Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[Baker]

Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 22 2011,07:12)

Hi Paladin,   I have read this entire thread 2 times and am SLOWLY reading it a third time. Please tell me if I am understanding what you are presenting correctly. In summation, that via the spirit of prophesy Jesus Christ was incarnated in Eve first, then personified in Abraham, then manifested via Mary. The scripture that prompted me to have the “pieces fall together” like this is: Quote Revelation 19:10 (King James Version) 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.   The “light came on” for me and I thought “Paladin is explaining things from the perspective of prophesy being fulfilled!”. The scripture that is boldened in the quote was my catalyst.                            With Love and Respect,                                    Wispring

whispering! The prophecy of Jesus has nothing to do with that Jesus preexisted His birth on earth. Incarnation means that He came in the flesh. Those like myself don 't doubt that at all. We know that Jesus came to be our ransom. But that has nothing to do that Jesus existed as a Spirit Being before then. Scriptures say so. To deny that is to deny Scriptures. Even Jesus Himself said so… Why would anyone ever deny that??
Tell me where is Jesus today?

You gave Rev. 19:10 but did not continue on which will show you that The Word of God(title) is who?

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

That is a prophecy that Jesus will come again to strike the nations. Unless you have another being that fits that description, then tell me…..I don't know of anyone that does…

John wrote Rev. when He was exiled to the Island of Petmos, which was after Jesus resurrection and Accention to Heaven. It is not a prophecy that Jesus became a man…..

Peace and Love Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Wispring………..Don't be pulled of track by some Here IMO , Jesus was Prophesied  to come into existence at a certain time , He was not a Sentinel Being of any kind until he was Born into existence by Mary, even though He was as good as alive because of GOD'S WORDS before he ever truly existed. Even Jesus when describing Himself used all the Prophets to prove His existence was to come, not that He already existed. Paladin has rightly presented it, don't get caught up in what those who are ignorant of this truth are saying.

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 21 2011,16:24)

How is that reward not real? I haven't tasted its fruit, nor smelled its flavour, nor yet counted its facets; but it is so real to me that I can cringe at the thought of losing it; yet it is not in my hands till after that judgement that also exists only in prophecy.

Hi Paladin,

You own words say it all.  You can “taste it”, but it is NOT YET IN YOUR HANDS.

We could “taste” Jesus' coming, but he was NOT YET IN OUR HANDS.

Your reward won't REALLY exist for you until, in your own words, “after that judgement”.  Likewise, Jesus didn't REALLY exist as a man until “after he was born of Mary”. And Cyrus didn't REALLY exist until he was born.

mike

[Wispring]

Hi Irene,

May God's peace be upon you. In answer to your question the verses posted by you to my mind describe Jesus. Just so you know you could have just posted “Rev 19:10-16”. I have a tab on my browser open to http://www.biblegateway.com and bible.org nearly all the time. On-line I generaly use the KJV and the Young's Literal Translation.I also own physical NIV and KJV version within 10 feet of me. Just so you know. If you feel the need to post long passages please contininue to do so. Jesus today is in the Kingdom of God to the best of my knowledge and understanding.
By the way, this threads focus is “Examination of the 'incarnation' doctrine”. Pre-existance is another thread. As a service to readers I like to keep my discussions germain to the threads focus the best I can.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

[Baker]

Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 22 2011,14:32)

Hi Irene, May God's peace be upon you. In answer to your question the verses posted by you to my mind describe Jesus. Just so you know you could have just posted “Rev 19:10-16”. I have a tab on my browser open to http://www.biblegateway.com and bible.org nearly all the time. On-line I generaly use the KJV and the Young's Literal Translation.I also own physical NIV and KJV version within 10 feet of me. Just so you know. If you feel the need to post long passages please contininue to do so. Jesus today is in the Kingdom of God to the best of my knowledge and understanding.   By the way, this threads focus is “Examination of the 'incarnation' doctrine”. Pre-existance is another thread. As a service to readers I like to keep my discussions germain to the threads focus the best I can.                                               With Love and Respect,                                                       Wispring

