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Ed,
There are FIVE POINTS I've listed in my post. Please address them IN ORDER, so that I can see exactly where you swap out your reading and comprehension skills for your own personal wishes.
(Btw, your attempt to avoid and divert from this issue shows that you cannot address it. But I would still like you to try. If you choose not to try, I will consider you to be in the ranks with people like Gene, who consistently put their own wishes for what the Bible SHOULD teach over the actual teachings of the Bible.)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2011,22:08) Hey all, I think God has showed me a way to end the discussion about the pre-existence of Jesus once and for all.
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’
It is CRYSTAL CLEAR from these verses that JESUS is the one John said surpassed him because he was before him.
Are there any doubts so far that it was JESUS John said these words about?
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”
Now we've already seen from verses 29 and 30, which I quoted above, that JESUS is the one about whom John says these words, right?
Is there any doubt that whoever is referred to as “him” in verse 15 is the same one referred to as “JESUS” in verse 29?
Now, we only have to find out who the “him” is in verse 15.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testifies concerning him.
Again, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that the pronoun “him” from verse 15 refers back to the subject of verse 14. And who is the subject of verse 14? Why, the Word of course.
So it is clear that it was “the Word” about whom John said, “He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me”. And in verse 29, it is made clear that the one John said these words about is JESUS. Therefore, Jesus IS the “him” from verse 15, and therefore “the Word” from verse 14.
Who among you can deny this teaching?
Mike,Do you believe anyone who existed before John surpasses John?
I ask because John is stating Jesus surpasses him because he was before him.
This is John's argument put in logical reasoning format.
All those that come before John surpass him.
This person comes before John
Therefore this person surpasses JohnQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2011,01:31) Ed, Let's take this one step at a time, so we can see exactly where your understanding breaks down – ie: where you start adding your own thoughts into the scriptures. Please address each point individually.
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’
It is CRYSTAL CLEAR from these verses that JESUS is the one John said surpassed him because he was before him.
1) Ed, do you have any doubts so far that John said these words about JESUS?
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”
Now we've already seen from verses 29 and 30, which I quoted above, that JESUS is the one about whom John says these words, right?
2) Ed, is there any doubt that whoever is referred to as “him” in verse 15 is the same one referred to as “JESUS” in verse 29?
If not, then we only have to find out who the “him” is in verse 15.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testifies concerning him.
Again, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that the pronouns “him” and “his” refer back to the subject of verse 14. And who is the subject of verse 14? Why, the Word of course.
3) Ed, do you agree that the pronouns “his” from verse 14 and “him” from verse 15 refer back to the subject of verse 14? YES or NO?
4) Ed, WHO is the subject of verse 14?
CONCLUSION:
It is clear from verses 14 and 15 that it was “the Word” about whom John said, “He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me”. And in verse 29, it is made clear that the one John said these words about is JESUS. Therefore, Jesus IS the “him” from verse 15, and therefore “the Word” from verse 14.5) Ed, can you deny this teaching?
I heartily invite Kerwin, Paladin, Gene, and Marty to also address this post – POINT BY POINT – so I can see exactly where any of you veer away from scripture, and start substituting common sense with your own twistings and imaginations.
Mike ……….We all have already addressed those points over and over and over for the past 6 years, why don;t you just go back and reread them and come out of your state of denial you seem to be living in> IMOpeace and love…………………………………………………gene
Hi Mike,
John 1:29 (AKJV Bible): The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1) John is speaking of Jesus here.
2) Him in verse 15 refers to the same entity as in verse 29.
3) You need to repackage this question; OK?
4) “The Word” is the subject of verse 14, going back to verse one; and Jesus is the object of verse 14, going back to verse 7.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2011,05:57) CONCLUSION:
It is clear from verses 14 and 15 that it was “the Word” about whom John said, “He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me”. And in verse 29, it is made clear that the one John said these words about is JESUS. Therefore, Jesus IS the “him” from verse 15, and therefore “the Word” from verse 14.5) Ed, can you deny this teaching?
5) Yes
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (kerwin @ Nov. 26 2011,13:30) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2011,22:08) Hey all, I think God has showed me a way to end the discussion about the pre-existence of Jesus once and for all.
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’
It is CRYSTAL CLEAR from these verses that JESUS is the one John said surpassed him because he was before him.
Are there any doubts so far that it was JESUS John said these words about?
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”
Now we've already seen from verses 29 and 30, which I quoted above, that JESUS is the one about whom John says these words, right?
Is there any doubt that whoever is referred to as “him” in verse 15 is the same one referred to as “JESUS” in verse 29?
Now, we only have to find out who the “him” is in verse 15.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testifies concerning him.
Again, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that the pronoun “him” from verse 15 refers back to the subject of verse 14. And who is the subject of verse 14? Why, the Word of course.
So it is clear that it was “the Word” about whom John said, “He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me”. And in verse 29, it is made clear that the one John said these words about is JESUS. Therefore, Jesus IS the “him” from verse 15, and therefore “the Word” from verse 14.
Who among you can deny this teaching?
Mike,Do you believe anyone who existed before John surpasses John?
