Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

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April 5, 2011 at 1:46 am#242078

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Paladin @ April 04 2011,06:55)

I have already made my “point” that you did not do what you claimed you did. You said you had my permission to do what you posted, but my permission was for the two posts in the reference, which you first edited, and then called into question with your “seemed” remark.

You have indeed “explained” your position, and I have not chided your effort, only corrected the mistakes and moved on.

You are not going to make it go away, Mike, so you might as well quit trying to change what was for what you wish it was.

Now, we can either move on, or dwell on past efforts. My personal choice is “move on.”

Paladin, you are really starting to irritate me now. Let's settle this once and for all. Here is the chain of events:

1. YOU PM'D ME WITH A RESPONSE TO ONE OF MY PUBLIC POSTS, SAYING YOU DIDN'T WANT TO “SHOW ME UP” IN PUBLIC.

2. I RESPONDED TO YOUR RESPONSE TO MY PUBLIC POST VIA PM, AND ADDED THAT YOU DIDN'T NEED TO SPARE MY FEELINGS BY SENDING YOUR POST PRIVATELY.

3. YOU PM'D ME A SECOND TIME TELLING ME TO JUST POST BOTH PM'S ON THE PUBLIC THREAD THEN.

4. I RESPONDED A SECOND TIME TELLING YOU, “NO, I'LL JUST WAIT UNTIL YOU ANSWER IT IN THE PUBLIC THREAD, AND THEN I'LL RESPOND TO YOUR POST IN THE PUBLIC THREAD.”

5. THEN YOU DID RESPOND TO MY POST IN THE PUBLIC THREAD.

6. THEN I POSTED MY RESPONSE TO YOUR RESPONSE. TO DO SO, I COPIED AND PASTED MY RESPONSE FROM THE PM, BECAUSE WHAT YOU POSTED ON THE PUBLIC THREAD WAS EXACTLY THE SAME AS YOU SENT TO ME IN THE PM. SO I HAD A “READY-MADE” ANSWER TO YOUR POST JUST SITTING THERE IN MY INBOX. BUT AFTER POSTING IT ON THE PUBLIC FORUM, I NOTICED IT INCLUDED THE PERSONAL WORDS I SPOKE TO YOU ABOUT NOT NEEDING TO SPARE MY FEELINGS AND SUCH. THOSE COMMENTS WOULDN'T HAVE MADE SENSE TO SOMEONE JUST READING MY RESPONSE AND NOT KNOWING ABOUT THE PM'S. SO I HAD A CHOICE OF PROOF-READING MY WHOLE RESPONSE AND DELETING THE PM REFERENCES THAT NO ONE ON THE PUBLIC THREAD WOULD UNDERSTAND, OR JUST ADDING A PROLOGUE EXPLAINING BREIFLY ABOUT THE PM'S, SO THEY WOULD UNDERSTAND WHY THE EXTRA PERSONAL WORDS TO YOU WERE THERE. I CHOSE THE LATTER. AND THAT'S REALLY THE END OF IT.

SO PALADIN, I NEVER COPIED OR EDITED YOUR PM IN THE FIRST PLACE. I NEVER USED YOUR PM FOR ANYTHING. I ANSWERED YOUR PUBLIC POST WITH A COPY OF MY PM TO YOU…………..ALONG WITH A PROLOGUE TO EXPLAIN THE EXTRA WORDS THAT WOULD HAVE SEEMED OUT OF PLACE.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS? I DIDN'T POST ONE SINGLE WORD FROM YOUR PM TO ME ON THIS THREAD. THE POST I ANSWERED WITH MY PM IS THE POST YOU YOURSELF POSTED ON THIS THREAD.

I DIDN'T EVEN USE YOU PM, LET ALONE EDIT IT. YOU ARE MISTAKEN, AND SEEM TO BE ACCUSING ME OF SOME WRONGDOING OR SLEIGHT OF HAND. AND I AM TAKING SERIOUS OFFENSE TO IT.

NOW, IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'VE JUST WRITTEN, THEN FOLLOW YOU OWN PERSONAL CHOICE AND “MOVE ON”.

mike

April 5, 2011 at 2:01 am#242081

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Paladin @ April 04 2011,07:55)

Quote (Wispring @ April 04 2011,22:13)

I have done a search of scripture and have not yet found any verbiage that specifically states “God is the Holy Spirit.

