Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 12 2011,11:42)

Quote (Paladin @ April 11 2011,09:13) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 12 2011,01:13) Paladin……….Is Logos the expression of God, while Reema the force behind the words or Logos. Am i getting this right brother. peace and love…………………………………gene If I think of something, it is logos; if I write it down it is reema. Hi All, From NETNotes: logos: 1) of speech   1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea   1b) what someone has said      1b1) a word      1b2) the sayings of God      1b3) decree, mandate or order      1b4) of the moral precepts given by God      1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets      1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim rhema: 1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word   1a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning   1b) speech, discourse      1b1) what one has said   1c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one's mind made in words)      1c1) an utterance      1c2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative         1c2a) concerning some occurrence Now we all have the correct info to work from. mike

I see you know how to open a commentary mike, now try opening a bible.

My bible tells me “the logos was God” [John 1:1c] at the same time telling me “the reema is the spirit.”[Eph 6:17]

One is, the other was; God and his spirit are involved.

What does your “NetNotes” tell you about this? I did not see it in your post. (You did say “Now we all have the correct info to work from” didn't you?

[Paladin]

Quote (942767 @ April 12 2011,13:56)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 12 2011,12:02) Quote (942767 @ April 11 2011,19:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 11 2011,02:12) Hey Marty, Gene and Paladin, Is it your contention that the Word of God proceeds directly from God to each of us who accept it, and it then works at forming us into something that is closer to the image of God Himself?  Is it your contention that this Word of God, which is not a sentient being, can come into us the same way it came into Jesus? Or am I understanding you wrong? mike Hi Mike: The Word of God has come to humanity through Jesus Christ our Lord.  It is written on the pages that we call the bible. God leads us by His Holy Spirit into all truths in that which has been written, and God forms our spirit through that written Word as we learn to apply it in our daily lives. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, So before Jesus, no Word of God came to us?   Please answer the bolded question at the end of my previous post. peace, mike Hi Mike: Did I say that no Word came to us from God before God spoke to us through Jesus? But we who are born again, fulfill the law through that Word of God the spirit of Christ.  And so, I was speaking of the Word of God through which our spirit is being formed. You have already given the definition of Logos, and in John 14 the Logos became flesh, and so using that definition, please tell me what that means. In Revelation 19 the scripture states that “his name” is called the Word of God.  This speaks of his authority as the head of the church who watches over the Word that God spoke to humanity through him and that he obeyed without sin even unto death on the cross to perform it.  The scripture does not state that “he is the Word of God”. Love in Christ, Marty

Very astute observation.

And right on point.

[Paladin]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 12 2011,14:12)

Mike……….What your not understanding is and what Paladin is trying to bring out is that GOD'S LOGOS (WORDS) became REEMA in Christ Jesus , not that Jesus was the Logos OF GOD , Jesus was the REEMA of GOD , another word Jesus was the impressed writing of GOD and we also can be the same impressed writing of the Logos of GOD, buy the Logos of GOD being installed (IN) us as it was Jesus.  If i am following this right> It does make sense to me. Because it fits John saying the WORD (LOGOS) was with GOD in the beginning and WAS GOD and (IT) the LOGOS of GOD became REEMA in flesh. So when John if you do not believe Christ (the anointing) of Logos, came to be in the flesh of Jesus  You are anti Christs>  If i am following this right, there is a difference between the two word, John did not say the REEMA was with God in the beginning he said the Logos was with God  and was GOD, The Logos came to live IN the Flesh of Jesus, just as it can come to live in our flesh also.  The same LOGOS as was (IN) Jesus, and when he expounded it it became Reema. Not sure if i have it exactly right but i believe that is what Paladin is saying.  IMO peace and love……………………………………..gene

No my friend, that is not what I am saying.

There is a certain logos thing I want to show you, but do not have a picture of it, so I use reema to describe my logos.

Did you ever see a blueprint? It is a picture drawing which can include plans of how to produce a logos thing, even including working drawings of the production stages.

Consider a house concept; there will be sketches of the foundation, all parts between the foundation and the roof, all on separete sketches. There will even be elevation sketches of the property upon which the house/logos is to be constructed. All the sketches will be reema used to describe the finished product/logos.

