Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 16 2011,15:15)

[/quote] Paladin,Mar. wrote: Because David knew that God had promised him that of his loins one would come that would be his Lord, as resurrected Christ. (Mike) And the Pharisees also thought as you do, Paladin.

That's o.k. for you to say that Mike as long as you remember, the Devil thinks like you do, so it really has no power does it? (Remember, “Thou believest God is one, the devils believe, and tremble”) If the Pharisees really think as I do, it will be a surprise to me.

(Mike)

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They expected a Messiah who would be NOTHING BUT a son of David.

But what makes you think that is what I think Mike? Is that what you garner from my remark? “Because David knew that God had promised him that of his loins one would come that would be his Lord, as resurrected Christ.”

I fail to see anything remotely resembling “Nothing but a son of David” anywhere in the remark. Please, Mike, enlighten me.

(Mike)

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Why do you think when Jesus gave them the teaching in Luke 20 they could say nothing in reply?

Perhaps they didn't have a copy of the new testament in their saddle bags? Or the old? Perhaps they did not have the advantage of hindsight of two thousand years after the resurrection, which if I remember correctly, had not yet taken place. Feel free to Correct me if I'm wrong.  

(Mike)

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The head of the house was called “lord” by the women and the children.  The son was not called “my lord” by the father.  Yet David spoke of the Messiah as his lord when the Messiah was supposed to be a son of David.

And how did Kish address king Saul?

But David himself was xristos and Kurios, and he was God's prophet, so he knew it was not a “women and kids” kind of thing. As Luke clearly testified, “The Lord said unto my Lord” was a prophetic testimony. “Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”[Acts 2:30-36]

David knew that Saul was Xristos and kurios, but he also knew that his appointments would end with his death, as it was with all the kings. But he saw, not xristos and kurios Jesus, as he himself (“David”) was, but as Jesus was, resurrected and re-appointed i.e., “made him (resurrected Christ) both kurios and Xristos.”

{Note: Look at the same language applied to kings of old and Jesus: –

Luke 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the XRISTON KURIOU [Lord's Christ].

2 Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but XRISTON KURION Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

1 Samuel 26:9 And David said to Abishai, Destroy him not: for who can stretch forth his hand against the LORD'S XRISTON  KURIOU[Lord's anointed], and be guiltless?

1 Samuel 26:11 The LORD forbid that I should stretch forth mine hand against the XRISTON  KURIOU [LORD'S anointed]: but, I pray thee, take thou now the spear that is at his bolster, and the cruse of water, and let us go.}

(Mike)

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Jacob didn't even call Joseph “my lord” when Joseph was ruling over all of Egypt.  In fact, the one who blesses is the greater, right?  We just learned this about Melchisedek.  The ruler over all of Egypt brought his own sons in to be blessed BY Jacob. So it didn't fit in Hebrew culture that a father would call his son “my lord”.  And that's what Jesus was teaching the Pharisees – that the Messiah must be someone who is NOT ONLY the son of David, or David would have never called his son “my lord”.  It is also taught to us by the fact that Jesus is not only the branch of David, but also the ROOT.

Romans 15:12 “And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.”
[root = from Greek “riza” = Strong's number 4491 rhiza  
Meaning:  1) a root 2) that which like a root springs from a root, a  sprout, shoot 3) metaph. offspring, progeny

O.K. David probably knew of the remark, seeing as how he was the prophet who wrote it. And he had already written
“And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:”[Isa 11:1]

Some read the 10th verse and think it references a root as the cause of David, but verse 1 eliminates that understanding, which David knew when he wrote verse 10. If you know anything about tree husbandry, you know what
“rootstock” is, when a tree grows up from a root that comes from another tree, it continues to bring shoots up alongside the first tree, and sometimes are so prolific they have to be pruned else they stunt the growth of the tree. Jesus is a shoot growing from the same root from which Jesse grew.

(Mike)

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This is also taught in Micah 5:2, when we learn the Messiah actually had his origins long ago.

“Whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting” is a reference to prophecy which began in Gen 3:15.

(Mike)

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But consider the scripture YOU posted, Paladin: 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; What do those words “according to the flesh” mean to you?  What other way would Jesus come from the loins of David if not “flesh”?  Why did Paul say it then………..as if he had to distinguish the manner that Jesus was OF David?

Because Peter was explaining to the crowd in Jerusalem on Pentecost, that this offspring of David was more than flesh being considered, which would have ended when Jesus died on the cross; but Jesus was raised,
and re-appointed to kurions and xristos, both appointments having ended with his death, just as it had with the priests and kings of the old testament. Peter is telling them it did not end when the flesh did, but continued beyond fleshly considerations.  

(Mike)

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This is not the only time it's said in scripture, either.  Many times when Jesus is mentioned as coming from David, it is accompanied by “according to the flesh” or “as to his human nature”, etc. Don't you wonder why they would say that weird thing, as if Jesus could have been anything other than flesh coming from the loins of a flesh and blood person?

Not when you consider it wasn't David that said it, but Peter that is explaining it to the crowd in Jerusalem on Pentecost. And it also helps to remember that resurrection was a new concept to that crowd, so it required a little more explanation for them than it would for your and I who have years of study behind us, and generations of people who are familiar with the concept.

