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Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2011,17:11) Paladin, Jesus was and is a Jew as God appointed the Hebrew people as a people chosen to spread his word throughout the world. That is why Jesus restricted himself to teaching only the Hebrew peoples in order to prepare those that would spread the word from Jerusalem in accordance with prophecy. Therefore the Jews of today have a common root with those that adhere to the true doctrine of Christ as it is also the true Jewish doctrine. I admit the Rabbinical Jews are heretics but so are many Christian sects and yet the opinions of both can be helpful in correctly understanding scripture as they present another viewpoint. Of course it is necessary to test that viewpoint in order to see if it is from God.
I see that you have tested this one and have trouble with the word “attribute”. I certainly would not use that word to describe the Spirit's relationship to God even in the context of an object belonging to God.
God’s spirit is to him as our spirit is to us. Since I believe that I would say that God’s spirit is part of him with some traits of individuality but yet not a separate person.
From what I understand Rhema and Logos are two different aspects of the Word of God. Rema is the revelation of the Logos and Logos in this case is the deep things of God.
So the deep things of God were God and were with God.
Looking at “married to” as a plausible interpretation of “Ginomai” we would find that the deep things of God united with flesh in the same context that a woman is married to a man in Romans 7:3 and Christians are married to Christ in Romans 7:4.
It is the Spirit of God that reveals the deep things of God.
The following references are from King James Version of Scripture.
Quote Quote Ro 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Quote Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Oh I agree my friend, I simply point out the possibilities of others who like to develope their own doctrines from mixing and matching synonyms in place of translations.I have no problem with what you have said, other than the fact “married” is better understood between a man and wife; or between Jesus as the bridegroom and his church as the bride in a spiritual relationship compared to a marriage in scripture; but to say the logos married flesh… I would not say that for the following reason –
Since the flesh under consideration is presumably a saint, living so that Christ lives in him, to say it is the logos married to the saint, would then be tantamount to saying Christ is the logos, and that, scripture never says. In fact, it refrains from so doing because Jesus is not the logos. He is the bridegroom, the logos is not.
That would be a disaster as far as Paul and John's exposition of the logos of God is concerned.
Marty!
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Notice the last part of verse 14 (we beheld his glory, the glory of the ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER< full of grace and truth.
This is not Jesus?
Well I think it is, just like Rev. 19:13-16 is….Jesus will come back as The Word of God, Scripture in Rev. 19 shows us to be true….Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
LORD, KING, THE WORD OF GOD< GOD are all titles….used instead of Almighty God and Jesus….then you quoted Hebrew
Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the scepter of thy kingdom.Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Notice verse 10, in the beginning hast LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH< AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF THINE HANDS….. it is by Jesus that Almighty God created all.
John 1 tells us so… Hebrew 1:10 tells us so and Col. 1;16 tells us so……Jesus is the firstborn of all creation….. Col. 1 and Rev. 3;14
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
This is speaking about Jesus….
Peace IreneQuote (Pastry @ May 26 2011,05:27) Marty!
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Notice the last part of verse 14 (we beheld his glory, the glory of the ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER< full of grace and truth.
This is not Jesus?
Well I think it is, just like Rev. 19:13-16 is….Jesus will come back as The Word of God, Scripture in Rev. 19 shows us to be true….Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
LORD, KING, THE WORD OF GOD< GOD are all titles….used instead of Almighty God and Jesus….then you quoted Hebrew
Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the scepter of thy kingdom.Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Notice verse 10, in the beginning hast LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH< AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF THINE HANDS….. it is by Jesus that Almighty God created all.
John 1 tells us so… Hebrew 1:10 tells us so and Col. 1;16 tells us so……Jesus is the firstborn of all creation….. Col. 1 and Rev. 3;14
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
This is speaking about Jesus….
Peace Irene
Hi Irene:I have already been over this with you time and time again.
The scripture states in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The Greek Word that was translated “Word” here and in John 1:14 is “Logos”.
The “Logos” pertains to Jesus but he is not the “Logos”. John 1:14 states and the “Logos” became flesh. The “Logos” is what God has spoken pertaining to Jesus. This became a reality.
Where do you see the name “Jesus” in John 1:1. It does not say in the beginning was “Jesus” and “Jesus” was with God, and “Jesus” was God, does it?