Paul tells us that the spirit is the reema of God.
John tells us that there is a concept to be constructed in each saint, called “the logos of God.” When we read all the reema produced by paul used to describe “the logos of God,” and how it is constructed, and how it is assembled, and how it is applied, and utilized, each saint can take that reema and assemble that logos of God in their own life. The reema is the blueprint, and must be followed in precise steps, first to last, in order, if we are to attainthat “logos of God” as it was designed for us.

[Paladin]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 12 2011,16:14)

Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2011,10:08) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 12 2011,06:36) Kerwin, Also, Hebrews 4:12 says the “Word of God is living” Therefore to state that the bible is the exact word of God would be an error. So i would have to agree with mike on this one mY two cents I have seen the scripture you refer to interpreted to mean scripture. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. so scripture framed the worlds?

The reema is what the scriptures are comprised of.

Think of the reema/scriptures as verbal blueprints. Instead og a draftsmancreating a blueprint with drawings and sketches, he uses words to describe concepts and ideas.

“The worlds were framed by the reema of God”
“The worlds were framed by the blueprint of God”
“The ages were adjusted by the reema of God”
“The ages were adjusted according to God's blueprint”

All mean the same thing in this verse.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Hebrews 11:3 “Through faith we understand that the ages were *adjusted by the reema of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”

That word translated “adjusted” or “framed” is kartizw –

2675 katarti,zw katartizo {kat-ar-tid'-zo}
Meaning:  1) to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete 1a) to mend  (what has been broken or rent), to repair 1a1) to complete 1b) to fit  out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust 1b1) to fit or frame for one's  self, prepare 1c) ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make  one what he ought to be

The ages had to be adjusted when Jesus dies and the Mosaic dispensation ended, and the Christian began. It is a new age requiring adjustment.

[GeneBalthrop]

Paladin………So i had it backward, Reema is the Spirit (intellect) of things which comes or is transfered into Existence as Logos. Right?. I do believe this is important to get right brother. So please bear with me on this till i get it, i have never dealt with this before brother.

peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene

[Baker]

Quote (Paladin @ April 12 2011,21:18)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 12 2011,11:42) Quote (Paladin @ April 11 2011,09:13) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 12 2011,01:13) Paladin……….Is Logos the expression of God, while Reema the force behind the words or Logos. Am i getting this right brother. peace and love…………………………………gene If I think of something, it is logos; if I write it down it is reema. Hi All, From NETNotes: logos: 1) of speech   1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea   1b) what someone has said      1b1) a word      1b2) the sayings of God      1b3) decree, mandate or order      1b4) of the moral precepts given by God      1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets      1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim rhema: 1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word   1a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning   1b) speech, discourse      1b1) what one has said   1c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one's mind made in words)      1c1) an utterance      1c2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative         1c2a) concerning some occurrence Now we all have the correct info to work from. mike I see you know how to open a commentary mike, now try opening a bible. My bible tells me “the logos was God” [John 1:1c] at the same time telling me “the reema is the spirit.”[Eph 6:17] One is, the other was; God and his spirit are involved. What does your “NetNotes” tell you about this? I did not see it in your post. (You did say “Now we all have the correct info to work from” didn't you?

Paladin! Then what you are saying then, that the rema of God became flesh. That is not true. The Logos of God is what became flesh.
And Since we know that God Himself could never become flesh or the Spirit of God could never become flesh, it is Jesus….. That then also goes along with what it says in Rev. 19 :13-16. John makes it clear to the reader that He is talking about Jesus there….
Then He is also talking about Jesus in John 1:14…Any other way makes no sense…..
I also believe, which my Husband believes, that we really don't need to go into the Greek or the Hebrew. Gods Holy Spirit is what makes us understand the things of God. To completely depend on God, is what God wants us to do. You see all the confusion it has been around HN since you opened up another language? If I wanted to confuse you all I can do is start writing in German….. But that too would confuse others, and they in turn would have to learn German to understand what I am talking about.
Haben Sie einen guten Tag, mein Herr, Irene

[Paladin]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 13 2011,00:42)

Paladin………So i had it backward, Reema is the Spirit (intellect) of things which comes or is transfered into Existence as Logos. Right?.  I do believe this is important to get right brother. So please bear with me on this till i get it, i have never dealt with this before brother. peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene

God is the spirit. [most O.T.verses dealing with the spirit]
The spirit is reema of God. [Eph 6:17]
The logos was God. [John 1:1]
The logos became flesh.[John 1:14]

Nothing about “intellect” in my posts because that is too broad a term for what is under consideration. It can involve children, animals, porpoises, and a host of other things not covered in this thread.