Hope and Grace to you Mike, and yours.

[SimplyForgiven]

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He is one of the few posters to reveal the meanings of the words in the Hebrew and Greek texts.

Hi Wispring
Actually most of us here do.
Espeacialy Myself, Mike, WJ, KJ, David, Francis, and many others.

We had a WHOLE debate and several threads based on hebrews and greek terms.
Espeacially “Elohim” '”Theos” “Monogenes” and many other terms.

Just sayin, the hebrew and greek debates are common here.

[Paladin]

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 17 2011,04:30)

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 17 2011,01:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 14 2011,06:30) (M) Quote I agree with Paladin that to be “begotten” means that Jesus did have a beginning.  I don't agree with him that his beginning was in the seed of Adam.  I believe his beginning was before all the ages, as taught in Micah 5:2. Hello Mike; Perhaps it is simply that I have failed to properly explain the issue. Perhaps not. I will try again. Before any effor twas put into creating anything, God brought forth wisdom, with whom he colaborated in the creation. But there were several other things he did, just as any master builder makes blueprints and lays out a material list, and counts the cost of material, labor, property purchase, and a host of other considerations prior to building, so also God preplanned according to foreknowledge and determinate counsel; He laid down the qualifications for certain classes of people; i.e., faithful, unfaithful, good, evil, etc. He qualified certain types of persons to become members in his kingdom, before the kingdom ever existed. Consider, a man begins to plan for marriage, and dreams of progeny in whom he intends to invest a good part of his life, as well as his goods, and his abilities. He wants his children to be cared for in case of his demise, so he plans accordingly. He writes a will delineating what goes to who, what happens to his goods if his children abandon their mother to her fate, or if they remain faithful to their duties and care for her; Who gets the largest portion of what part; and who gets a lessor portion of some and a larger portion of some other; all the little details of balancing fairness with provision; justice with love; sternness with love. God determined to provide a sacrifice for sin, based upon a fact that had not happened at the time he made the provision; i.e., man had not fallen, because God had not made man yet. God provided for every possible outcome; if Adam sinned and Eve did not; if Eve sinned and Adam did not; if neither parent sinned, but their progeny did. id Adam and Eve sinned but their offspring did not; all possibilities were provided for. God promised Jesus glory, before the world was created; God hid his wisdom for our glory before he created the world; We were chosen in Christ before God created the world; We were given by God, works to perform, before he created the world; We were given purpose and grace in Christ, before God created the world; We were given the promise of eternal life before God created the world; Jesus was foreordained to be the sacrificial lamb before the foundation of the world; God loved Jesus before the foundation of the world. All these things were already set to happen, before the world was even begun in creation. God's forethought and planning, translated into promise, made all the preplanned things as real as God's word can make them, simply because he said it, it was so. Adam and Eve were introduced into the equation in the garden, and instructed concerning what was allowed and what was not allowed. If they remained faithful, there would be no need for the sin sacrifice, for them; If they remained faithful, and their progeny remained faithful, there would never have been a Messiah come to serve as a sacrifice for sin that never took place. God provided for all possibilities. And when man failed to remain faithful, God gave them hope in the form of prophecies, beginning with Gen 3:15, and culminating in the closing pages of the old testament. All through the old testament God enhanced his children's understanding, by providing them with more clues as to the identity of Messiah, but without ever telling them precisely what to look for, because if he had spoken clearly, Satan would have known, and he would not have killed Jesus; thus thwarting God's plan for man's salvation. God told the Jews enough in the Hebrew scripture, to lead them to Christ. He then told “the rest of the story” in a Greek account, and gave it to the Hebrew people for safe keeping until the Gentiles began to come into the kingdom. God introduced himself to Abraham as a single-person-God; he introduced himself to Moses as a single-person-single being. He introduced himself to his prophets using singular nouns, pronouns, definite article, adjectives and verbs. And he put all that planning into fruition as he began with planning, and moved on to creating, and continued with sustaining what he had put into reality. The prophets spoke of ancient mountains, ancient landmarks; ancient boundaries, and property markers, as well as ancient civilizations, and other things that were of a very old age, and Micah also spoke of ancient things, using the same language the other prophets used, referencing things that were created, like mountains and landmarks, and used the term “ow-lam” to describe something of a very old age. When Micah said “his goings forth are from of old, from everlasting” he used that word “ow-lam” which means way back before your known ancestors. He is speaking of prophecies, as far back in time as Gen 3:15. He is not speaking of eternity. Mountains and landmarks and civilizations were not around in eternity. There is nothing in Micah's writings to suggest Jesus was in existance other than in prophecy. The same holds true of all the prophets. When Eve was deceived and transgressed, and shared her transgression with Adam, Messiah began to exist when God pronounced the first Messianic prophecy in Gen 3:15. And Messiah existed in prophecy all the way down to the New Testament times, when he became real when “Jesus began to be about thirty years of age” and began his life's mission. And the rest is history. Hi Paladin, Thanks for sharing your beliefs with us! I do have one question, however. If as you say God provided for every contingency, are you not insinuating that you may not believe the first part of this verse in…  Isaiah 46:10?  … Is.46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: So my question is… How can God declare what is going to happen if (according to Paladin) he doesn't know?      …Please explain this aspect of your belief in more detail for us all here,     so we con understand a bit more where you are coming from; OK? Your brother in Christ, Jesus! Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

There are two aspects of God's activity; His planned and purposed activity, and those activities he puts into action due to unforeseen circumstances.