I don't know how I can explain my understanding of this any better that I have done here.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Irene and Paladin,
Quote “There was a man sent from God” Where did God send this man from?
Irene your answer to this post didn't seem, to my mind, to answer the question. My answer is that God sent this man(John the Baptist) from God's own self. My reasoning is that God has sent many prophets. God communicates to his prophets prophesies. These prophesies include, to the best of my understanding, warnings of wrong-doings and exhortations to cease them and get back to doing things right in accordance with God's will, knowledge of future events, condemnations to those who are being led by that which is evil and probably other things that I am not fully understanding or aware of right now. This I believe God does in his mercy to communcate to the evil/wrong doers that he is not happy with them and if they don't change thier ways will receive a harsh judgement. Christ Jesus also functioned as a prophet of God in his capacity the Son of God. Christ Jesus is also the fulfillment of alot of phrophesy in the OT. All those prophesies related to Christ Jesus were in God in heaven's mind before he communicated them them to the people of the world. They were from heaven. Christ Jesus was aware he was the fulfillment of prophesy, therefore, it is in this sense that he knew he was sent from heaven.With Love and even more love,
WispringQuote (Paladin @ May 25 2011,02:36)
That is not scripture Mike, that is pure doctrinal biased rending of scripture to promote a point of view. “Man” is a noun; “mankind” is an adjective.1 Timothy 2:5 says “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
Paladin, I've never argued the “men” versus “mankind” point. Use “men” if you think it makes some difference – that's fine with me.What I was talking about was the fact that 1 Tim 2:5 doesn't say Jesus is STILL a man. And THAT'S the misunderstanding I'll show you at some later time. What does 1 Tim 2:5 have to do with Phil 2 anyway? How is this an answer to my question: How does someone who already IS a human being be made in the likeness of a human being?
Quote (Paladin @ May 25 2011,02:36)
It has already been answered enought times to make it clear.
Perhaps to someone else. I have just recently asked you about Phil 2, and I would like a brief answer to my question above if you don't mind. You can use the template I've made if you want, so that it is easy for me to understand exactly what you believe.Quote (Paladin @ May 25 2011,02:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 24 2011,14:40) Quote (Paladin @ May 23 2011,07:30) The reason being, if “theos” is translated “a god” it gives credence to the Jehovah's Witness theology.
“JW theology”? What's that? Of course the indefinite article is implied and by all means should be added in the English translations. 1:1 OBVIOUSLY speaks of TWO, one of which was WITH the other. If only one of them is THE god, then the other is a DIFFERENT god who was WITH “THE god”. Hence, the Word was A god who was WITH THE God. God cannot be WITH God, nor would an “essence” or “attribute” OF God be said to be WITH God. For example, the “love of God” is never said to be WITH God, as if it's a separate entity from Him, right?Acknowledging that the JW's are the only one's to translate John 1:1 correctly is not to give any credence to any other thing they say. (Although they are right on track with 99% of their understanding of the scriptures, IMO.)
And Kerwin, the definite article “the” is present before the god in 1:1b, so “No”, the God that the Word was with cannot be translated as “a god”, if that's what you were asking. John has specified that the word was with THE God, so it cannot be translated “the Word was with A god”.
Proof that Mike does not read his own post before he publishes it.
Quote Of course the indefinite article is implied and by all means should be added in the English translations. 1:1 OBVIOUSLY speaks of TWO, one of which was WITH the other. If only one of them is THE god, then the other is a DIFFERENT god who was WITH “THE god”. Quote it cannot be translated “the Word was with A god”
Really Paladin? Maybe it's YOU who needs to proof read.The indefinite article should be added in 1:1c. It cannot be added in 1:1b because John already used the definite article. Kerwin was asking YOU if the “A” could be added in both mentions of “god”. You apparently didn't understand his question, so I was answering him that it could not be added in 1:1b – because the definite article is already there.
Have you noticed that every time you try to make me look foolish or deceitful, (out of your extreme brotherly love for me), it backfires on you?
Maybe you should stop trying, and just have an honest discussion instead.
mike
Quote (Paladin @ May 25 2011,02:49) The king is supreme. The kings sends subbordinates, who speak in his stead. The issue is “obey the laws of subbordinates as you the laws of the king.” Peter's reference is “whether unto the king as supreme or unto governors as tham that are sent.