[Paladin]

Quote (Baker @ April 13 2011,01:18)

[/quote] Quote (Paladin @ April 12 2011,21:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 12 2011,11:42) Quote (Paladin @ April 11 2011,09:13) Gene wrote: Paladin……….Is Logos the expression of God, while Reema the force behind the words or Logos. Am i getting this right brother. peace and love…………………………………gene If I think of something, it is logos; if I write it down it is reema. Hi All, From NETNotes: logos: 1) of speech   1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea   1b) what someone has said      1b1) a word      1b2) the sayings of God      1b3) decree, mandate or order      1b4) of the moral precepts given by God      1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets      1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim rhema: 1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word   1a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning   1b) speech, discourse      1b1) what one has said   1c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one's mind made in words)      1c1) an utterance      1c2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative         1c2a) concerning some occurrence Now we all have the correct info to work from. mike I see you know how to open a commentary mike, now try opening a bible. My bible tells me “the logos was God” [John 1:1c] at the same time telling me “the reema is the spirit.”[Eph 6:17] One is, the other was; God and his spirit are involved. What does your “NetNotes” tell you about this? I did not see it in your post. (You did say “Now we all have the correct info to work from” didn't you?

Quote

Paladin!  Then what you are saying then, that the rema of God became flesh.  That  is not true.  The Logos of God is what became flesh.

Perhaps that is why I never said that. Please indicate the source where I said any such thing.

Quote

And Since we know that God Himself could never become flesh or the Spirit of God could never become flesh, it is Jesus….. That then also goes along with what it says in Rev. 19 :13-16.  John makes it clear to the reader that He is talking about Jesus there….

John is not talking about Jesus becoming flesh, he is talking about Jesus given a name; and he tells us what that name is.

Quote

Then He is also talking about Jesus in John 1:14…Any other way makes no sense…..

What did I tell you dear sist, would be the problem with starting at the back of the book to define your terms? Of course it does not make sense, you began at the wrong end of the book.

Quote

I also believe, which my Husband believes, that we really don't need to go into the Greek or the Hebrew.  Gods Holy Spirit is what makes us understand the things of God.   To completely depend on  God, is what God wants us to do.  You see all the confusion it has been around HN since you opened up another language?  If I wanted to confuse you all I can do is start writing in German….. But that too would confuse others, and they in turn would have to learn German to understand what I am talking about.   Haben Sie einen guten Tag, mein Herr, Irene

Well dear sister, I guess if God had written his bible in ?German, we would have German lexicons and German concordances, and many many more German commentries than you have now.

And I would still be able to to study it because god's word would not have changed no matter what language is involved.
The solution for those who are confused by studying the Greek and hebrew languages is simple; stay on on the other threads. If you don't understand what is being posted, why are you constantly trying to contradict it?

The reason fro introducing the Greek into any bible discussion, is because God used simple people to write his book, and it remained a simple study until the scholars took over and tried to make it a secret only the priesthood could understand, giving them much more power over the “common” people. It has always been about a power struggle.

It has now reached the place scholars rule the church, or their students rule where they do not exist. Diod you ever hear arguments based on “the orthodox position?” That will always be about the scholars authority to say what is taught.

And the scholars themselves totally missed the necessary consequence of their own position, though it directly contradicts their “orthodox position.”

So I give you simplicity, and you cling to doctrines based upon starting from the wrong end of the book, because scholars wanted to improve on what the Holy Spirit wrote. They though they had a better way to teach and train new convertsw to Christ. Begin with the gospels, and work through the manuscripts chronologically, so that the life of Christ is first, then the growth of the church, then the communications between apostles and churches, then the last days. Satan convinced them that it is a better way.