For example, we know God plans and provides according to what is in his mind –
“And this s
hall be a sign unto thee, that shall come upon thy two sons, on Hophni and Phinehas; in one day they shall die both of them. 35 And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.”

So God plans, then looks for someone who will carry out what is in God's mind.

Then there is another kind of activity about which God says –

“And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle. 4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; 5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:“[Jer 19:3-5]

God denies that their activity ever came into his mind. But it does not end with one verse; “But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it. 35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.” [Jer 32:34-35]

So God is not saying he thinks of everything. He provides for all possibilities, then awaits events, and takes whatever action is needful to accomplish his ultimate goal.

An example of how this works is Ninevah, to which he sent Jonah to preach to the citizens to repent of their wickedness. He had already pronounced their doom, “tell that wicked city I will destroy it in forty days.” [Jon 3:4] But Ninevah repented. God delayed the judgment that he had pronounced [Jon 3:10] for a generation, at which time he did in fact destroy it.

The important thing to remember however, is that God knows “probabilities” better than any other living being, so he pretty well knows all that is going to happen, just sometimes men come up with something that he had not foreseen. But even then, it is never something that God hasn't prepared for.

It is kinda like when a father let's his son take the car out for the first time alone; he has paid for insurance, given instruction, driven with him long enough to evaluate the driving habits and trainability of his son, and purchased a jack and tire changing tools, and provided everything he can think of to sustain his son's safety. Still, unforeseen circumstances can change it all  in the blik of an eye. With God, he has already provided for all possibilities, which does not require that he acknowledges each of them by his thought proccesses.

[Paladin]

Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 17 2011,11:08)

Hi Paladin,   The clarity with which you present the text of scripture, the meaning of the words in Greek and English and the grammatical rules of these languages shows to me that your truly are a bible scholar. I for one appreciate very much what you are doing here. To be honest I read your posts and alot of other threads on this web-site before I decided that I would like to join this site and it was yours that convinced me. When you said something along the lines of you have to begin at the beginning and understand things in chronological order you had my attention, because it made sense to me that God would reveal things to us in a way that we would understand. He is God and loves us more than we can know after all. I am not sharing these thoughts to puff you up, merely to express my appreciation for your high quality work and method. Paladin…thank you. You sir are a blessing.                                                                      Respectfully,                                                                            Wispring

May I turn you on your head, my friend?

It is the readers and hearers that are the true blessings on the board, because it is you guys and gals that make us do our homework, when you are not satisfied with sloppy responses, or “quick” answers.

In other words, you make us give you our best efforts. Sometimes I “hate” that. And especially when it comes from someone I am disagreeing with. I give him what I think should be easily recognized as “rebuttal” and he will come back with a question I had not covered, and makes me do my homework, and grinding my teeth, I respond and hope it is clearly said from the heart, and not simply a “shooting off the mouth” which helps no one.

Thank you my friend, for your input.

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 17 2011,14:05)

[/quote] Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 16 2011,08:13) God promised Jesus glory, before the world was created; Where did you read that?  What I have read has Jesus asking his God to glorify him with the glory “I HAD ALONGSIDE YOU BEFORE THE WORLD EXISTED”.

o.k. That's a fair question. It is actually not a vers I read, so much as a conclusion I reached from several verses. I will give you the verses and put it together as I understand it, and you draw your own conclusion.

“Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high” [Isa 52:13]

“Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” [Heb 12:1]

“And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.  9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” [Phil 2:8-11]

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You must think Jesus had glory alongside God as a DNA before the world, and therefore Adam, even existed?

Why do you put a question mark after an imperative sentence?  

I think Jesus had glory in prospect as prophecy.

Quote

It's hard to play “interpretation games” with John 17:5, because Jesus CLEARLY says that HE HIMSELF HAD this glory already before the world existed.  He most definitely doesn't say “the glory YOU PROMISED ME before the world existed”, right?

Jesus references one of several things that took place prior to creation. God promised Jesus glory, before the world was created; God hid his wisdom for our glory before he created the world; We were chosen in Christ before God created the world; We were given by God, works to perform, before he created the world; We were given purpose and grace in Christ, before God created the world; We were given the promise of eternal life before God created the world; Jesus was foreordained to be the sacrificial lamb before the foundation of the world; God loved Jesus before the foundation of the world. All these things were already set to happen, before the world was even begun in creation.

1 Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie,
promised before the world began;

1Pet 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb
without blemish and without spot:
1Pet 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

many things were in promise before creation began.

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 16 2011,08:13)

Jesus was foreordained to be the sacrificial lamb before the foundation of the world;

“Foreordained” does not mean “already happened”.  This is where you and I differ in our understandings.  You take the prophesies as if they have LITERALLY already happened, I don't.  Is 9:6 speaks of a child who HAS BEEN BORN.  But Jesus wasn't LITRALLY born until 700 years later.[/quote]

“and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.”

I don't think this is a child who has been born.