El Jehovah is called “God the Lord” in teh Hbrew – Isaiah 42:5 “Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:” [“El Jehovah”]

And in the Greek ” 1 Chr 13:6 “And David went up, and all Israel, to Baalah, that is, to Kirjathjearim, which belonged to Judah, to bring up thence the ark of God the LORD, that dwelleth between the cherubims, whose name is called on it.” [tou theou kuriou]

And in the new testament: “Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” [II Cor 3:17]

Are you answering the right post, Paladin?

Just so you know, “God the LORD” in your OT scriptures is really “Elohim YHWH”.

And the “Lord” in your NT scripture refers to Jesus, not YHWH.

And none of your scriptures say “God is the Holy Spirit”, which is the point you were supposedly responding to.

Maybe I'm just confused?

mike

April 5, 2011 at 4:26 am#242102

Wispring

Participant

Hi Pierre,

Quote

but you did not answer the question why God spirit is talk about before ADAMS SIN as just the spirit of God.

I do not know why. All I could do is come up with ideas as to why based on scripture. Perhaps there was no need for the word holy until after Adam ate from the Tree of good and evil. If you have an idea that will deliver more of the truth about God, please, go ahead and share. My thinking is God was as holy at that point in time as he is now as he will ever be.

Quote

so you are playing with words ,Paul and Peter explain this clearly.

the kingdom of God is in you ?

I don't understand what your are expressing here Pierre.

Quote

Lk 18:17 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

just read the last verse ,and pickup some understanding.

if you know why Jesus say those words please share them with us all.

Yes it would be an honor. The reason why is that a person has to accept Jesus teachings about himself, about God, about the kingdom of God with the mind of a child. That is fully, completely, without question or doubt.

Quote

as for limiting God i do not understand how i did this please explain more.

I think I misunderstood you. You obviously put no limit on the things God can do.

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this coment is so catholic It make me smile

This I truly don't understand. What emotion where your feeling when you smiled? Maybe that will help me to understand better.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

April 5, 2011 at 10:18 am#242114

Paladin

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2011,12:48)

Paladin,April wrote:

for………oti = subordinating conjunction
thou……..sou = genitive masculine singular personal pronoun
extolled….emegalunas indicative aorist active verb
above…….epi = accusative preposition
all………pan = neuter singular accusative indefinite adjective
name……..onoma accusative neuter singular noun = name
the………to = accusative neuter singular definite article
word……..logion = accusative neuter singular noun = “word”
of you……sou = genitive masculine singular personal pronoun

The use of the genitive (possessive) “sou” makes it “for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.”

(M)

Quote

Okay, NOW we're getting somewhere.

1. Look at your Greek words. Scroll down to the word “pan”. Now honestly tell me if “pan” can also refer to “EVERY NAME” or “EACH NAME”.

Depending upon what “every name” and “each name” is a reference to. The difference, my friend, is whether “pan” is followed by possessive pronoun, or something else. The possessive “sou” is limiting “onoma” to “onoma of you.”

(M)

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2. Show me the genitive word “sou” that follows the word “onoma”, making it refer to “name OF YOU”.

Look right above, you will see it in the post.

(M)

Quote

3. Explain to me what “above all thy name” even means.

It is a reference to the totallity of the name/names of God. He has many names, and is making it clear that he is not placing his word just above one of his names, nor yet two or three of his names, but above all/every name/names he has.

Look at the many names God tells us of.

[Psa 95:3] For Jehovah is a great El, and a great King above all Eloheem.

There is no competition for first place in this hierarchy: [Isa 40:25] To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One. [46:5] To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

None of the sons of El can be likened to this king Jehovah: [Psalm 89:6] For who in the heaven can be compared unto Jehovah? who among the sons of the El'm can be likened unto the LORD?

This El named Jehovah, who is king over the Eloheem, is also an Eloheem, who is greater than all the Eloheem: [Exo 18:11] Now I know that Jehovah is greater than all Eloheem… [2 Chron 2:5] …for great is our Eloheem above all Eloheem.