So like I've been saying: Do you think the use of the word “whether” in this scripture excludes every human institution EXCEPT FOR the two that are specifically mentioned by title – kings and governors?Or does the use of “whether” mean to obey every human institution INCLUDING kings and governors, but NOT EXCLUDING cops, nuns, judges, and other subordinates of the king?
It has to be one of the other, right?
Quote (Paladin @ May 25 2011,03:21) Paul excluded everything except thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers, by his use of the limting paramater “whether.” Peter used “whether” to reference the king as supreme, and any subbordinate chosen by the king.
No, if Paul excluded everything except thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers, by his use of the limting paramater “whether”, then Peter excluded everything except for kings and governors with his use of it.How do you get “any subordinate chosen by the king” from the specific word “governors”?
Quote (Paladin @ May 25 2011,03:07)
It was John who said
“in the beginning was the logos
and the logos was with ton theon
and the logos was theos.”“And ho logos became flesh”
Correct. Now since we all know that God Himself didn't become flesh, or “not God”, and since we all know that TWO are mentioned in John 1:1, based on the fact that one was WITH the other, and since we know that the indefinite article “a” was added into English translations for clarity over 9000 times because the Hebrew and Greek languages didn't use the indefinite article, is it so hard to see that the Word was with THE God, and was A god?I have run you full circle around and around YOUR understanding, which is based on the Word somehow being the same God he was WITH. And we always end up with something that WAS at one time God Himself becoming flesh and “not God”.
Quote (Paladin @ May 25 2011,03:07)
John, on the other hand, was quite clear in his use of words, and he was inspired clay, so try to listen to what he was inspired to write: “In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with God, and the logos was God.”
Here's where the problem starts. The majority of English translations omit the definite article “THE”, that precedes the God mentioned in 1:1b, and then cap the “G” in the god mentioned in 1:1c, leaving English readers with the translator's intended understanding that the Logos was both WITH God Almighty and WAS God Almighty.But common sense will tell you that God Almighty cannot be WITH God Almighty. So apparently, there are TWO gods mentioned, and only ONE of them is referred to as “THE God”. And if the OTHER god mentioned is not “THE God” he was WITH, then he is “A god”.
Psalm 82:1 KJV
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty ; he judgeth among the godsGenesis 23:6 KJV
Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us.In these two scriptures, the KJV translates a word for “god” as “mighty”. I am confident that the JW's translate John 1:1 correctly: In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
But if you don't like to think of more than one god in scripture, (although many are clearly mentioned, including Jesus as the “only begotten god”), then perhaps you would be happier with “mighty”, like KJV used in the above scriptures: In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was mighty.
Either way, John 1:1 CLEARLY speaks of TWO, one of whom was WITH the other. You can either accept that, or keep spinning your doctrine round and round like you have been. Your own words say, “Forget anything that stumbling bumbling fool Paladin might have said. He will be the first to tell you he is faulted clay, not to be taken seriously.”
All of us are “faulted clay” Paladin. The true test of a pupil of God's written word is whether or not one is willing to adjust their own beliefs when light is shed upon their error. I have shed such light on your understanding that something that WAS the person of God Almighty became something else that was “not God Almighty”. I have showed you the truth that two are mentioned in 1:1, and only one of those two is God Almighty.
Quote (Paladin @ May 25 2011,03:07)
“And the logos became flesh.”
Therefore we know that the logos was never the person of God Almighty, right? Because not only can something that was WITH God Almighty also BE God Almighty, but something that WAS God Almighty can never become “not God Almighty”.Conclusion: The Logos never was God Almighty to begin with, but someone else who was WITH God Almighty, and then became flesh. The popular translation “and the Word was God” is false, illogical, and misleading. Don't buy into it. The Word was very obviously someone else who was WITH God Almighty in the beginning – someone who John saw fit to attribute the title “theos”, as he did in 1:18.
mike
Paladin,
While we're on the subject:
Genesis 17:5 KJV
Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.Does the wording “name be called Abram” mean anything other than that Abraham's actual name used to be “Abram”? If not, then you have no basis for claiming “His name is called the Word of God” means anything other than his actual name is the Word of God.