And it has destroyed that same church Jesus laid down his life to save.

And you will still try to convinc eme it is a better way.

Save you breath dear sister. I do know what I am talking about.

[Wispring]

Hi Irene,
I am not confused. Thanks Paladin for your patient well thought out explanations of the words logos and reema. Haben sie ein gutes leben frau Irene. Logos ist eine Idee. Reema die Wörter verwendet, um auszudrücken Logos. Dies ist, was ist Paladin Lehre. Was ist über diese verwirrende?
  Irene I am not fluent in German. I am not fluent in Greek. I can use words from languages other than english to express myself. If I have an idea(logos) in any language. I will need words(reema) of any given language to communicate  the idea(logos). This is all Paladin is sharing with us. The language of a housebuilder in Paladin's example are blueprints. The language of a musician is musical notation and is nearly universal. I can sit in a room with a german-speaking person who knows only a little english, however, if we both know how to read musical notation we can communicate the music(logos) quite well together. Haben Sie jetzt Verständ(Do you now understand)? Verwirrung ist nicht das Ziel(confusion is not the goal). Klarheit ist das Ziel(clarity is the goal).

                                                        With Love and Respect,
                                                                   Wispring

[942767]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 12 2011,14:16)

Quote (942767 @ April 12 2011,08:05) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 12 2011,12:12) Hi Numbers, Marty, Than again the Scriptures literally state that the word was “made flesh” That now we KNOW HIM, and he dwelled amoung men. This is talking about an individual and not a situation where the word of God came to men. God talks about knowing him, not by what is exactly written. Jesus said they search the scriptures for eternal life, yet the scriptuers speak of HIM. Hi SF: Of course this is speaking of Jesus, but the Logos became flesh.  The coming of the Messiah had been prophesied throughout the Old Testament beginning with Genesis 3:15. Love in Christ, Marty So numbers, what is your arguement exactly?

Jesus not the Logos of God. The Word of God or Logos of God originated with Him. Jesus is the basis for all of creation. Hebrews 1-3 states:

Quote

Hebrews 1 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

And so, when John 1 states: In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God, and then it states: The same was in the beginning with God.

What is being done when the scripture states: “All things were made by him and for him, and without him was nothing made that was made”, is that we are assuming that the scriptures are stating that he is the Logos of God. He is not. But again, He is the basis for the whole of creation. And he has obeyed the Word of God even unto death on the cross and now in his exalted state watches over the Logos of God to perform it.

And so, he is not God or the Logos of God, but is who the scripture states that he is, and that is that “He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.”

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Paladin]

Quote (Wispring @ April 13 2011,05:56)

Hi Irene, I am not confused. Thanks Paladin for your patient well thought out explanations of the words logos and reema. Haben sie ein gutes leben frau Irene. Logos ist eine Idee. Reema die Wörter verwendet, um auszudrücken Logos. Dies ist, was ist Paladin Lehre. Was ist über diese verwirrende?   Irene I am not fluent in German. I am not fluent in Greek. I can use words from languages other than english to express myself. If I have an idea(logos) in any language. I will need words(reema) of any given language to communicate  the idea(logos). This is all Paladin is sharing with us. The language of a housebuilder in Paladin's example are blueprints. The language of a musician is musical notation and is nearly universal. I can sit in a room with a german-speaking person who knows only a little english, however, if we both know how to read musical notation we can communicate the music(logos) quite well together. Haben Sie jetzt Verständ(Do you now understand)? Verwirrung ist nicht das Ziel(confusion is not the goal). Klarheit ist das Ziel(clarity is the goal).                                                         With Love and Respect,                                                                    Wispring

I like your reference to music as a language, my friend. I have a language I am fluent in, and that is geometry. I have squared the circle, trisected the angel, and doubled the volume of the cube, and in so doing, discovered what I have named “bound infinity.” it opens completely new doors into defining limitations heretofore tied to “the establishment” who really do not have a clue as to the realities of mathematics.

Glad to see someone can understand my use of reema and logos, as demonstrated in scripture.