Quote

Just because God can traverse through time and speak of future things from a “happened in the past” perspective does not mean those things have actually happened from OUR POINT OF VIEW. When God speaks of the seed of Eve, it doesn't mean Jesus started “EXISTING” as a living being within Eve's DNA right then.  It only means that sometime in the future, a Messiah will be born FROM her seed – if you take that scripture to be a Messianic prophecy in the first place.  And Jesus was born from her seed…………ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.

See Mike, you said the same thing. “Jesus was born from her seed.” You did not say Jesus was born from the seed of her descendant.” You agree with me, Jesus was born from her seed.

[Paladin]

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 17 2011,15:08)

Paladin I like your presentation well done ,but my knowledge of scriptures tell me that God is the same and your presentation does not include a major event the floodand the reason for it. also about Christ;1Co 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation Jn 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. Jn 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. and others, so your story does not say that Christ came from above ,why?? Pierre

Part-1
I will begin my response to this one next. I must rest for awhile. And do Looooo.o.o.ts of homework.

[GeneBalthrop]

Paladin………..you have presented it right and accurately Keep up the good work. Maybe some here will begin to understand and become more sound in the true Faith. I know it is hard and does take a lot of time to expound these things clearly but i do believe it is worth it brother. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………….gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 17 2011,15:12)

I think Jesus had glory in prospect as prophecy.

Does what you think fit the scripture?  Jesus asks to be glorified with the [same] glory he had before the world.

First of all, your understanding means that Jesus was asking for the glory of a “prophetic prospect”.  Was he saying he wanted to go back to being a DNA who is foreordained for some future glory?  

Secondly, your understanding does not compute with the very words Jesus spoke, which were “the glory……..I HAD…………ALONGSIDE YOU………..BEFORE THE WORLD EXISTED.

1.  The PERSON of Jesus apparently had this glory, for it is the PERSON of Jesus saying “I HAD”.

2.  The PERSON of Jesus was ALONGSIDE GOD when HE HAD this glory.  

3.   The PERSON of Jesus was ALONGSIDE GOD, and HE HAD glory, BEFORE THE WORLD EVEN EXISTED.

What happened was that Jesus asked for his former glory back, and God exalted him even higher than that.

Paladin, you can pretend the words of scripture say whatever forms around YOUR OWN understanding.  I see it on this site all the time.  But if you can't solidly explain why Jesus said “the glory I HAD at your side” instead of “the glory that was promised to me at your side” , then you are rewriting the words of scripture to fit your own understanding.

Taken exactly as they are, the words of Jesus very clearly teach us that HE HAD glory ALONGSIDE his God BEFORE THE WORLD EXISTED.  Those are the words Jesus spoke.  I take them as they were spoken.  I have no need to come up with strange new alternate meanings for these words, because they are very clear to start with.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 17 2011,14:05)

Is 9:6 speaks of a child who HAS BEEN BORN.  But Jesus wasn't LITRALLY born until 700 years later.

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 17 2011,15:12)

“and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.” I don't think this is a child who has been born.

Was that “slight of hand”?  You purposely avoided the part of the scripture I asked you about………….why?

NRSV  For a child has been born for us,

NET © For a child has been born to us,

NIV ©
For to us a child is born,

NKJV ©
For unto us a Child is born,

From NETNotes:  The Hebrew perfect (translated “has been born” and “has been given”) is used here as the prophet takes a rhetorical stance in the future age and describes future events as if they have already occurred.

NOW does it sound like a child that has been born?

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 17 2011,15:12)

See Mike, you said the same thing. “Jesus was born from her seed.” You did not say Jesus was born from the seed of her descendant.” You agree with me, Jesus was born from her seed.

Paladin, everyone who was ever human came from the seed of Eve.  As I understand it, you are trying to say Jesus began existing from the day Eve was tempted by Satan.  I don't even consider Gen 3:15 to be a Messianic prophecy in the first place, but even if it is, you have nothing in scripture to imply Jesus began to exist at that point.

What you have is strange logic claiming that a DNA is an incarnate person who exists.  And that strange logic ignores many clear scriptures, one of which is John 17:5.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 17 2011,12:29)

That's o.k. for you to say that Mike as long as you remember, the Devil thinks like you do, so it really has no power does it? (Remember, “Thou believest God is one, the devils believe, and tremble”)

Paladin,

I'm NOT a Trinitarian, remember?

[Paladin]

PART – I

terraricca,Mar. wrote:

[/quote]

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Paladin – your presentation does not include a major event, the flood, and the reason for it.

When God created heaven and earth, he made both to be inhabited, but by very different types of creatures. One creature, the first he created, were called “Elohim,”[Psa 8:5] and were spirits, clothed in a garment called “oikeeteerion.”[Jude 6]

If you picture heaven as an auditorium, in which angelic spectators watch, and earth as a stage upon which players act out life's pageants, referenced by Paul “To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth…,”[Eph 3:10-11,15]

And by Peter who referenced the works of the prophets concerning the affairs ofmen, “…which things the angels desire to look into.”

Flesh is moist, consisting of a high percentage of water, and after demons once experience the feelings that come with flesh, they become addicted to the ability to move and feel the movement in muscle tissue, and in glands and organs; all that goes into making flesh alive. And they experience temptations of the flesh, and get the same “high” humans get, and the same fear animals get when hunted, or the power they feel when hunting.