Also, you claim that the glory of the only begotten from the Father that the Word had when it became flesh refers to the glory of Jesus Christ. But you don't think Jesus became the only begotten from the Father until he was raised from the dead. How could the Word have been seen as having the glory on earth of something that didn't yet exist?
Quote (942767 @ May 26 2011,06:39) Quote (Pastry @ May 26 2011,05:27) Marty!
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Notice the last part of verse 14 (we beheld his glory, the glory of the ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER< full of grace and truth.
This is not Jesus?
Well I think it is, just like Rev. 19:13-16 is….Jesus will come back as The Word of God, Scripture in Rev. 19 shows us to be true….Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
LORD, KING, THE WORD OF GOD< GOD are all titles….used instead of Almighty God and Jesus….then you quoted Hebrew
Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the scepter of thy kingdom.Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Notice verse 10, in the beginning hast LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH< AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF THINE HANDS….. it is by Jesus that Almighty God created all.
John 1 tells us so… Hebrew 1:10 tells us so and Col. 1;16 tells us so……Jesus is the firstborn of all creation….. Col. 1 and Rev. 3;14
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
This is speaking about Jesus….
Peace Irene
Hi Irene:I have already been over this with you time and time again.
The scripture states in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The Greek Word that was translated “Word” here and in John 1:14 is “Logos”.
The “Logos” pertains to Jesus but he is not the “Logos”. John 1:14 states and the “Logos” became flesh. The “Logos” is what God has spoken pertaining to Jesus. This became a reality.
Where do you see the name “Jesus” in John 1:1. It does not say in the beginning was “Jesus” and “Jesus” was with God, and “Jesus” was God, does it?
I don't know how I can explain my understanding of this any better that I have done here.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Yes, Marty its your understanding and I don't agree….Peace Irene
Paladin,
I employed ideas from 1 Corinthians 2:10-13 in my last post but did not note that I had referenced it. If you look at verse 13; then you will find that the Holy Spirit teaches (reveals) the Logos. That is the relationship between the Spirit, which is Rhema, and the Logos that I was attempting to make clear in my last post.
Further reading of this scripture informs us that the Spirit reveals the deep things of God. That is why I set the Logos equal to the “deep things of God”.
If you read John 1:18 then you are taught that the only begotten Son is both at the bosom of God and reveals God. We are also instructed the Spirit is in God and reveals the deep things of God in 1 Corinthians 2:10-11.
I believe you understand that scripture uses synecdoche at times; which is when a part is used to refer to a whole. One example of this is during the flood account in Genesis 6:13 when the word “flesh” is used to refer to living creatures. This is also used in 1 Corinthians 2:11 when the spirit of a man is spoken of as a man. So if the spirit of a man is spoken of as a man then it only follows the Spirit of God be spoken of as God and we know that the Spirit of God is thus both with God and is God just as the spirit of man is both the man and is with the man. The spirit is the Rhema which reveals the Logos and thus where the Rhema is the Logos is also.
When a man and woman marry they become one just as Jesus and God is one and the church and Jesus are one. So using the same synecdoche as I mentioned earlier with the flesh, spoken of in John and being the human being Jesus, marries the Logos, which is revealed by the Spirit and is the deep things of God, making the two one even as a man and woman become one. Scripture teaches us that in a like manner the church become one with Christ through the Spirit. It also teaches us that those that believe become one even as Jesus and God are one.
In this way Jesus inherits the Spirit of God and the thus becomes the Son of God as the two have become one in the same way a woman leaves her family and becomes a member of her husband’s family.
I admit that this is hard for some to understand but just as God lives in believers through his Spirit so does Jesus. We are told that the deep things of God are revealed to believers through his Spirit and thus it follows that the deep things of Jesus Christ are also revealed to believers through the same Spirit. That is why the Spirit will teach believers all things and remind us of all that Jesus taught the apostles. So Jesus the Anointed is not the Logos but rather he reveals the Logos by the Spirit that dwells in him.
All the following references are from the King James Version of Scripture.
