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Quote (Paladin @ April 21 2011,16:59)
I have hesitated this long to post this because I feel that perhaps I need to let things cool just a tad before responding, as words may tend to escalate for all the wrong reasons.
Okay. So now that things have had time to cool, let's go back to my actual points.1. Was anyone ever said to have actually seen Jesus ascend from sheol back to the earth. YES or NO?
2. Was anyone ever said to have actually seen Jesus ascend to heaven? YES or NO?
3. Do you have any scriptural validation to support your assumption that, in the middle of teaching about how he came down from heaven, Jesus followed up this teaching by speaking of “ascending to where he was before”, meaning “from sheol back to the earth”? YES or NO?
4. The Jews in John 6 understood that Jesus was speaking of the man, Jesus of Nazareth, as COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN. Do you have any scriptural reason to claim that Jesus was in fact, NOT doing this?
1 Corinthians 2:4 NKJV
And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power…….5. The two bolded and underlined words in the scripture above are the word “logos”. What underlying message is conveyed by Paul's use of “logos” here instead of “rhema”; and how would the meaning of his statement have been altered had he chose to use the word “rhema” instead of “logos”?
(I saw where you answered Wispring about this last one. But your answer didn't really answer my question.) I was hoping for something like:
If Paul had used “rhema”, it would have meant “this”, but because he chose to use “logos”, the meaning is “that”.
Quote (Paladin @ April 21 2011,16:59)
I offer you the same offer I made Irene, Mike, to debate beginning in the old testament
Let's see if you're capable of answering these questions BRIEFLY and TO THE POINT before jumping off that bridge, okay?You can take these questions one at a time if you like. I prefer it that way myself.
mike
Hi Mike:
You say:
Quote What you did was show scriptures that explained how Jesus came to be IN THE FLESH. Not one of those scriptures prohibits Jesus from a pre-existence before he came to be in the flesh. And so, you are saying that by showing you this that I have showed you that Jesus did not pre-exist his birth into this world as a man is that correct?
The scripture also states the following:
Quote Matthew 1:20-23 (King James Version) 20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Quote Luke 1:30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And so, by these scriptures did Jesus pre-exist as the “Only Begotten Son of God?
And John 1:14 and the Word became flesh is this not the same as what I have shown you, that is how he became a man?
And you say:
Quote But if that's all you have, then you're entitled to your belief. Look, I started individual threads a while back, each pertaining to just one pre-existent scripture. You started the discussion, but then bailed when you couldn't answer questions like “when did Jesus as a man EMPTY HIMSELF of this form of God he had as a man?” I did not bail out on this I told you that Jesus existed in the form of God in his earthly ministry, and interpretation of scripture that you choose is “that he emptied himself”, but the KJV translates it that “he made himself no reputation”, and he did not distinguish himself from any other man in His position as God's only Son and His Christ, but he humbled himself and became obedient even unto death on the cross.
Quote Philippians 2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
And you say:
Quote And it seems some things will never change. You have made your “end run” here with a few scriptures that you think say Jesus didn't pre-exist. I've asked you to show me the exact words in those scriptures that tell you this. You can't, can you? Just like you can't answer the above question. Just like you can't give a good reason why Jesus isn't talking about heaven when he says he came down from heaven and implies he'll ascend to where he was before. The disciples SAW him ascend to “where he was before” with their own eyes for Pete's sake. As you say, I am entitled to my belief and my belief is based on the scriptures that I have given you, and he did exist in the heart of the Father, but no, he did not pre-exist as a sentient person or in other words he did not become a living soul until he was born of the virgin Mary, and I have shown you that his spirit was formed within him as he learned to obey the Word of God from the time of his birth until his death on the cross. The spirit is the life that a living soul lives, and so my spirit or the spirit of Jesus does not exist apart from his or my being a living soul.
As for my being head strong, I am willing to be corrected if I am wrong, but you have to show me something through the scriptures. Mike, you want someone to tell you that maybe it is possible for Jesus to pre-existed his birth into this world as a sentient person. If you are going to teach this, then it is up to you to show that this is true. I don't believe that he pre-existed as a sentient person based on my understanding of the scriptures.