[Paladin]

Quote (942767 @ April 13 2011,08:03)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 12 2011,14:16) Quote (942767 @ April 12 2011,08:05) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 12 2011,12:12) Hi Numbers, Marty, Than again the Scriptures literally state that the word was “made flesh” That now we KNOW HIM, and he dwelled amoung men. This is talking about an individual and not a situation where the word of God came to men. God talks about knowing him, not by what is exactly written. Jesus said they search the scriptures for eternal life, yet the scriptuers speak of HIM. Hi SF: Of course this is speaking of Jesus, but the Logos became flesh.  The coming of the Messiah had been prophesied throughout the Old Testament beginning with Genesis 3:15. Love in Christ, Marty So numbers, what is your arguement exactly? Jesus not the Logos of God.  The Word of God or Logos of God originated with Him.  Jesus is the basis for all of creation.  Hebrews 1-3 states: Quote Hebrews 1 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; And so, when John 1 states: In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God, and then it states: The same was in the beginning with God. What is being done when the scripture states: “All things were made by him and for him, and without him was nothing made that was made”, is that we are assuming that the scriptures are stating that he is the Logos of God.  He is not.  But again, He is the basis for the whole of creation. And he has obeyed the Word of God even unto death on the cross and now in his exalted state watches over the Logos of God to perform it. And so, he is not God or the Logos of God, but is who the scripture states that he is, and that is that “He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.” Love in Christ, Marty

Very Good!

Now, if we can get the meaning of John's “Beginning” defined in scripture I'll be almost happy. It still leaves me with having to show why “incarnation” is a figment of religious philosophy rather than theology.

[942767]

Quote (Paladin @ April 13 2011,09:03)

Quote (942767 @ April 13 2011,08:03) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 12 2011,14:16) Quote (942767 @ April 12 2011,08:05) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 12 2011,12:12) Hi Numbers, Marty, Than again the Scriptures literally state that the word was “made flesh” That now we KNOW HIM, and he dwelled amoung men. This is talking about an individual and not a situation where the word of God came to men. God talks about knowing him, not by what is exactly written. Jesus said they search the scriptures for eternal life, yet the scriptuers speak of HIM. Hi SF: Of course this is speaking of Jesus, but the Logos became flesh.  The coming of the Messiah had been prophesied throughout the Old Testament beginning with Genesis 3:15. Love in Christ, Marty So numbers, what is your arguement exactly? Jesus not the Logos of God.  The Word of God or Logos of God originated with Him.  Jesus is the basis for all of creation.  Hebrews 1-3 states: Quote Hebrews 1 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; And so, when John 1 states: In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God, and then it states: The same was in the beginning with God. What is being done when the scripture states: “All things were made by him and for him, and without him was nothing made that was made”, is that we are assuming that the scriptures are stating that he is the Logos of God.  He is not.  But again, He is the basis for the whole of creation. And he has obeyed the Word of God even unto death on the cross and now in his exalted state watches over the Logos of God to perform it. And so, he is not God or the Logos of God, but is who the scripture states that he is, and that is that “He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.” Love in Christ, Marty Very Good! Now, if we can get the meaning of John's “Beginning” defined in scripture I'll be almost happy. It still leaves me with having to show why “incarnation” is a figment of  religious philosophy rather than theology.

Hi Paladin:

In the beginning?

Quote

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Quote

Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Quote

2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty. 2Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Does this help?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Hi All,

My understanding:

I believe that Jesus was brought forth as God’s Only Begotten and Firstborn Son in the beginning, before anything else existed; and that all other things, including the heavens and the earth, all things that exist in them, and all of the ages, came into existence through him. (Proverbs 8:22:31, 30:4, Micah 5:2, John 1:3, 10, 11; 1 Corinthians 8:6, Colossians 1:15-17, Hebrews 1:1-2, 6; 1 John 2:12-13, Jude 1:25, Revelation 3:14)

I believe Jesus is both the Root and the Branch of David (Isaiah 11:1, 11:10, Revelation 22:16), and that Jesus was the offspring of David only “according to the flesh”. (Matthew 22:41-46, Romans 1:3, 8:3, 9:5, Galatians 4:4, 1 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 2:14, 10:5)

I believe that among Jesus’ many names and titles, he is called “the Word of God” because he is the main spokesman for his God. (Revelation 19:13)