These creatures had no sense-feeling, because they were not creatures familiar with flesh and all that pertains thereunto. Some later became fallen angels known as “demons” or “devils” or “evil spirits” who wandered the earth seeking flesh to inhabit. Mathew tells us “And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? 30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. 31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. 32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.” [Mat 8:28-32]

“When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.” [Mat 12:43]

As a result of observation and pondering, some of these angelic spirit creatures actually left God's presence to experience this thing called “flesh” for themselves. The most serious consequence of this action, that was of concern to them at the time, was that they were clothed in “oikeeteerion” which preserved their life, so that they could not experience all the experiences to which men were accustomed, including the ageing proccess, sickness, and death. So, according to Jude, they abandoned their clothing of oikeeteerion, and became subject to separation from the flesh which they now took upon themselves to experience.

Jude says that angels not only failed to maintain or keep rule over themselves (did not maintain self-control), they actively abandoned their oikeeteerion.

Jude 6 “And the angels which kept not (failed to maintain) their first estate, but left their own oikeeteerion [habitation], he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

So, these angels abandoned the safety of their proper clothing, and put on mortality, married women, begat children, and began a life of debauchery unhjlike anything man had seen before. I think this is the source of the old Gods of ancient civilizations; angels comingling with women, begetting a race of giants.  – “And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.” [Gen 6:1-2]

It reminds me of the old myths and legends of Gods coming down from mountain tops and marrying women with whom they begot children of great strengh and renown. “There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” [Gen 6:4-5]

Since God had already designed his plan of salvation, Messiah, the son of God son of man, Satan's family of rebellious angels were counterfeiting God's plan for Messiah, son of God among men. God could not let it continue, a travesty of enormous consequence.

But, since the angelic spirits could not be killed, and the humans involved could not survive, he did the only thing he could do to separate the two different types of creation, and caused a great flood upon the earth, separating the men by death, and the spirits by the great flood of waters. Remember, the flesh of men were hosts, not guests, and the spirits were guests, not hosts, so the two were at a decided disadvantage when it came to the flood. They could not remain together if one was subject to death, and the other required the effect of flesh from addiction.

“And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.” [Gen 6:6-8,11-13,17]

Peter tells us what happened to those angels who were disobedient –
“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”

And again – “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;” [II Pet 2:4-5]

Though God created Adam in flesh, it was never his intention that flesh and blood would inherit a kingdom intended for spiritual inhabitants. Indeed, he stands ready to exchange our clothing of flesh and mortality for an eternal clothing of incorruption and immortality. [II Cor 5:1-4]

I Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

With Christ as our high priest, and we being in Christ, a priesthood , God expects us to crucify our flesh in living sacrifi
ce with Christ [Gal 2:20][Rom 12:1-2] So that as Christ in the world we may present ourselves justified by the blood of the crucified Christ, by our faith therein, by the grace of the God who designed the plan, the logos.

I Cor 15:42 “It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption;
        43 “It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory;
            It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power;
        44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

I Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

I Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

II Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

II Cor 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

II Cor 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

II Cor 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

It was always God's plan to provide a “way of escape” for flesh, so his creation could be justified from a spiritual perspective rather than from a fleshly one, “For in thy sight shall no man living be justified.” [Psa 143:2]

For man to be clothed with oikeeteerion REQUIRES more than original creation by which he was “clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life [II Cor 5:1-2]; it requires in fact, first, a “putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” [Col 2:11]; and we are counted as circumcised with Christ, who are baptized into Christ, wherein we also rise with him. [Col 2:12]

Jesus was the first man raised from the dead; the first to “Put on immortality;” The first to “Put on incorruption; the first fruit of them that slept ; the first born from the dead [Col 1:18]; firstborn among many brethren [Rom 8:29]; and therefore was the first man to both die and not see corruption, and the first man to put on the oikeeteerion which is from heaven, and which is worn by the elohiym.

Paul tells us we who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ [Gal 3:27] and if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection [Rom 6:5]; which we attain in baptism [Rom 6:3-4]; it remains for us to so live that it is no longer I that lives, but Christ living in me [Gal 2:20]. Any man in Christ is a “new creature.” [II Cor 5:17]

Just as God put Adam and Eve out of the garden because of the proximity of the tree of life, to keep them from eating therefrom and living forever, so also he flooded the earth to keep those countefeit children of the Gods from populating the earth.

The problem that arose, if he had not destroyed the counterfeits, is that the angels who disobeyed, would not have been punished, but as the men died out, the angels would have continued on, perhaps recycling to rebel again and return to the earth once more, in a never ending cycle.

But God's justice demanded that the rebellion be punished, but he couldn't punish the angels without destroying the men. So he put them all away from his sight with a flood; thus preserving his own plan for Messiah, son of man, son of God.

[Paladin]

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 17 2011,15:08)

PART – II

Quote

Paladin – also about Christ;1Co 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven so your story does not say that Christ came from above ,why?? Pierre

Three things under consideration here, my friend.

1st) Paul establishes for all time, the fact that Adam predates Jesus – “And so it is written, The first [anthropos] man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.47 The first [anthropos] man is of the earth, earthy: the second [anthropos] man is the Lord from heaven.”