Love in Christ,
MartyPaladin! You quoted that Romans 9:5 is being used to prove the trinity. I have not seen that here on Heaven Net.
I agree that the Scholars added the punctuation, but that they added 50 Scriptures that I don't believe.
Now about what Jesus is after His resurrection from the death.
What purpose is there that Jesus is flesh and Spirit. Scriptures tell us otherwise.1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Even if Jesus blood was drained, Scripture does say, NO FLESH will inherit the Kingdom of God. God is Spirit. And those that are with God, like Jesus is seated next to Almighty God could not be in flesh. And how can flesh be without the body. And the body could not be alive without blood. So I don't believe that to be true….. .and how can you prove that.
Peace and love Irene .
Quote (942767 @ April 23 2011,13:31)
And so, you are saying that by showing you this that I have showed you that Jesus did not pre-exist his birth into this world as a man is that correct?
Not at all. I'm saying if scripture showed how God took Michael the archangel and made him as a human, it wouldn't mean that Michael didn't already exist as a spirit being before God made him as a human being. Do you see what I'm saying? To show how Jesus came to be a human is not to say he wasn't something else before that. So not one of your scriptures do anything to prohibit Jesus from having a pre-human existence.Quote (942767 @ April 23 2011,13:31)
And so, by these scriptures did Jesus pre-exist as the “Only Begotten Son of God?
Do any of them specifically say, or even IMPLY, that he didn't?Quote (942767 @ April 23 2011,13:31)
I did not bail out on this I told you that Jesus existed in the form of God in his earthly ministry, and interpretation of scripture that you choose is “that he emptied himself”, but the KJV translates it that “he made himself no reputation”, and he did not distinguish himself from any other man in His position as God's only Son and His Christ, but he humbled himself and became obedient even unto death on the cross.
And I've asked you when, as a human, he was considered to be “in the form of God”, and when he decided to “empty himself” of this form. Was it at the start of his ministry that he DID distinguish himself from other men, and then at a later point in his ministry, he decided to just lay low and play it cool as if he were any other man?You see Marty, anything you've ever claimed about Phil 2 doesn't work, because you either have to show when, as a human, he was IN THE FORM OF GOD………….or you have to show when, as a human, he EMPTIED HIMSELF of this thing he previously had. And you can't seem to reconcile both sides of the equation together.
Quote (942767 @ April 23 2011,13:31)
Mike, you want someone to tell you that maybe it is possible for Jesus to pre-existed his birth into this world as a sentient person. If you are going to teach this, then it is up to you to show that this is true.
I've shown you 50+ scriptures that allude to his pre-existence, Marty. For example, I just went through a verse by verse explanation of John 6. Jesus point blank says that HE, (not some spirit inside him) came down from heaven. The Jews he was speaking to couldn't understand why this HUMAN BEING who they all knew, (not some spirit inside him), was suddenly claiming he “came down from heaven”. Then he asked what they are going to think when they see him ascend to where he was before. And then some of them actually got to see him ascend to where he was before.To me, this is Jesus claiming that he, the person, came down from heaven and would ascend back there soon. This is also how the Jews understood what he was saying. So that is an example of “me showing it's true”. And what I ask from any of you is not for your strange, abstract, alternate explanations of these very clear words, but for you to show me how MY understanding can't possibly be. Show me scripturally that Jesus couldn't possibly have pre-existed his human existence, and I will believe.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 24 2011,13:27) Quote (942767 @ April 23 2011,13:31)
And so, you are saying that by showing you this that I have showed you that Jesus did not pre-exist his birth into this world as a man is that correct? Not at all. I'm saying if scripture showed how God took Michael the archangel and made him as a human, it wouldn't mean that Michael didn't already exist as a spirit being before God made him as a human being. Do you see what I'm saying? To show how Jesus came to be a human is not to say he wasn't something else before that. So not one of your scriptures do anything to prohibit Jesus from having a pre-human existence.Quote (942767 @ April 23 2011,13:31)
And so, by these scriptures did Jesus pre-exist as the “Only Begotten Son of God?