I believe that Jesus, the Word of God, was existing in the form of God as a powerful spirit being in heaven, but was then sent by his God to the earth to fulfill a few very specific purposes.  He emptied himself of his spirit nature, became flesh by being made in the likeness of a human being, and dwelled among us, having the glory of an only begotten Son from the Father.  (John 1:1, 14, 3:16-17, Philippians 2:6-7, 1 John 4:9)

I believe that all the mentions of the PERSON Jesus Christ (not some “activity” known as “Christ living in you”) coming FROM heaven or God INTO the world are overwhelming evidence to the pre-existence of God’s only begotten Son. (John1:9, 3:13, 17, 19, 31; 6:32-33, 35, 38, 41-42, 46, 48-51, 62; 8:23, 42; 16:28, 17:5, 1 Corinthians 15:47, Hebrews 10:5, 1 John 4:9)

That is how I understand the scriptures concerning the pre-existence of Jesus.  Some of you want to take these very straight forward scriptures and imagine them to say all sorts of weird, abstract and nonsensical things.  For example, I’ve heard all kinds of fantasies about what “was made in the likeness of a human being” or “became flesh” or “came down from heaven” really means.  And I’ve heard the fantasy that only the “new age” was created through Jesus, when Heb 1:2 clearly says “ages”, Col 1:16 mentions “all things, whether in heaven or on earth”, and John 1:3 says “not one thing came into existence without him”.

So what I want from Paladin, Gene, Marty and Wispring is for you guys to SCRIPTURALLY show me how my understanding cannot possibly be the correct one.  I’m not asking for any more of your odd, alternate understandings of what the scriptures I’ve listed could mean.  I’m asking for clear scriptural evidence that my understanding cannot possibly be what the scriptures teach.

Peace,
mike

(For easier access to all of the the scriptures I've listed and more, Click Here to see the pre-existent scripture database that Irene, Wm, Pierre, t8 and I have been putting together for a while now. I only suggest it because all of the scriptures I listed are right there for easy access.)

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2011,20:45)

Hi All, My understanding: I believe that Jesus was brought forth as God’s Only Begotten and Firstborn Son in the beginning, before anything else existed; and that all other things, including the heavens and the earth, all things that exist in them, and all of the ages, came into existence through him. (Proverbs 8:22:31, 30:4, Micah 5:2, John 1:3, 10, 11; 1 Corinthians 8:6, Colossians 1:15-17, Hebrews 1:1-2, 6; 1 John 2:12-13, Jude 1:25, Revelation 3:14) I believe Jesus is both the Root and the Branch of David (Isaiah 11:1, 11:10, Revelation 22:16), and that Jesus was the offspring of David only “according to the flesh”. (Matthew 22:41-46, Romans 1:3, 8:3, 9:5, Galatians 4:4, 1 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 2:14, 10:5) I believe that among Jesus’ many names and titles, he is called “the Word of God” because he is the main spokesman for his God. (Revelation 19:13) I believe that Jesus, the Word of God, was existing in the form of God as a powerful spirit being in heaven, but was then sent by his God to the earth to fulfill a few very specific purposes.  He emptied himself of his spirit nature, became flesh by being made in the likeness of a human being, and dwelled among us, having the glory of an only begotten Son from the Father.  (John 1:1, 14, 3:16-17, Philippians 2:6-7, 1 John 4:9) I believe that all the mentions of the PERSON Jesus Christ (not some “activity” known as “Christ living in you”) coming FROM heaven or God INTO the world are overwhelming evidence to the pre-existence of God’s only begotten Son. (John1:9, 3:13, 17, 19, 31; 6:32-33, 35, 38, 41-42, 46, 48-51, 62; 8:23, 42; 16:28, 17:5, 1 Corinthians 15:47, Hebrews 10:5, 1 John 4:9) That is how I understand the scriptures concerning the pre-existence of Jesus.  Some of you want to take these very straight forward scriptures and imagine them to say all sorts of weird, abstract and nonsensical things.  For example, I’ve heard all kinds of fantasies about what “was made in the likeness of a human being” or “became flesh” or “came down from heaven” really means.  And I’ve heard the fantasy that only the “new age” was created through Jesus, when Heb 1:2 clearly says “ages”, Col 1:16 mentions “all things, whether in heaven or on earth”, and John 1:3 says “not one thing came into existence without him”. So what I want from Paladin, Gene, Marty and Wispring is for you guys to SCRIPTURALLY show me how my understanding cannot possibly be the correct one.  I’m not asking for any more of your odd, alternate understandings of what the scriptures I’ve listed could mean.  I’m asking for clear scriptural evidence that my understanding cannot possibly be what the scriptures teach. Peace, mike (For easier access to all of the the scriptures I've listed and more, Click Here to see the pre-existent scripture database that Irene, Wm, Pierre, t8 and I have been putting together for a while now.  I only suggest it because all of the scriptures I listed are right there for easy access.)