Quote Quote 1 Corinthians 2 (King James Version) 10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Quote John 1 (King James Version) 18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Quote Genesis 6 (King James Version) 13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2011,17:21) Paladin, I employed ideas from 1 Corinthians 2:10-13 in my last post but did not note that I had referenced it. If you look at verse 13; then you will find that the Holy Spirit teaches (reveals) the Logos. That is the relationship between the Spirit, which is Rhema, and the Logos that I was attempting to make clear in my last post.
Further reading of this scripture informs us that the Spirit reveals the deep things of God. That is why I set the Logos equal to the “deep things of God”.
If you read John 1:18 then you are taught that the only begotten Son is both at the bosom of God and reveals God. We are also instructed the Spirit is in God and reveals the deep things of God in 1 Corinthians 2:10-11.
I believe you understand that scripture uses synecdoche at times; which is when a part is used to refer to a whole. One example of this is during the flood account in Genesis 6:13 when the word “flesh” is used to refer to living creatures. This is also used in 1 Corinthians 2:11 when the spirit of a man is spoken of as a man. So if the spirit of a man is spoken of as a man then it only follows the Spirit of God be spoken of as God and we know that the Spirit of God is thus both with God and is God just as the spirit of man is both the man and is with the man. The spirit is the Rhema which reveals the Logos and thus where the Rhema is the Logos is also.
When a man and woman marry they become one just as Jesus and God is one and the church and Jesus are one. So using the same synecdoche as I mentioned earlier with the flesh, spoken of in John and being the human being Jesus, marries the Logos, which is revealed by the Spirit and is the deep things of God, making the two one even as a man and woman become one. Scripture teaches us that in a like manner the church become one with Christ through the Spirit. It also teaches us that those that believe become one even as Jesus and God are one.
In this way Jesus inherits the Spirit of God and the thus becomes the Son of God as the two have become one in the same way a woman leaves her family and becomes a member of her husband’s family.
I admit that this is hard for some to understand but just as God lives in believers through his Spirit so does Jesus. We are told that the deep things of God are revealed to believers through his Spirit and thus it follows that the deep things of Jesus Christ are also revealed to believers through the same Spirit. That is why the Spirit will teach believers all things and remind us of all that Jesus taught the apostles. So Jesus the Anointed is not the Logos but rather he reveals the Logos by the Spirit that dwells in him.
All the following references are from the King James Version of Scripture.
Quote Quote 1 Corinthians 2 (King James Version) 10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Quote John 1 (King James Version) 18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Quote Genesis 6 (King James Version) 13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Kerwin………Excellent post brother , I see it that way also , GOD and His Logos are one and the same thing, GOD the Father was truly (IN) Jesus via HIS Spirit. When Jesus said the Father was (IN) Him He truly meant the Father was (IN) Him and Speaking (First Person) through HIM. God and his WORD are one and the same thing, just as a man and His words are one and the same thing. IMO
And the both are Spirit. You have explained it as I understand it brother.peace and love to you and your……………………..gene
To All…………..God who (IS) and (WAS) the logos are one and the same and the (IS) and (WAS) made His appearance (IN) the Flesh of Jesus by way of the CHRISTOS. Why cant we SEE what Thomas saw “MY Lord AND MY GOD”. What [part of and do we not understand here. The Logos who was and is GOD (came to be) or (became) in flesh , the flesh man Jesus. Just as Jesus himself said ” THE FATHER (IN) ME (HE) DOTH THE WORKS”. IMO
peace and love to you all……………………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 27 2011,01:56) To All…………..God who (IS) and (WAS) the logos are one and the same and the (IS) and (WAS) made His appearance (IN) the Flesh of Jesus by way of the CHRISTOS. Why cant we SEE what Thomas saw “MY Lord AND MY GOD”. What [part of and do we not understand here. The Logos who was and is GOD (came to be) or (became) in flesh , the flesh man Jesus. Just as Jesus himself said ” THE FATHER (IN) ME (HE) DOTH THE WORKS”. IMO peace and love to you all……………………………………………gene
Hi Gene:My understanding the Logos that became flesh is that which God had spoken pertaining to Jesus. God himself did not become flesh. And what He has spoken “is God” in that through His Word we see his character made manifest.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2011,13:18) Paladin, While we're on the subject:
Genesis 17:5 KJV
Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.Does the wording “name be called Abram” mean anything other than that Abraham's actual name used to be “Abram”? If not, then you have no basis for claiming “His name is called the Word of God” means anything other than his actual name is the Word of God.