Do any of them specifically say, or even IMPLY, that he didn't?Quote (942767 @ April 23 2011,13:31)
I did not bail out on this I told you that Jesus existed in the form of God in his earthly ministry, and interpretation of scripture that you choose is “that he emptied himself”, but the KJV translates it that “he made himself no reputation”, and he did not distinguish himself from any other man in His position as God's only Son and His Christ, but he humbled himself and became obedient even unto death on the cross.
And I've asked you when, as a human, he was considered to be “in the form of God”, and when he decided to “empty himself” of this form. Was it at the start of his ministry that he DID distinguish himself from other men, and then at a later point in his ministry, he decided to just lay low and play it cool as if he were any other man?You see Marty, anything you've ever claimed about Phil 2 doesn't work, because you either have to show when, as a human, he was IN THE FORM OF GOD………….or you have to show when, as a human, he EMPTIED HIMSELF of this thing he previously had. And you can't seem to reconcile both sides of the equation together.
Quote (942767 @ April 23 2011,13:31)
Mike, you want someone to tell you that maybe it is possible for Jesus to pre-existed his birth into this world as a sentient person. If you are going to teach this, then it is up to you to show that this is true.
I've shown you 50+ scriptures that allude to his pre-existence, Marty. For example, I just went through a verse by verse explanation of John 6. Jesus point blank says that HE, (not some spirit inside him) came down from heaven. The Jews he was speaking to couldn't understand why this HUMAN BEING who they all knew, (not some spirit inside him), was suddenly claiming he “came down from heaven”. Then he asked what they are going to think when they see him ascend to where he was before. And then some of them actually got to see him ascend to where he was before.To me, this is Jesus claiming that he, the person, came down from heaven and would ascend back there soon. This is also how the Jews understood what he was saying. So that is an example of “me showing it's true”. And what I ask from any of you is not for your strange, abstract, alternate explanations of these very clear words, but for you to show me how MY understanding can't possibly be. Show me scripturally that Jesus couldn't possibly have pre-existed his human existence, and I will believe.
peace,
mike
No, Mike, it is not up to me to show that he couldn't possibly pre-exist as someone else before he became a man, but if you are going to teach this doctrine of pre-existence, the burden is upon you to show that this is true.Happy Easter, Jesus is alive, and because he lives, I can face tomorrow, and because he lives, all my fear is gone, and because I know that he holds my future, my life is worth the living just because he lives.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Mike:
Relative to Jesus being the Only Begotten Son, and that he could not have been that as an angel, the following scripture has come to mind:
Quote Hebrews 1:5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Love in Christ,
Marty942767………Marty you have it right brother., what is becoming very interesting here is how the line is being drawn between two types of Minds, one believes Jesus did not pre-exist his berth on earth as a sentinel Being, and started his life as a human being just like were all did, and the other believes he did pre-exist his life on earth as a sentential being. One set of believes separates Jesus from our exact identity ,while the other accepts Jesus as an identical human being and sees and realizes GOD'S work (IN) Humanity through the work he did (IN) the Human being Jesus our Brother and Lord. I see this as the Five wise and the five foolish shown in the parable of the ten Virgins . I am truly convinced that those who have eyes to see can see and those who don't simply can not see it brother. But hold to what you have Marty, it is right, IMO
peace and love to you and yours Marty……………………………………gene
Marty! please explain to me how you can ignore 50 Scriptures that clearly say Jesus was in Heaven with Almighty God long before the world was? For you I will now put them some down for you, and for Paladin.
Let me start with
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Notice that there are two mentioned The Word of God and God. Now in verse 14 He became flesh..Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as
of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.The last part of that verse shows us it is the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. Is the only begotten not Jesus? And He will come again as The Word of God. The next Scriptures proves that…..
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
In this verse it plainly says that He is the beginning of the creation of God….
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:Jesus is not only the firstborn of all creation, He is also the firstborn of the death, so He may be first in all, preeminence…..
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:41 ¶ The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Jhn 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Jhn 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Jhn 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Jhn 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Jhn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Jhn 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Marty how many times did Jesus say He came from heaven and how many times did He say SET ME???