{NOTE: Anthropos is the Greek word for “man.” Paul here tells us that the second Adam is a man just like the first Adam. And 2nd, he tells us the first man is the natural one, followed by the second Adam, the “made spiritual” man.

3rd, Jesus several times tells the Jews “I came down from heaven” and it has been quoted millions of times as a proof text jesus was pre-existent in heaven; which denies Paul's statement that the second Adam is anthropos. There were no “anthropos” in heaven prior to creation; no “flesh and blood” which cannot inherit heaven.

so, it then becomes a question as to what is the signifiance of the statement Jesus repeated several times;

“There was a man sent from God” does not mean a man was in God's presence in heaven, to be “sent from God.”

It does not require one to be in heaven to come down from heaven. All it requires is for God, who is in heaven, to be the author of the concept, though it takes place on earth, it is “come down from heaven.” “The baptism of John, whence was it? FROM HEAVEN, OR OF MEN? [Mat 21:25]

IT WAS ALWAYS A QUESTION OF AUTHORITY

Jesus told the Pharisees: “And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.” [John 8:23]

But he said of his disciples: “I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because THEY ARE NOT OF THE WORLD, (ARE YOU READY FOR THIS?) EVEN AS I AM NOT OF THE WORLD. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.” [John 17:14-16]

So if the disciples are “not of this world” EVEN AS Jesus is “not of this world, then being “not of this world” has nothing to do with one's origins, but rather describes ones present circumstances, OR it is a reference to one's authority.

Which leads us to another oft misapplied quote from scripture; “From heaven.”

What is the reference mean, to be “from heaven?”

“BY WHAT AUTHORITY” – IT WAS ALWAYS ABOUT “AUTHORITY.”
“And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? 24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism of John, whence was it? FROM HEAVEN, or OF MEN? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? 26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. 27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.”[Mat 21:23-27][Mark 11:27-33][Luke 20:1-8]

“And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders, 28 And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things? 29 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. 30 The baptism of John, was it FROM HEAVEN, or OF MEN? answer me. 31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him? 32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed. 33 And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.” [Mark 11:27-33]

“And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders, 2 And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority? 3 And he answered and said unto them, I will also ask you one thing; and answer me: 4 The baptism of John, was it FROM HEAVEN, or OF MEN? 5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not? 6 But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet. 7 And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was. 8 And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.” [Luke 20:1-8]

TRINITARIAN PROOF TEXT
John 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

ARGUMENT: Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words “I am” mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.

PALADIN'S RESPONSE: so if one says “I am going to town” he really means “I exist going to town?” And if he says “I am not going to town” does he mean “I do not exist going to town” or does he mean “I exist not going to town?”

It is a silly argument, and means nothing because no one ever says just the two words “I am.” It means there is something in which this person is involved in, in some way.

“I am” means “since I exist, there are involvments to be considered.”

NO ONE says “I AM” unless there is more information understood from what has already been said.

If Jesus is God because he said “I am” Then Peter is God because Peter said “I am he whom ye seek” quoting not one but two old testament propecies.

It is a fallacious argument.

TRINITARIAN PROOF TEXT:
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

AGRUMENT
The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

PALADIN'S RESPONSE: “According as he hath chosen US in him before the foundation of the world” clearly shows that WE were pre-existent before the world was founded, by THAT standard.

“Which was given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN” clearly shows that we pre-existed, by that same standard.

TRINITARIAN PROOF TEXT:
John 3:12-15 “I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.”

PALADIN'S RESPONSE: Nehushtan – was it from heaven or from earth? How did a serpent of brass bite people and kill them? It was not of earth, my friend, it was from heaven

J
ust as the Israelites had to believe that heaven is the authority for that serpent, so must men believe heaven is the authority for the son of God.

REMEMBER – Jesus told the Pharisees: “And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.” [John 8:23]

Twice Jesus says the disciples are “NOT OF THE WORLD.”
But he said of his disciples: “I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because THEY ARE NOT OF THE WORLD, (ARE YOU READY FOR THIS?) EVEN AS I AM NOT OF THE WORLD. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, EVEN AS I am not of the world.” [John 17:14-16]

IT IS ALWAYS ABOUT AUTHORITY, NOT ORIGIN.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 18 2011,21:57)

IT WAS ALWAYS A QUESTION OF AUTHORITY Jesus told the Pharisees: “And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.” [John 8:23] But he said of his disciples: “I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because THEY ARE NOT OF THE WORLD, (ARE YOU READY FOR THIS?) EVEN AS I AM NOT OF THE WORLD. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.” [John 17:14-16] So if the disciples are “not of this world” EVEN AS Jesus is “not of this world, then being “not of this world” has nothing to do with one's origins, but rather describes ones present circumstances, OR it is a reference to one's authority.