Mike

I also would like to see this;for what i have seen so far there explanation only stands if you give a human explanation to the part of scriptures who do not fit there view,

for there explanation will also affect other views about Gods word who contradict the spiritual view of Christ ,

well let see ,

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Pierre,

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2011,13:45)

Hi All, My understanding: I believe that Jesus was brought forth as God’s Only Begotten and Firstborn Son in the beginning, before anything else existed; and that all other things, including the heavens and the earth, all things that exist in them, and all of the ages, came into existence through him. (Proverbs 8:22:31, 30:4, Micah 5:2, John 1:3, 10, 11; 1 Corinthians 8:6, Colossians 1:15-17, Hebrews 1:1-2, 6; 1 John 2:12-13, Jude 1:25, Revelation 3:14) I believe Jesus is both the Root and the Branch of David (Isaiah 11:1, 11:10, Revelation 22:16), and that Jesus was the offspring of David only “according to the flesh”. (Matthew 22:41-46, Romans 1:3, 8:3, 9:5, Galatians 4:4, 1 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 2:14, 10:5) I believe that among Jesus’ many names and titles, he is called “the Word of God” because he is the main spokesman for his God. (Revelation 19:13) I believe that Jesus, the Word of God, was existing in the form of God as a powerful spirit being in heaven, but was then sent by his God to the earth to fulfill a few very specific purposes.  He emptied himself of his spirit nature, became flesh by being made in the likeness of a human being, and dwelled among us, having the glory of an only begotten Son from the Father.  (John 1:1, 14, 3:16-17, Philippians 2:6-7, 1 John 4:9) I believe that all the mentions of the PERSON Jesus Christ (not some “activity” known as “Christ living in you”) coming FROM heaven or God INTO the world are overwhelming evidence to the pre-existence of God’s only begotten Son. (John1:9, 3:13, 17, 19, 31; 6:32-33, 35, 38, 41-42, 46, 48-51, 62; 8:23, 42; 16:28, 17:5, 1 Corinthians 15:47, Hebrews 10:5, 1 John 4:9) That is how I understand the scriptures concerning the pre-existence of Jesus.  Some of you want to take these very straight forward scriptures and imagine them to say all sorts of weird, abstract and nonsensical things.  For example, I’ve heard all kinds of fantasies about what “was made in the likeness of a human being” or “became flesh” or “came down from heaven” really means.  And I’ve heard the fantasy that only the “new age” was created through Jesus, when Heb 1:2 clearly says “ages”, Col 1:16 mentions “all things, whether in heaven or on earth”, and John 1:3 says “not one thing came into existence without him”. So what I want from Paladin, Gene, Marty and Wispring is for you guys to SCRIPTURALLY show me how my understanding cannot possibly be the correct one.  I’m not asking for any more of your odd, alternate understandings of what the scriptures I’ve listed could mean.  I’m asking for clear scriptural evidence that my understanding cannot possibly be what the scriptures teach. Peace, mike (For easier access to all of the the scriptures I've listed and more, Click Here to see the pre-existent scripture database that Irene, Wm, Pierre, t8 and I have been putting together for a while now.  I only suggest it because all of the scriptures I listed are right there for easy access.)

It is a waste of time trying to replace ignorance with knowledge when you still begin at the back of the book for your defining referents. John does not define “The logos of God” but most of your post relies completerly upon John being the author of that logos. He is not.

Until you learn that the chronological arrangement of how you read scriptures changes completely your evaluation and understanding, it is a complete breakdown in communication for one position to try to convince the other position of the rightness of either position.