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
Jesus came from Heaven where He was a Spirit Being. And He went back as a Spirit being. Paladin says He is in Heaven with flesh, bone and Spirit. Which is not according to Scripture
Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
The Kingdom of God is twofold I believe. Jesus is the King of that Kingdom, since Almighty God has given Jesus the authority to reign with His Saints for a thousand years. After all has been made subject to Him, then Jesus will give the Kingdom back to His father, so God be all in all.( I don;t how, time will tell)
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Now there are only a few Scriptures that I gave you, there are more…
Peace and Love IreneQuote (942767 @ April 24 2011,07:09) No, Mike, it is not up to me to show that he couldn't possibly pre-exist as someone else before he became a man, but if you are going to teach this doctrine of pre-existence, the burden is upon you to show that this is true.
Hi Marty,I've carried my burden. Here, let me show you:
I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN. WHAT IF YOU SEE ME ASCEND TO WHERE I WAS BEFORE? WE SAW WITH OUR OWN EYES AS JESUS ASCENDED TO HEAVEN.
HE WAS IN THE FORM OF GOD BUT EMTIED HIMSELF AND WAS MADE AS A HUMAN BEING.
HE WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING, THEN BECAME FLESH AND HAD THE GLORY OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON FROM THE FATHER.
HE IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION FOR EVERYTHING ELSE WAS CREATED THROUGH HIM AND NOT ONE THING THAT EXISTS CAME INTO EXISTENCE WITHOUT HIM.
HE IS THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
See Marty? These are just a few examples of me carrying MY burden. Now if YOU want to claim that these words teach something OTHER THAN Jesus existing in heaven before he BECAME FLESH and WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING, then it is up to YOU to show ME why these things can't possibly say what I understand them to CLEARLY say.
What you ask is ridiculous. It's like the scripture says, “THE SKY IS BLUE”. So I take that to mean the sky is blue, but for your own personal reasons, you don't WANT the sky to be blue, so you twist and ignore until you think you've come up with some other plausible thing that “THE SKY IS BLUE” really means………….AND THEN YOU ASK ME TO SHOW YOU SCRIPTURAL PROOF THAT THE SKY IS BLUE!
Well, I've already done that by listing the scripture that says the sky is blue. Now it's up to YOU to show me why the words, “THE SKY IS BLUE” can't possiblly mean that the sky is blue.
See? YOU are the one “bucking against” the clear meaning of the words. And if YOU are going to do that, the YOU need to show some scriptural reason that “THE SKY IS BLUE” doesn't really mean what it says.
Can you do that Marty? Can you show, not only some far-reaching alternate meaning, but also a scriptural reason why “The sky is blue” CAN'T POSSIBLY mean what it clearly says?
This is the difference between us: I started reading the scriptures not knowing what I would find. My mind was open to accept any teaching the scriptures had to offer. And still to this day, it wouldn't make one bit of difference to my faith whether or not Jesus pre-existed. The only reason I understand that he did is because the scriptures clearly teach he did. What other REASONABLE explanation is there for all things coming into existence through HIM (not the “thought of him in God's mind”, but HIM)?
On the other side of the coin we have you and Kerwin and Gene, who seem to “know” that we can't possibly attain to the heights that Jesus did if he was ever something different than us. And so you start, not with the open mind that I started with, but with a mind already made up that Jesus couldn't have pre-existed his human existence. And that pre-conceived personal belief you started with has caused you to claim all kinds of nonsense.
Really?…………..Jesus was incarnated as a prophecy?
Really?……………there's some “magic” in the use of the word “logos” versus “rhema” that just “explains everything away”?
Really?………………..when Jesus wanted to be returned to the glory he had before the creation of the world, he meant “the glory I had as a thought in your head”?
Really?…………….Jesus was in “the form of God” as a human, but then emptied himself of this while still a human? When?
These are just some of the unscripturally supported things you guys have been forced to claim because you started with your own “truth”, and will let no scripture divert you from that “truth”. I, on the other hand, don't have that problem. I have the serenity of being able to read the scriptures and take them for what they clearly say.