I ask because John is stating Jesus surpasses him because he was before him.
This is John's argument put in logical reasoning format.
All those that come before John surpass him.
This person comes before John
Therefore this person surpasses John
KerwinHow can you come to this conclusion of yours?
First John the Baptist was born six month prior to Jesus so he was conceived that same time before Christ so in this way he could not be in no way Before John ,and yet John says Jesus was before him ,and he pointing at the person of Jesus nothing else,
And now you try with your own logic find a enterpretation that fit your believes but make John look like a man that did know what he was talking about,
It is the same with Col:1:13-21
You can not accept what scriptures says ,how can believe in them??
Pierre
Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 26 2011,12:40) Hi Mike, By you trying to make Jesus the word, you have to many holes
with the rest of Scripture; why do you have so much trouble seeing this?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.1. Do you deny that HolySpirit is God? (Acts 5:3-4, Matt.12:32, Luke 12:10)
2. Do you deny that the HolySpirit was with God in the beginning? (Genesis 1:2)
3. Do you deny that the HolySpirit was sent to us, giving us the glory that Jesus had?the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)1. Do you deny that the word fathered Jesus. (Hebrews 7:28)
2. Do you deny that the word fathers us? (1Pet.1:23, James 1:18)
3. Do you deny that Jesus said we were going to be one with them?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org]http/….rg]http
EDJWhy is it that you have to change the way scriptures are written to make them to comply to your understanding ??
It would like if you tell God what he should do,
Not ask him what you can do to please him.Pierre
Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 25 2011,16:21) Hi Mike, 1) John is speaking of Jesus here.
2) Him in verse 15 refers to the same entity as in verse 29.
3) You need to repackage this question; OK?
4) “The Word” is the subject of verse 14, going back to verse one; and Jesus is the object of verse 14, going back to verse 7.
Praise Jah! Ed, thank you for your direct answers to points 1 and 2! As I said, now I can see where your understanding breaks down – so let's deal with that.Ed, we have both read his posts for over two years on HN. I want to know if you like him. Do you?
Ed, please answer this bolded question.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2011,13:30) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2011,22:08) Hey all, I think God has showed me a way to end the discussion about the pre-existence of Jesus once and for all.
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’
It is CRYSTAL CLEAR from these verses that JESUS is the one John said surpassed him because he was before him.
Are there any doubts so far that it was JESUS John said these words about?
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”
Now we've already seen from verses 29 and 30, which I quoted above, that JESUS is the one about whom John says these words, right?
Is there any doubt that whoever is referred to as “him” in verse 15 is the same one referred to as “JESUS” in verse 29?
Now, we only have to find out who the “him” is in verse 15.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testifies concerning him.
Again, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that the pronoun “him” from verse 15 refers back to the subject of verse 14. And who is the subject of verse 14? Why, the Word of course.
So it is clear that it was “the Word” about whom John said, “He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me”. And in verse 29, it is made clear that the one John said these words about is JESUS. Therefore, Jesus IS the “him” from verse 15, and therefore “the Word” from verse 14.
Who among you can deny this teaching?
Mike,Do you believe anyone who existed before John surpasses John?
I ask because John is stating Jesus surpasses him because he was before him.
This is John's argument put in logical reasoning format.
All those that come before John surpass him.
This person comes before John
Therefore this person surpasses John
Kerwin,I see your post as a diversion. Please address the meat of my post.
1. Does the pronoun “him” in verse 15 refer to Jesus?
2. Does the pronoun “him” in verse 15 also refer back to the pronoun “his” in verse 14?
3. Does the pronoun “his” in verse 14 refer back to “the Word”?Please DIRECTLY answer these three questions, Kerwin.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 25 2011,15:45) Mike ……….We all have already addressed those points over and over and over for the past 6 years………..
Gene,This line of questioning was just given to me by God only two days ago. So you couldn't possibly have answered these points TO ME yet.
Please just directly answer the three questions I've asked Kerwin in the post directly preceding this one.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 27 2011,03:05) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 25 2011,16:21) Hi Mike, 1) John is speaking of Jesus here.
2) Him in verse 15 refers to the same entity as in verse 29.
3) You need to repackage this question; OK?
4) “The Word” is the subject of verse 14, going back to verse one; and Jesus is the object of verse 14, going back to verse 7.
Praise Jah! Ed, thank you for your direct answers to points 1 and 2! As I said, now I can see where your understanding breaks down – so let's deal with that.Ed, we have both read his posts for over two years on HN. I want to know if you like him. Do you?
Ed, please answer this bolded question.
Well thank you Mike.Quote
Ed, we have both read his posts for over two years on HN. I want to know if you like him. Do you?
Who's posts; to whom do you refer?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Nov. 26 2011,10:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 27 2011,03:05) Ed, we have both read his posts for over two years on HN. I want to know if you like him. Do you?
Who's posts; to whom do you refer?God bless
Ed J
Oh, that's right. I left out the first sentence that listed the subject, didn't I? I guess that goes to show that one can't just start a thought with a pronoun and expect people to know who they're talking about, right? Let me add the first part of my thought:Worshipping Jesus became virtual, dwelled among us in the virtual world of Heaven Net, and we have seen his glory, the glory of your average Trinitarian. Ed, we have both read his posts for over two years on HN. I want to know if you like him. Do you?