I will not devote anymore time to such a contest, but will instead, focus on the theme of the OP. A good part of that theme is developing a better understanding of Paul's “Logos of God” of which he is the original new testament author, inspired by the Holy spirit, and developed by the experience of seeing it in action.

I am working on showing why John 1:14 is not about Jesus, and when it is done, I will consider another thread involved with examining any claim you want to promote, but not on this thread.

Let me know if you have any interest in this.

[GeneBalthrop]

Paladin…………….I am interested as i do not believe Jesus preexisted his berth on earth as any kind of Sentinel Being and this false teaching has perverted the true Gospel of GOD and his intervention and involvement in human beings, it is a teaching that separates Jesus from our Exact identity. This belief is in my opinion is the Spirit of Antichrist that has infected nearly all Christendom. IMO

peace and love……………………………gene

[Baker]

Paladin!  In John 1:14 The Word of God became flesh….What I want to Zero in at is the whole Scripture

Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.  

We beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of th Father, full of grace and truth.  

Look it does not matter where you start reading the Book.  At the beginning, is the beginning.  not only that you know we have other Scriptures that show Jesus was the firstborn of all creation.  Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14  You say that is the New creation, that is not true. The New creation is written in verse 18.  So Jesus may have preeminence.  He bis firstborn of all creation, and firstborn from the dead, the Head of the Church.  Our King, and Lord an Savior…..

Peace and Love Irene
.

[Wispring]

Hi Mike,
  Firstly, love you like a brother. I discern the spirit of your post as one of alienation and separation. I didn't come to this web-site to do what you want, nor to accept your understanding as the only correct one. I do not accept Paladin's understanding as the only correct one. When I teach my guitar students how to play the guitar, I am not really teaching them how to play guitar. I am teaching them how to teach themselves. I do teach them of the logical structure of music and it's language. I give guidance from a musicians perspective. I do not tell my students my way is the only correct one, I state plainly that it is not. I act as a revelator to them in a way of speaking. I tell them that the music they want to express is already in their heart and I am just there to help them coax it out. I even teach them that the commonly accepted correct way may not be the right way for them as individuals. This you might think of as only secular reasoning, however, there is the spirit of the music, there is the soul one puts into the music. I came to this web-site to have scripture revealed to me by God, not to debate various doctrines via sciptural proofs in a scientific methodology of logical debate. Christ taught me his church is a church of revelation. I do not discern alot of compassion or love in your post. I discern a debater strongly desiring to persuade that his understanding is the correct one. I discern you characterizing your understanding as straight-forward and those who do not agree with your understanding as wierd, abstract, nonsensical, fantasy. This does not warm the heart or soften the heart to receiving God's word via revelation by God. In fact, it expressed your opinion of those who are not in full agreement with your understanding. That's OK Mike. God loves both you and your readers just the same. I have no desire at this time, nor have I been directed by God to debate with you about the pre-existance of Jesus. Actually to my understanding the whole reason for Christ Jesus coming in to the world and doing the things he did was for the salvation and reconciliation of all people to God. This to me is the central theme of things. This theme works, is valid, is justified whether Jesus pre-existed or not. This is Paladin's thread he is developing it in a non-confrontational manner. He defends his position well using scripture. That you view his reasoning as nonsensical is your opinion. You are entitle to that right, at least here in America you are. I may be wrong, but, one of the reasons for this site is so that people can express there freedom in christ from their own life's experiences. This is what Paladin is doing. You don't have to agree with all his expressions, it would be good if you respected them. I don't agree with all things you say Mike, I still respect you. I don't agree with all things Paladin says, I still respect him. My central message to you Mike is to learn how to respectfully disagree. You have a tendency to demean the character of those who are not in complete agreement with your understanding of things biblical. If you do comprehend this aspect of your personality, I ask you to simply read your own posts in or out of debates and pretend like it is not you posting them. This thread is not in the debate section. True there may be aspects of debate in it, that is the nature of human discourse. It is not, however, a full-blown, all-out debate. This is probably why Paladin put it here instead of the debate section. I do not know this for certain, it is just a reasonable presumption on my part.

                                    With Love and Respect,
                                         Wispring

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