Marty, I hope you enjoy your Easter celebration. I am not mad at you, but just think it's odd that when I post a scripture that has Jesus saying “I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN”, you would ask ME to show proof that Jesus came down from heaven. I think the shoe should be on the other foot, and that YOU should show proof to ME that “I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN” means SOMETHING OTHER THAN Jesus came down from heaven.
mike
Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,07:47) Hi Mike: Relative to Jesus being the Only Begotten Son, and that he could not have been that as an angel, the following scripture has come to mind:
Quote Hebrews 1:5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,That could just as easily be read as “For unto which ONE of the angels said he…………”, because He only said that to one of them. And don't ignore the words “at any time” in that scripture.
We have a lively discussion going in the “god the angel” thread about these possibilities. Join in that thread if you would like to.
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 24 2011,09:03) One set of believes separates Jesus from our exact identity ,while the other accepts Jesus as an identical human being
See what I was saying in that long post, Marty? One cannot possibly hope to let the scriptures TEACH THEM when they have already made their mind up about certain things before hand.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,04:26) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 24 2011,09:03) One set of believes separates Jesus from our exact identity ,while the other accepts Jesus as an identical human being
See what I was saying in that long post, Marty? One cannot possibly hope to let the scriptures TEACH THEM when they have already made their mind up about certain things before hand.mike
Mike! Don't you wonder some times why that is? I mean, so many plain written Scriptures and still they deny them…
Peace and Love Irene…..Hi Irene,
I think it stems from the fact that in their minds, the only way it works is if Jesus was, as Gene often puts it, “exactly like us”. And since they “KNOW” this with their whole hearts, souls and minds, they then also “KNOW” that any scripture that seems to contradict what they've already made up their minds to believe must be because of a “misunderstanding” or a “mistranslation”.
And because their minds are already made up to believe what they want to believe, “I came down from heaven” MUST mean something else, because it couldn't possibly mean what it clearly says, for that would be a contradiction to what they've already made up their minds to believe.
That's how I see it, anyway.
peace,
mikeMike ! You are probably right. Except Paladin never said that. Even if Jesus did not exist before the world was, He was different from the beginning of His birth. I have never seen a12 year old boy go into the Temple and preach!!! Have you? He also was not conceived like a Human being. He is the literal Son of God, not made from the dust of the earth. And His body did not see decay, like all or most will…..Only those at the end time will change in an twinkle of the eye… Corinth. 15:52…..Peace Irene
Yeah Irene.
I don't know why Gene can't see that even if he didn't pre-exist, he STILL was never “exactly like us” anyway.
And you are right about Paladin, which is why I didn't include his name in my post to Marty. He has a different personal reason for Jesus not to pre-exist: He thinks for some reason that the pre-existence of Jesus supports the Trinitarians. And because he doesn't believe the trinity to be truth, he is seemingly willing to overlook our 50 scriptures, or give nonsensical alternate meanings to them, in an effort to “sock it to the trinni's”.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,06:34) Yeah Irene. I don't know why Gene can't see that even if he didn't pre-exist, he STILL was never “exactly like us” anyway.
And you are right about Paladin, which is why I didn't include his name in my post to Marty. He has a different personal reason for Jesus not to pre-exist: He thinks for some reason that the pre-existence of Jesus supports the Trinitarians. And because he doesn't believe the trinity to be truth, he is seemingly willing to overlook our 50 scriptures, or give nonsensical alternate meanings to them, in an effort to “sock it to the trinni's”.
mike
Mike! And I told Paladin that WJ our anyone believing in the trinity don't believe Jesus had a beginning. And still He thinks the Scholars somehow added something, at least that is what I understood from His long post to me. Did you read that? I do know that some punctuations was added, but not 50 Scriptures. So far I have not received an answer to my reply….. IreneQuote (Baker @ April 25 2011,03:06) Marty! please explain to me how you can ignore 50 Scriptures that clearly say Jesus was in Heaven with Almighty God long before the world was? For you I will now put them some down for you, and for Paladin.