Wispring! Thank you for your reply, and peace to you too. I use the blue letter Bible of KJ on line. We also have a German Bible, a Rye Study Bible of KJ, a James Moffat, a KJV and a NIV. I use my King James and the blue letter Bible the most. As far as incarnation is concerned and this tread, we were also discussing the preexisting with Paladin and Mike. It is because of the incarnation of Jesus that many think that is Jesus beginning, as a man yes. but not as a being. There are over 40 scriptures that show us that Jesus existed way before His birth on earth.
Peace and Love Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene……….Please show us ONE PLACE where the WORD “INCARNATED” Jesus is used. You say you have 40 scriptures that say that, but i have not see the word “INCARNATE” once in any of those scriptures. Forcing scripture to meet dogmas if any type is not Proof> Can you tell us why it is so important to you that Jesus PREEXISTED HIS BERTH ON EARTH, WHAT IS BEHIND this assumption that some how would give more or less credence to Jesus in your or anyone else's mind. Why is it so important that Jesus preexisted to you doe that give you more a feeling of reverence for him or perhaps that makes him more different from Man , perhaps some one to (IDOLIZE) for you and others who believe this. What is behind all this SEPARATION of JESUS from the REST of HUMANITY?

peace and love to you and George……………………………………..gene

[Baker]

Gene, Oh Gene!  I did not say anything in Scripture about the incarnation of Jesus.  What I did say what incarnation means.  Webster Dictionary says this 1.endowment with a human body.2.taking on of human form and nature by Jesus as the Son of God.   Jesus coming in the flesh, which was prophesied.  We never doubted that.  THEN I said that there are over 40 scriptures that say that Jesus preexisted.  I don't care if you believe in the preexisting of Jesus or not.  All Scriptures are important to me.  Not just about the preexisting. What is most important to me, that Jesus came in the flesh and died for me.  He is and never was a mere man.  That is your imaganatio0n.  He is the literal Son of God.  That alone  makes Jesus superior to us.   You don't seem to understand that God had to send someone like Jesus, that knew what was at stake.  A mere man would have sinned too….. All humans have fallen short of the glory of God.  Not JESUS.  And that is WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO ME. otherwise we all after our dead, would stay dead…..
Peace Irene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 23 2011,08:28)

Irene……….Please show us ONE PLACE where the WORD “INCARNATED” Jesus is used. You say you have 40 scriptures that say that, but i have not see the word “INCARNATE” once in any of those scriptures.  Forcing scripture to meet dogmas if any type is not Proof> Can you tell us why it is so important to you that Jesus PREEXISTED HIS BERTH ON EARTH, WHAT IS BEHIND this assumption that some how would give more or less  credence to Jesus  in your or anyone else's mind. Why is it so important that Jesus preexisted to you doe that give you more a feeling of reverence for him or perhaps that makes him more different from Man , perhaps some one to (IDOLIZE) for you and others who believe this.  What is behind all this SEPARATION of JESUS from the REST of HUMANITY? peace and love to you and George……………………………………..gene

gene

show me where the word INTELECT is written as well and you use it plainly

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 22 2011,10:34)

All humans have fallen short of the glory of God. Not JESUS.

Bravo!

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 22 2011,13:55)

gene show me where the word INTELECT is written as well and you use it plainly

You forgot the parenthesis. It's actually (INTELLECT).

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2011,21:02)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 22 2011,13:55) gene show me where the word INTELECT is written as well and you use it plainly  You forgot the parenthesis.  It's actually (INTELLECT).