Paladin………I have brought this up before several times in the past years but they just do not get it. Jesus plainly showed his disciples were from above (even) as (the same way he was) not from the earth, but from above. You have it right there. Perhaps your explaining it will help some here, i hope so.

peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene

[Tim Kraft]

Is it possible that each time Jesus referred to “the world” he was referring to the “world order of that time” or the “religious world order” the “world order of the Jews”, the old religious way of the old covenant. I do not see that he is referring to the cosmos or universe.
In John chap.15-V18 Jesus makes referrence to…if the world hate you, it hated me before it hated me before you….v19..if ye were of the world….you are not of this world….I have chosen you out of this world…therefore the world hateth you….and so on to V25 when Jesus said….that the word might be fulfilled that is written in “their law”….they hated me without cause. The law was unto the Jews! Religiously speaking it was a Jewish run religious world order at that time! Neither Jesus nor his disciples nor we are of that old religious world. IMO, just a thought. Bless all, TK

[Paladin]

PART – III

Quote

Paladin I like your presentation well done ,but my knowledge of scriptures tell me that – “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation” [Col 1:15]

“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence” [Col 1:15-18] Paul is referencing the new creation.

Laying the foundation for the kingdom of heaven:
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Gospel of the kingdom:
Mat 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Laying the foundation for the new heavens and the new earth:
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom
of heaven.

Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after
righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Salt of the earth:
Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost
his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Light of the world:
Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Fulfillment of law:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

New standard for the kingdom:
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

New Standard Of Righteousness:
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

New Standard Of “Killing”
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

New standard for the Altar:
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

New approach to Adversaries:
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come, out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

New standard for morality:
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

New evaluation of “Me”
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

New standard for divorce:
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

New standard of communication:
Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

New standard for vengeance:
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

New evaluation for love:
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

New standard of perfection:
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

New method for almsgiving:
Mat 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their
reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy
Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

New method for prayer:
Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as
the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

new standard for prayer:
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

New reason for forgiveness:
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

New standard for fasting::
Mat 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; 18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in
secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

New definition for treasure:
Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

New prescription for “seeing”
Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

New limitation for serving God:
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

New evaluation of daily concerns:
Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? 26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? 27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 28 And why take ye thought
for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 For after all these things do the Gentiles seek: for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

New standard for judging:
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou
hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

New appreciation of values:
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

New communication system:
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give
good things to them that ask him?

New standard of rule:
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

New direction for living:
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

New standard of discernment for doctrine:
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the
fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

New evaluation of production:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

New evaluation of hearing:
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came,
and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

New authority for teaching:
Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

New standard of humility:
John 13:4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poureth water into
a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. 6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? 7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou
shalt know hereafter. 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.

12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? 13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

Phil 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any
comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no
reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

New measure of growth:
2Pet 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith
virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

New weapons of warfare:
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of
the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the [reema] word of God:

New identity for life:
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

When Jesus declared “Lo, I come to do thy will O God,” the first testament, composed of ordinances, was ready to be replaced; Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings,  and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Jesus, by his sacrifice, fulfilled the law, and set it aside, making room for the second: Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

And by so doing, conquered the powers of the heavens; and just as kings of old would march their vanquished foe in chains, in a victory march, so also Christ “made a shew” of his triumph over them. Col 2:15
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

When God raised Christ to his own right hand, he took us with him: Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved; 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Which gives us courage to approach the throne of grace:
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

This constitutes the “new heaven,” where the saints tread in
righteousness, in the resurrected Christ, who is now second only to the Father; Wherein we have access to the Father, and whereby we may be strengthened by his spirit – and be filled with all the fulness of God: Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;17
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

[Paladin]

(SF)

Quote

Im assuming (breaking my own rule) in my second statement that you are reffereing to Jesus, (though i dont believe him to be solely a man) Which is why i questioned it in my first.

I also do not believe Jesus is “just a man;” neither do I believe he is “God equal with God.”

Since he was begotten of the Holy spirit [Mat 1:20] and “that which is begotten of the spirit is spirit” [John 3:6] how can any man say Jesus is “only a man?” But, just as those offspring of God's sons and daughters of men were called
“men” [Gen 6] and not “Gods” so also Jesus is called “man” and not “God.”

And though God speaks of resurrected Jesus with titles previously devoted solely to God himself, it does not mean Jesus is God equal to God. It means he is now Elohim (immortal); and Adown [Lord], and El [Mighty one].

(SF)

Quote

What man are you reffering to since Jesus is not just a Man, and John 1:1 context is about Jesus who is the Topic of the whole gospel.

Because John 1:1 is not about Jesus, but is about “ho logos” which is personified in every saint who yields his life to Christ so that it is no longer they that live, but Christ lives in them, the logos of God is personified agian, and will each time unto perpetuity.

(SF)

Quote

I believe that Jesus was in the beginning and is God because the bible say so.

Well, produce the verse that says so, or the verses that teach the concept.

(SF)

Quote

I do have  a verse that states that 1.) Jesus was in the begining and 2) Is called God, and the image of God several times and is ONE with God.

Oh, my friend, I have all of that. I know Jesus was at the beginning. I just disagree as to what beginning he is talking about. “But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.” [John 16:4] Here, Jesus is talking about the beginning of the gospel, which John is also referencing in 1:1.

(SF)

Quote

I can also use what Paul says to prove my point. 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Look, clearly the bible doesnt speak as the day that Jesus was born as the “beginning” of his existence.  So what Day is this?

Excuse me! Which verse of Phil 2 are you saying references
“day?”