Let me start with
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Notice that there are two mentioned The Word of God and God. Now in verse 14 He became flesh..Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as
of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.The last part of that verse shows us it is the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. Is the only begotten not Jesus? And He will come again as The Word of God. The next Scriptures proves that…..
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
In this verse it plainly says that He is the beginning of the creation of God….
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:Jesus is not only the firstborn of all creation, He is also the firstborn of the death, so He may be first in all, preeminence…..
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:41 ¶ The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Jhn 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Jhn 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Jhn 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Jhn 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Jhn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Jhn 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Marty how many times did Jesus say He came from heaven and how many times did He say SET ME???
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
Jesus came from Heaven where He was a Spirit Being. And He went back as a Spirit being. Paladin says He is in Heaven with flesh, bone and Spirit. Which is not according to Scripture
Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
The Kingdom of God is twofold I believe. Jesus is the King of that Kingdom, since Almighty God has given Jesus the authority to reign with His Saints for a thousand years. After all has been made subject to Him, then Jesus will give the Kingdom back to His father, so God be all in all.( I don;t how, time will tell)
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Now there are only a few Scriptures that I gave you, there are more…
Peace and Love Irene
Mrs:I haven't ignored the scriptures that you have quoted, but I haven't seen any that state that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his being born of the virgin Mary, but they tell me that Jesus was foreordained and did exist in the heart of God my Father, and came down from heaven in two ways. First, he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and born into this world as a man child, and secondly, God spoke to humanity through him, and formed his spirit within him through his perfect obedience to God's Word. And so, his body and soul came from heaven through his being born as a man, and his spirit came from heaven through the works of obedience to God's Word.
Please give me your understanding of the following scriptures:
Quote John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. He was in his ministry on earth and yet he was saying that he was in heaven at the same time.
John 17:21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Again, he was saying that he was in the Father, and the Father was in him.
Can you understand what I am trying to show you by this?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ April 24 2011,15:12) He was in his ministry on earth and yet he was saying that he was in heaven at the same time.
No he wasn't Marty. Many mss don't even have the last line: “Who is in heaven”. And others have “who WAS in heaven” or “who is FROM heaven”.Remember that the Greek language has an historical present tense, which many English translators render as a simple English past tense.
So your “who IS in heaven” could just as faithfully be “who WAS in heaven”. And “who WAS in heaven” is the translation that fits in with what Jesus had just said.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,06:34) Yeah Irene. I don't know why Gene can't see that even if he didn't pre-exist, he STILL was never “exactly like us” anyway.
And you are right about Paladin, which is why I didn't include his name in my post to Marty. He has a different personal reason for Jesus not to pre-exist: He thinks for some reason that the pre-existence of Jesus supports the Trinitarians. And because he doesn't believe the trinity to be truth, he is seemingly willing to overlook our 50 scriptures, or give nonsensical alternate meanings to them, in an effort to “sock it to the trinni's”.
mike
Missed it a mile Mike. I do not believe the scriptures teach a pre-existant Jesus for several scriptural reason;1) Who did he pre-exist as?
He was not God: God says he is a singular person being [Gen 17:1] and a singular being deity [Exo 3:14]; that there is no othher God bveside him [Isa 43:10]; No God after him [Isa 43:10]; No God beside him [Isa 44:6]; No God “other” [Isa 44:8].
He was not an angel: “When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the Elohim, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:” [Psa 8:3-6]
“For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.” [Heb 2:16]
And again, “I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?”[Heb 1:5]
“For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?”[Heb 1:5]
If he was God's son before the earth was created, please explain why he was “begotten this day referencing the day of his resurrection, “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee” [Psalm 2:7];
And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.” [Acts 13:28-33]
“So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
God is not a priest, nor are angels priests. God does not pray, men do. God does not shed tears, they are part of created man. How can a spirit cry? How can a spirit pray?
“And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.” [Heb 5:4-10]
How can God be a high priest? And why would God be a priest after a man's order? Or why would an angel be a priest named afterr a man's order?
So, if Jesus was not with God, beside God, before or after God, and was not “other” with God; if Jesus was not an angel, all of whom are “ministering spirits” [Heb 1:14].