Mike

thanks

Pierre

[Wispring]

Hi everyone,
Paladin's whole purpose to making this thread in my view was to show that Gods' plans cannot be negated. He presented that the concept of Christos or annointing of the Holy Spirit via the word or logos of God to Jesus and also available to us was presented to mankind via the Spirit of Prophesy. He was not saying Jesus was incarnating in DNA. He was presenting prophectic pronouncements coming from God are not linear in the time oriented fashion.They are realized by us, however, in a linear fashion. He was showing us how God's plan of salvation for all mankind began in scripture early in mankinds history. He went on many tangents in response to posts/questions asked of him, yet, he remained steadfast. He through scholary translations of Greek manuscripts has shown how the English translations of our bibles have been slanted towards a trinitarian pre-existent perspective because they were translated for the most part by people who had this slant. Speaking for myself without being indoctrinated into any church-sponsered doctrine. When I first began reading the bible I perceived no 3 in 1 God. I percieved no pre-existant revelation. I did have trouble with the word 'before' until I remembered how it could also mean 'in front of' or 'precedence' or 'in the presence of'. I have been reading at 3rd year level college or above since the 5th grade according Iowa Basic Skills standard testing methods so shame on me. I am not here to thump my understanding of things written in the scripture by force of logic or debating skill down anyones throat. I choose to believe that God in his infinite grace and wisdom will reveal his logian to me as he sees fit,not my will, but, his. I am here to broaden and enrich my understanding of Jesus Christ the man, the first born son of God and his teachings to brighten my soul in his light with the hope of life everlasting in the presence of God. I do believe i was prompted by the Holy Spirit to join this site and am thankful that I did. May God's eternal peace(which is not boring!) be upon you all.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

[terraricca]

Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 23 2011,23:06)

Hi everyone,   Paladin's whole purpose to making this thread in my view was to show that Gods' plans cannot be negated. He presented that the concept of Christos or annointing of the Holy Spirit via the word or logos of God to Jesus and also available to us was presented to mankind via the Spirit of Prophesy. He was not saying Jesus was incarnating in DNA. He was presenting prophectic pronouncements coming from God are not linear in the time oriented fashion.They are realized by us, however, in a linear fashion. He was showing us how God's plan of salvation for all mankind began in scripture early in mankinds history. He went on many tangents in response to posts/questions asked of him, yet, he remained steadfast. He through scholary translations of Greek manuscripts has shown how the English translations of our bibles have been slanted towards a trinitarian pre-existent perspective because they were translated for the most part by people who had this slant. Speaking for myself without being indoctrinated into any church-sponsered doctrine. When I first began reading the bible I perceived no 3 in 1 God. I percieved no pre-existant revelation. I did have trouble with the word 'before' until I remembered how it could also mean 'in front of' or 'precedence' or 'in the presence of'. I have been reading at 3rd year level college or above since the 5th grade according Iowa Basic Skills standard testing methods so shame on me. I am not here to thump my understanding of things written in the scripture by force of logic or debating skill down anyones throat. I choose to believe that God in his infinite grace and wisdom will reveal his logian to me as he sees fit,not my will, but, his. I am here to broaden and enrich my understanding of Jesus Christ the man, the first born son of God and his teachings to brighten my soul in his light with the hope of life everlasting in the presence of God. I do believe i was prompted by the Holy Spirit to join this site and am thankful that I did. May God's eternal peace(which is not boring!) be upon you all.                                                              With Love and Respect,                                                                     Wispring

wispring

most of us will not deny what you saying ,but the scriptures also teach us that God start to create ,and he start with what ?? it seems that scriptures point the finger to Christ or the Word of God his father and that because all things were created trough him and for him ,it then become natural that he is the one choice ,as the only possibility to become the redemption sacrifice to save what actually is his,and so become the door to be saved.

Pierre

[Paladin]

mike[/quote]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 20 2011,16:36)

He couldn't have been the logos of God because that was a new name in 69 a.d. according to John's Apokalypse. (Mike)11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:   KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. This passage mentions 4 names in total: 1.  Faithful and True 2.  The Word of God 3.  King of kings and Lord of lords 4.  A name that no one knows but he himself Paladin, how is it that out of three names we DO know, you pick “Word of God” to be the “NEW NAME” he has been given that no one knows but he himself? If no one knows this “NEW NAME” but he himself, then no one knows this new name.  That means not even John, who was shown the vision.  Or ANYBODY else. So apparently, “Word of God” is not this “NEW NAME” that no one knows but he himself, because John and everyone who's ever read Revelation knows this name.  Which means his name “Word of God” could be the oldest of all of his names.  Just because John found out about his name “Word of God” in 69 A.D. doesn't mean he hasn't had that name since before the world existed.