Also, you claim that the glory of the only begotten from the Father that the Word had when it became flesh refers to the glory of Jesus Christ. But you don't think Jesus became the only begotten from the Father until he was raised from the dead. How could the Word have been seen as having the glory on earth of something that didn't yet exist?
o.k. Mike, we're half way there… Now all you have to do is find the family name “The man who hath his shoe loosed in Israel.”Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 27 2011,01:56) To All…………..God who (IS) and (WAS) the logos are one and the same and the (IS) and (WAS) made His appearance (IN) the Flesh of Jesus by way of the CHRISTOS. Why cant we SEE what Thomas saw “MY Lord AND MY GOD”. What [part of and do we not understand here. The Logos who was and is GOD (came to be) or (became) in flesh , the flesh man Jesus. Just as Jesus himself said ” THE FATHER (IN) ME (HE) DOTH THE WORKS”. IMO peace and love to you all……………………………………………gene
Gene, how can God be corrupted?If God is the logos, and the logos can be corrupted, then God can be corrupted.
Paul told the disciples, “For we are not as many, which corrupt the logos of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ” [II Cor 2:17]
Man oh man, you guys mess John 1:1 up so much…. There are two beings in that Scripture. If you would only read correctly what it says.,…. Also we have Rev. 19 that clarifies who The Word of God is…..
God and The Word of God are titles. Just like President, King, Lord, LORD is…. Both have other names. Read this Scriptures with an open mind….
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.Peace Irene
Paladin………What may be good to understand is What are we calling GOD, is God a Person, or a Spirit which can inter a person< and then we need to see what is SPIRIT. Many think GOD is a individual being in fact even Jesus seem to have leads us to believe that also, in some places, but notice this what Jesus said. Pleas notice this Paladin,
Mat 10:19-20…..> But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what you shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what you shall speak. Now please Notice Paldin, Verse 20…..> For it is not (YOU) that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks (IN) you.
Now Paladin the Father who is GOD a Spirit does existed (IN) a Person. So when Jesus said the FATHER was (IN) Him tell me was GOD (IN) Jesus actually or not it does appear that the Father was indeed (IN) Jesus (first Person) Speaking through HIM. Then you Add what Thomas also said “My Lord (AND MY GOD”. This also makes it appear GOD was indeed Present (IN) Jesus right? So when Jesus said the Father (IN) Me HE doth the WORKS, that implies a actual first person representation of GOD the Father (IN) Jesus. do you follow where i am coming from brother.
To me Paladin, GOD or Elohim is Not a individual Person He is a Spirit (INTELLECT) with POWER, and can exist in and through his creation. We are told there are SEVEN Spirits of GOD. Revelation shows these Seven Spirit are (IN) Jesus with Powers, and these seven Spirit are described as the Eyes of GOD that exist going to and fro throughout the whole world.
There is also something to consider i think, that is where Jesus said the he spoke about the Father in Proverbs (fictitious illustration) but a time would come when he would show the Father plainly to them. So could it be that the Father who we know as GOD, is actually pure spirit and can in join himself (IN) People via His very spirit presents?. And in this way “GOD MAY BE ALL AND IN YOU ALL”< WOULD BE AN ACTUAL FACT OF LIFE. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………..gene
Quote (Paladin @ May 26 2011,13:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2011,13:18) Paladin, While we're on the subject:
Genesis 17:5 KJV
Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.Does the wording “name be called Abram” mean anything other than that Abraham's actual name used to be “Abram”? If not, then you have no basis for claiming “His name is called the Word of God” means anything other than his actual name is the Word of God.
o.k. Mike, we're half way there… Now all you have to do is find the family name “The man who hath his shoe loosed in Israel.”
Good, thanks for the acknowledgement, Paladin.Now, if you could show me the scripture where a man chose not to bring up children for his brother, then we can examine the scriptures related to that man to see if he was ever called “The man who hath his shoe loosed in Israel.”
If there is no occasion of this recorded, then we can't use your scripture for proof one way or the other, right?
Which leaves us only with my scripture, right? And my scripture shows that “name will be called” is just another way of saying, “his name is/was”, right?
mike
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