Ed, has it now become clear to you who the pronouns “his” and “him” refer to? Can you now answer the question?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2011,22:08) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2011,13:30) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2011,22:08) Hey all, I think God has showed me a way to end the discussion about the pre-existence of Jesus once and for all.
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’
It is CRYSTAL CLEAR from these verses that JESUS is the one John said surpassed him because he was before him.
Are there any doubts so far that it was JESUS John said these words about?
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”
Now we've already seen from verses 29 and 30, which I quoted above, that JESUS is the one about whom John says these words, right?
Is there any doubt that whoever is referred to as “him” in verse 15 is the same one referred to as “JESUS” in verse 29?
Now, we only have to find out who the “him” is in verse 15.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testifies concerning him.
Again, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that the pronoun “him” from verse 15 refers back to the subject of verse 14. And who is the subject of verse 14? Why, the Word of course.
So it is clear that it was “the Word” about whom John said, “He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me”. And in verse 29, it is made clear that the one John said these words about is JESUS. Therefore, Jesus IS the “him” from verse 15, and therefore “the Word” from verse 14.
Who among you can deny this teaching?
Mike,Do you believe anyone who existed before John surpasses John?
I ask because John is stating Jesus surpasses him because he was before him.
This is John's argument put in logical reasoning format.
All those that come before John surpass him.
This person comes before John
Therefore this person surpasses John
Kerwin,I see your post as a diversion. Please address the meat of my post.
1. Does the pronoun “him” in verse 15 refer to Jesus?
2. Does the pronoun “him” in verse 15 also refer back to the pronoun “his” in verse 14?
3. Does the pronoun “his” in verse 14 refer back to “the Word”?Please DIRECTLY answer these three questions, Kerwin.
Mike,The spirit of God is rational and therefore uses both sound in valid reason. If your argument is not based on the same then it is not from God. That is why I pointed out the flaw in the reasoning that led to your conclusion. There is no sense in going further until the rationality of your understanding is addressed.
kerwin
Mike ask you simple question in scriptures not of is own written words but in scriptures ,so what is now that those scriptures have that they become Mike personal problem
just think if a child comes to you asking those same questions what would be your answers based on your understanding ?? that simple
Pierre
Kerwin…………..I concur if it is not sound in reason lines with the Spirit (intellect) Of Truth , it should be questioned and we should not except anything that is not “SOUND” Truth. IMO also.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 27 2011,04:32) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 26 2011,10:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 27 2011,03:05) Ed, we have both read his posts for over two years on HN. I want to know if you like him. Do you?
Who's posts; to whom do you refer?God bless
Ed J
Oh, that's right. I left out the first sentence that listed the subject, didn't I? I guess that goes to show that one can't just start a thought with a pronoun and expect people to know who they're talking about, right? Let me add the first part of my thought:Worshipping Jesus became virtual, dwelled among us in the virtual world of Heaven Net, and we have seen his glory, the glory of your average Trinitarian. Ed, we have both read his posts for over two years on HN. I want to know if you like him. Do you?
Ed, has it now become clear to you who the pronouns “his” and “him” refer to? Can you now answer the question?
Hi Mike,I do enjoy Kieth as being a part of the H-net family; do you also?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd,
Absolutely I'm glad Keith posts here. I have probably learned more about scripture because of him than anyone else on this site. He is sharp and sharpens me.
But what made you think I was asking a question about Keith?
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 27 2011,18:29) Mike, The spirit of God is rational and therefore uses both sound in valid reason. If your argument is not based on the same then it is not from God. That is why I pointed out the flaw in the reasoning that led to your conclusion. There is no sense in going further until the rationality of your understanding is addressed.
Kerwin,I'm asking a few questions based on the very words of John 1 – nothing more.
And I can tell from both yours and Gene's responses that I've shown you something you've never noticed before, and that it clearly puts a damper on your “Jesus is not the Word” theory.
There is nothing in my simple questions that would show me to be “unsound”, or “irrational”. I'm basically asking you to acknowledge that pronouns refer back to the subject; and to address the fact that the pronouns “his” and “him” in verses 14 and 15 refer back to “The Word”.
Now if you have a reason to suggest that this STILL doesn't mean Jesus is the Word, then please address that reason AFTER you acknowledge the obvious.
Because it seems to me that you are being shown clear proof of something, but because it doesn't sit well with your doctrine, you've decided that, ONCE AGAIN, the scriptural words don't really mean what they clearly say. And you're attempting to disguise your re-writing of the scriptures as “MY unsoundness” and “MY irrational thinking”.
Kerwin and Gene, please just DIRECTLY answer my three questions.
peace,
mikeQuote (terraricca @ Nov. 27 2011,21:37) kerwin Mike ask you simple question in scriptures not of is own written words but in scriptures ,so what is now that those scriptures have that they become Mike personal problem
just think if a child comes to you asking those same questions what would be your answers based on your understanding ?? that simple
Pierre
Well put, my friend.
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