Excellent question Mike; Still making me do my homework I see.

1) God placed his word above his name for a reason.
“…thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.”[Psa 138:2]
That reason was, to make ready a name that is unused, not previously shared, unique in all of creation, for the purpose of presenting to the successful Christ, that which is promised to him, a “name which is above every name.” When God placed his word above his own name, it was with full forethought and prophetic intent.

2) kai to onoma mou to kainon [and the name of me the new]
That word “kainon” is the acc neut sing form of the adjective kainos, = new; of new quality; unused; unknown, unheard of; the latest thing.  
A simple word study would being out this information. It is my opinion that those who are arguing the position you are defending are doing so because you have not done your homework. There isno way this “new name” could possibly have been in use prior to 69 a.d., at which time John tells us it is new; of new quality; unused, etc.

3)The evidence of Revelation itself – “His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man [oiden] knew, but he himself.” [Rev 19:12]
oiden = indicative perfect active 3rd pers sing form of oida = having come to knowledge through experience; knowabout, recognize, understand

The word “oiden” is a word that involves knowledge through experience, not through aging proccess. Jesus was given a name which no man had come to understand through experience; because it was new, not previously experienced, unused.

There are several things to consider in this issue, some of which have been revealed to me even as I “did my homework” for this discussion. I like to think of it as Holy Spirit involvement, as of course, do we all. But you decide.

Jesus was in the proccess of establishing the standards for not only a “new heaven and new earth” – but also he was establishing a “new and living way” for the people of God. This was accomplished by modifying not only the understanding of the people, but by modifying the behaviour also.

Prior to this time, the lifestyle of the saints was focused upon the concept “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you…”[Rom 8:9a]- i.e, If you are in the spirit, the spirit of God will dwell in you.

But God had a plan, a concept, a “logos” if you will… whereby the life of the saints would go beyond that which is spiritual, and having the spirit of God dwell therein.

He provided a concept by which the concern for the saints would go deeper than the spiritual life all the way to the life in the flesh. Previously, the standard was “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” [Gal 2:16]

Now man could attain in the flesh that which was out of reach before, a whole new concept to establish a whole new standard. “To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself…” [II Cor 5:19]

In the mean time, We are to strive to be all in one, in Christ Jesus.
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” [Gal 3:28]

So there was a standard attained by the saints that by eliminating the differences between us, and joining together in the spirit of oneness, in Christ, Jesus will become all in all. “Where there is neither Greek nor Jew circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.” [Col 3:11]

And the church is the body of him who is all in all  – “Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.” [Eph 1:23]

But God's ultimate goal is to be “all in all.” “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

In order to attain a standard so new and radically different, God provided a means whereby the saints could be involved not only when they are “in the Spirit” so that the spriit of God can dwell therein, but even the flesh of the saints became significant. This was new territory, not previously accepted, for the saints were required to be “…not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you…”

Now, God sent Paul to proclaim to the whole world, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” [Gal 2:20]

This idea that “in the flesh” can actually be a saintly standard was new, and living. It was fresh and unknown. Paul went further in the same letter to Galatia – “My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,” [Gal 4:19]

Paul is not speaking of an overnight magic transformation, he is speaking of a lifestyle change, a complete overturning of a way of living, to a “new and living way.” Christ is not simplt poure dinto a saint as that saint rests in repose, nor as he sleeps in fatigue, no, my friend, this is a lifechangeing proccess whereby the saint changes his behaviour, even to yielding his very life to Christ.

“Examine yourselves,” says Paul, “whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you,[II Cor 13:5]

This is a life-altering indwelling, no longer limited to “…not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you…,” but now including even the flesh, every aspect of the life of the saints.
 