Angels were all created – “Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. 2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. 3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. 4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.”[Psalm 148:1-5]
You have El Jehovah creating heaven and earth alone (monos)
“O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou (monos) alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.” [Isa 37:16 – Septuagint]“For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art (theos monos) God alone.” [Psa 86:10 Septuagint]
For a wuick look at the application of “monos” in scripture, look to Jesus' own explanation found in John 16:32 -John 16:32 “Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me monos (alone): and yet ouk eimi monos(I am not alone), because the Father is with me.
Jesus himself as a man, testified that when the father is with him, he is “ouk eimi monos” (I am not alone). So when God says he “monos” created heaven and earth, where was Jesus?
Response is usualoly given that Jesus was firstborn of all creation then created all else. (or words to that effect) The problem with tha tis, it is not what scripture teaches. Scripture teaches that the creation in which Jesus took part was called “new creation.” “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, gegonen kaina (all things are become new)” [II Cor 5:17]
Even John tells it this way – John 1:3 “All things egeneto (were made) by him; and without him was not any thing egeneto (made) that gegonen (was made).”
The original creation was made by God alone, the new became new in Christ.
All of the scriptures dealing with Jesus being forstborn of all creation, have to do with the new creation, of whom he is both firstborn and firstbegotten from the dead. The resurrected saints are a completely new kind of creature, both created and made new.
If folks would read the new testament from the front of the book, and in chronological order in which they were inspired by the Holy Spirit, they could not possibly get a pre-existent Jesus, nor a trinity for a God. Instead they begin at the back of the book (with John's gospel) and move backward to the front (James and Paul's writings.
As for your lates post to me, you say “Let us go back to my questions” but you leave out the question we would have to “go back” to. It dealt with John 6:62 –
John 6:62 What and if ye shall thewreete (see) the Son of man anabainonta [ascend] to where he was at the first?” [GNT]
And where does scripture tell us Jesus was “at the first?”
Well, it begins by telling us “that which is spiritual” was not
first “Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.”Paul tells us that wich was made a life giving spirit was not first.
So, if the Jesus who was made a life giving spirit was not first, what then was Jesus “at the first” of John 6:62?
“Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 Now that he asce
nded, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.” [Eph 4:8-10]So, Mike, if you want to go “back to” your original questions, please explain to the readers, why you left out thie crucial information, which you know was my previous response to those questions of yours you want to go back to.
Remember, the one where you wanted to assign the meaning found in the Greek “blepo” to John's question in 6:62?
You keep insisting Jesus' remark was made in the middle of explaining how he came down from heaven. The truth is, the Jews were in the middle of asking Jesus for a sign from heaven, and he gave them the sign of Jonas, “three days and three nights in the belly of the earth” recorded in Mat 12:31-42, and in John 2:18-19. This cannot be ignored.
Remember, when I showed you “Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye thewrew [see] me have.”
Why are you now abandoning John 6:62 as your proof text?
Could it be because it no longer serves to “prove” your position? Come on Mike, it should be obvious by now. John was trying to explain to those Jews how it can be said Jesus ascended up to heaven, because first he descended to the lowest parts of the earth; only then can he ascend to heaven. The Jews could not understand it because they would not; not because they could not.
“Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.” [Mat 13:13-17]Jesus had already told the Jewish crowd they would see the sign of Jonas ” Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” [Mat 12:39-40]Paul explains how he did first things first, followed by all else, in the record referenced above [Eph 4:8-10] and
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,08:36) Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,15:12) He was in his ministry on earth and yet he was saying that he was in heaven at the same time.
No he wasn't Marty. Many mss don't even have the last line: “Who is in heaven”. And others have “who WAS in heaven” or “who is FROM heaven”.Remember that the Greek language has an historical present tense, which many English translators render as a simple English past tense.
So your “who IS in heaven” could just as faithfully be “who WAS in heaven”. And “who WAS in heaven” is the translation that fits in with what Jesus had just said.
mike
Hi Mike:I'll have to look into what you say about this scripture, but how are you going to get around the other scripture that I quoted:
“I am in the Father and the Father is in me”
Love in Christ,
Marty
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