Then there are the Adown, a class of Lords among the hierarchy, of whom their chief is named Adonai, and Jehovah: [Psa 135:5] For I know that Jehovah is great, and that our Adown is above all Eloheem. [Psa 86:8] Among the Eloheem there is none like unto thee, O Adonai… [Isa 10:16] Therefore shall the Adown, Adonai of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.

God introduced himself to his creature, man, by the name El, which name was replaced with Jehovah, upon the occasion of the Exodus from Egypt. [Exo 6:2] And Eloheem spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am Jehovah: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of El Shaddai, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Jehovah is called Shaddai El in [Gen 17:1][Ezra 10:5]; Gadowl El, in [Deu 7:21] and gibbowr El in [Jer 32:18].

God left no doubt as to who is in control: [Deut 10:17] For Jehovah your Eloheem is Eloheem of Eloheem, and Adown of Adown'm, a great El, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

The Eloheem Jehovah stood in the congregation of the El, and judged among the Eloheem [Psa 82:1] Eloheem standeth in the congregation of the El; he judgeth among the Eloheem.

The El named Adonai, and Jehovah, begat a son who, being a son of El, was a form of El (Phil 2:9) and was to be called “with us El.” [Isa 7:14] Therefore Adonai himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (Immanu El = With us God)

There is a passage in Isaiah which references the remnant of Israel coming back to the Messiah. “The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the gibbowr El.” [Isa 10:21]

Isaiah prophesied as to the names Messiah is to be given after he is raised above averything in the universe; the fulfillment of which is found in [Eph 1:21] Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And [Phil 2:9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Jesus, according to Isaiah, was to be called “The gibbowr (mighty) El.” [Isa 9:6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called wonderful, Counseller, The mighty El, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this.

It should be no surprise to Christians to see Jesus, resurrected from the dead, raised above all power and dominion, and given names which are above all names, for it was thus prophesied; “Behold my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.” [Isa 52:13]

And Paul says all this was fulfilled in [Eph 1:20-22][Phil 2:9].

EXAMPLE: ADOWN
Psalm 110:1 JEHOVAH said unto ADOWN, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

EXAMPLE: ELOHEEM
Psalm 45:6 Thy throne, O ELOHEEM, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

EXAMPLE: EL
Isa 7:14 Therefore ADONAY himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (WITH US EL)

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and
the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty EL, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

(M)

Quote 4. Explain to me why the KJV translation is virtually ALONE in it's translation of this Psalm, compared to these others:

NET ©
for you have exalted your promise above the entire sky.

“Sky” [ouranos] is missing in the Greek. The translators need to replace “thy name” with anything they can manufacture, so when they found a Hebrew word meaning “tower” or “high,” then “roof top” and “most high” and these translators are trying to make “most high” mean “sky.”

The problem with that stupidity is, even earth's kings are called “exellency most high” but no one thinks they are king of the sky. It is a silly attempt to make a foreign word sound like something it is not.

(M)

Quote

NIV ©
for you have exalted above all things your name and your word.

This is an attempt to equalize things that have been put on different levels. God's name and God's word had no need to be exalted above all things, because they were already above all things. Now God makes a change, by placing his word above all of his name.

(M)

Quote

NASB ©
For You have magnified Your word according to all Your name.

Different Greek wordform (panta)[Gen 6:22].

(M)

Quote

NRSV ©
for you have exalted your name and your word above everything.

See response to NIV

(M)

5. Show me how the Hebrew words, “magnify above all name word” makes you so positive it's saying that God will magnify His word above His own name.

If I do, will you play nice?

See response to NIV

(M)

6. Explain to me how ANYTHING in existence can possibly be OVER the Name of YHWH.

Because God is soveriegn in all of what is. He can set up and He can put down; He can raise his word above His name and He can give His word as a name above every name, if that is His desire and His plan. Are you saying He cannot?

April 5, 2011 at 12:18 pm#242124

Wispring

Participant

Hi Paladin,

Just to interject an earthy human observation here. There have been and there are many men who put their word above their name. Keepings one's word in considered very honorable in many cultures throughout history. Breaking one's word is considered very character diminishing.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

April 5, 2011 at 12:24 pm#242126

Paladin

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 05 2011,12:46)