Paul goes on to tell of his involvement, and tells us the name of the plan, or concept, and that he is totally involved in bringing this concept to completion- “…which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 25 Whereof I am
made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to pleerwsai [fulfil] the logos of God;
pleerwsai = aorist active infinitive form of pleerow – make come true, bring about; bring to completion;

Paul goes on to explain what this new goal is – “Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:” [Col 1:23,25-27]

The theme of “the new and living way” is “God is in Christ; “Christ lives in you, in your flesh; so that it is no longer you that lives, but Christ lives in you, and God is in Christ, so that you are truly living life in a “new and living way.”

That, my freind, is what this phrase “the logos of God” is all about. John tells us in 69 a.d. that it is to be used as a name for him that brought it about, Christ Jesus living in the flesh, and God dwelling in the spirit; so that ultimately God will be “all in all.”

In 85 a.d. John wrote: “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in flesh is of God:” [In this verse John uses (eleeluthota perfect active accusative masculine singular form of the verb participle erxomai) The use of the perfect active participle is to show the continuing result in an active way, of Christ coming in flesh of the saints; i.e., the personification of the logos of God.

“For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” II John 7][This time john uses (erxomenon present middle or pass deponent accusative masculine singular form of verb participle erxomai) to show the ongoing effect of Christ in flesh as saints give over control of their life to Jesus.

In both cases, the word translated “confess” is not talking about “confession, as of sins,” but is talking about sharing information as in proclaiming an experience. You are confessing that “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” [Gal 2:20]

In 96 a.d, about the time of the close of his life, John recaps the history of Christianity and the church as he begins with the beginning of the gospel – “In the beginning…”

He tells of the new creation, by which in Christ all things become new – “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things gegonen new.” [II Cor 5:17]

“All things egeneto by him; and without him was not any thing egeneto  that gegonen.” [John 1:3]

The exact wording is used by both Paul and John to describe the new creation, wherein all things [ginomai kainos] are become new.

The catalogue of “new things” is foundCLICK HERE and scroll down to the fourth post on the page.

“The Logos of God” is a new thing – “A new and living way” whereby both the spirit and the flesh of men are benefited in the kingdom of God through the “logos of God” which is “Christ in you.” It is not Jesus, it is a concept about you and Jesus.

[Paladin]

Hello dear sister, who has quit several times, and been resurrected, welcome back. And I mean it sincerely.

(Irene)

Quote

The prophecy of Jesus has nothing to do with that Jesus preexisted His birth on earth.  Incarnation means that He came in the flesh.

The issue does not revolve around a word that is not even found in scripture my dear sister, it revolves around a word not even debated by those who believe in the pre-existant Christ, and that word is gennaw [“begotten.”]

“Gennaw” is a word that is translated “Beget, begotten, born, bear, bare, birth, conceive. It is a word that means “to cause to be.” There is no way Jesus' spirit preceded his begettal.

John tells us that which is gennaw of the spirit is spirit.[John 3:6] and Mathew tells us “that which is gennaw in her is of the Holy spirit” [Mat 1:20] So between Mathew and John we are told that Jesus was “caused to be” in Mary, and is spirit.

As for the flesh of Jesus, he was “made of a woman”[Gal 4:4] just as Eve was made from Adam's rib. So the argument cannot be made, “It was the man who was begotten” as though that makes any kind of sense at all. That still leaves the begotten spirit to be explained.

This is totally unneccessary if Jesus was prexistent, as it would be impossible for the spirit to “beget” what already existed. It is a fable made up by those “word gamers” referenced elswehere on the board. And I did not originate this, God did.

[Paladin]

Actually, dear sister, there are much more than forty verses that are used to prove that Jesus pre-existed his existence, but that doesn't mean that is what they teach. it simply means that is what they are used for.

