    since there is men after sin nothing is any good,and the good there is is quickly disposed of one way or another.

    so now you do not believe me when i say there is nothing coming out of nothing ?

    show me where it is that something comes out nothing??

    i am now curious.

    Pierre

    #265325
     Lightenup 
    Participant
    • Topics started 63
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    Well Mike,
    As I said I don't think it makes a difference because both are true. He was not the second born of or over all creation or even before creation, He was the firstborn of the creation that came through Him and He became the firstborn before the ages and before anything was created. Eusebius says that He was the foundation of the coming creation, not a part of creation Himself.

    I'm fine with either 'of' or 'over.'

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