(Irene)

Quote

There are over 40 scriptures that show us that Jesus existed way before His birth on earth. Peace and Love Irene

[Wispring]

Hi Paladin,
Could you talk about the anointing of Jesus by the Holy Spirit at birth, from John, then perhaps again at the transfiguration? Where these levels of anointing or stages of the annointing process or something else. I cannot understand the need for 3 anointings. Maybe that is just how things went and there is no teaching in in it… I don't know. Thanks. I know it is not appropriate for this thread. If the answere is short and sweet a pm would work.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

[Baker]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 23 2011,21:06)

Actually, dear sister, there are much more than forty verses that are used to prove that Jesus pre-existed his existence, but that doesn't mean that is what they teach. it simply means that is what they are used for. (Irene) Quote There are over 40 scriptures that show us that Jesus existed way before His birth on earth. Peace and Love Irene

No my friend you are ignoring those Scriptures, and I don't know for the world why? When Jesus told us that He came from Heaven to do the will of His Father, you ignore. Why? Just because you think they were put there by the Translators that YOU think they believe in a trinity? When Jesus says He wants the glory He had with His Father before the world was, He is lying?
Jhn 17:5 καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ πάτερ παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί
I can take word by word and see if this is true or false….I have all the Dictionaries I want. From German to Greek and Hebrew.
And when you go on the Internet, they will deny that Jesus existed. Would it not be correct if they believe in the trinity, which most do, they would also believe in the preexisting of Jesus?
Yes, my friend all do that believe in the trinity. The difference is that they don't believe that Jesus had a beginning. The firstborn of all creation. And all those Scriptures YOU will deny. You might as well throw the Bible out, because YOU don't believe in some of those Scriptures….
Dear Brother, maybe YOU should consider believing what Jesus said…….
Peace and Love Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene……….Your just not understanding it was a Predestined Glory that was in the Plan and Will of GOD. But it did not happen till it happened after Jesus' Berth on earth. The apostle PETER said it Right Jesus was 'FOREORDAINED” (BUT) WAS “MANIFESTED” in our time. Paladin has presented it right. IMO

peace and love to you and Georg………………………………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 23 2011,03:24)

1) God placed his word above his name for a reason. “…thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.”[Psa 138:2]

We've already discussed this Paladin.  There is nothing above the Name of YHWH.  Read the LXX translation of this Psalm and tell me what it says.  Because apparently you didn't believe me when I showed you.

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 23 2011,03:24)

There isno way this “new name” could possibly have been in use prior to 69 a.d., at which time John tells us it is new; of new quality; unused, etc.

A very good reason for “Word of God” to NOT be the new name Jesus has been given.  

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 23 2011,03:24)

Jesus was given a name which no man had come to understand through experience; because it was new, not previously experienced, unused.

And John was a man.  Therefore if no MAN knew it, then John didn't know it.  Therefore, “Word of God” can't be that new name.  And “ouden” means “no one” or “nothing”.  It comes from the word “oude” which means “not” and the word “heis” which means “one”.

And you haven't answered my question.  How is it that you've picked only one of the three names mentioned in Rev 19 and have decided that particular one is the name that “no one knows but he himself”?

And don't say you answered it in your post.  Because I waded through that huge posts and found no answer to my simple question.  I only found your imagination in overdrive.

Are you hearing me correctly?  I'm asking:  Since “the Word of God” is only one of the three names of Jesus mentioned in Rev 19 that we DO KNOW, why would you zero in on only that one of three names, and decide that it is the “name no one knows”, especially considering we DO KNOW IT?

Do you get it? We all know “Faithful and True”, so that can't possibly be the name that no one knows but Jesus.  We all know “Word of God”, so that can't be the name that no one knows but Jesus.  We all know “King of kings and Lord of lords”, so that can't be the name that no one knows but Jesus.

And even if you wanted to twist the scripture to say “a name no one knows but he himself…………..UNTIL RIGHT NOW”, you still must explain why “the Word of God” is the one name out of the three mentioned that you chose to be this “new name”.  Why not the other two?

mike

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