Actually the bible even tells us “And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age,” [Luke 3:23]; And I suppose I know that there are many “beginnings” spoken of in the gospels, all of which are identified by modifiers, as to what they are referencing. When John uses the term, he is talking about the beginning of the gospel unless he tells us otherwise by using modifiers. And he used no modifiers in John 1:1. He did in John 16:4

(SF)

Quote

Thats not the point.  My question again is legit, based on the reasoning that the Writers did not have the same terminology as we did or unless you can prove otherwise.

That's why we spend so much time learning their terminology.

And your question was not legitimate because I had already posted the connection between Psalm 2:7 and Acts 13, which you jumped over to ignore. Then asked me to “Also check this out” and remarked “You should read the context of this day my friend,” which obviously I had already done.

(SF)

Quote

By what Rule or by what warrent can Love not Be God?

Fair question. “Love” and “God” are not convertible terms, that's why. In the Greek, if you have referenced two nouns, one with the definite article, and the other without it, they are not convertible terms, are not interchangeable, cannot be switched in the identity. One is articulated, the other is not.

Let me see if I can explain it –  
The Greek says “The God is love.” But it is not saying that all of God is all of love. “The fruit of the spirit is love” would be saying God is a fruit of the spirit of God. That's nonsense. So is “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”

In other words, “Love” is not all there is to being God, and not all love is God.You can love jelly donuts, or your favorite magazine, but that is not God being expressed.

(SF)

Quote

Or the Word NOT be God?

If “ho logos” is interchangeable with “Theos” then when “ho logos” became flesh, all of God became flesh. This was one of the early heresies. You would have the Father became flesh; the son became flesh; the Holy Spirit became flesh. That is why it cannot be converted, exchanged, or equalized.

(SF)

Quote

or even add flesh, why can the flesh not be the word?

Because there is more than one flesh. “1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.”

John did not say “the logos became man.” That would be  
“aneer” or “anthropos.” John said “sarx.” And the reason John used “Sarx” instead of “anthropos” is so men would not try to say the logos became a particular man.

(P)

Quote

Then you missed the point of my use of Isaiah. I showed you that Isaiah used singular nouns and also used “monos” and explained its significance. You cannot just take the part you agree with and ignore the rest of it and think you have answered the question. You have actually evaded the question. (SF)Talk about being evasive… I asked you two questions and you totally avoided it. Nevertheless ill answer yours. I didnt avoid anything but because of your own ignorance in my beliefs you dont understand how I totally agree with Isaiah a ccount of creation (which by the way is only ONE verse) Let me explain.  You mentioned elohim as singular and “monos” as alone.  IMO I totally agree that God created alone because I believe that Jesus IS God is one entity or one being. In other words I dont believe that God or Jesus are seperate being but one and the same, which means this fullfills Isaiah account that God (singular) infact created (alone).

Well, you see SF, you have just defended something I did not say. I did not mention “Elohim as singular” because Elohim is Hebrew and plural; and I was working in the Greek, and did say “Theos is singular.” And you do not agree with a single-person version of God.

Did I fail to point out that “first-person-singular” means how many persons are involved? Nope! I just rechecked the post and it's in there. Maybe you did not understand the significance of it. It states that there is only one person who is God. And that, you do not believe, and it is your words I use here, not my own opinion.

I will respond to one more of your errors, and rest awhile

(SF) Actually the Greak Doesnt express “whether they be”
So the limiting paramerters is a myth, or your imagination.
ειτε(1535)
Pronunciation: i'-teh
1) if … if 2) whether … or
In other words that “little phrase” doesnt really exist, and only by translation that it does.

So i wouldnt make a whole doctrine based on a little phrase.
Also the context differs with you.

There are 140 references to “whether” in the bible, and in every case, it is a reference to a choice of one thing or the other thing, never both, and never neither. One or the other.

140 references

Gen 18:21; 24:21; 27:21; 31:39; 37:14,32; 42:16; 43:6
Exo 4:18; 12:19; 16:4; 19:13; 21:31; 22:4,8,9; 34:19
Lev 3:1; 5:1,2; 7:26; 11:32,35; 13:47,48,52,55; 15:3; 6:29; 17:15; 18:9; 22:28; 27:12,14,26,30,33
Num 9:21,22; 11:23; 13:18,19,20; 15:30; 18:15
Deut 4:32; 8:2; 13:3; 18:3; 22:6;  24:14
Joshua 24:15
Jdgs 2:22; 3:4; 9:2; 18:5
2 Sam 12:22; 15:21
1 Kings 20:18,33
2 Kings 1:2
2 Chron 14:11; 15:13
Ezra 2:59; 5:17; 7:26
Neh 7:61
Esther 3:4; 4:11,14
Job 34:29, 33;Job 37:13
Prov 20:11; 29:9
Eccl 2:19; 5:12; 11:6; 12:14
Song 6:11; 7:12
Jer 30:6; 42:6
Ezek 2:5,7; 3:11; 44:31

Mat 9:5; 21:31; 23:17,19; 26:63; 27:21,49
Mark 2:9; 3:2; 15:36; 15:44
Luke 3:15; 5:23; 6:7; 14:28,31; 22:27; 23:6
John 7:17; 9:25
Acts 1:24; 4:19; 5:8; 9:2; 10:18; 17:11; 19:2; 25:20
Rom 6:16; 12:6; 14:8
1 Cor 1:16; 3:22; 7:16; 8:5; 10:31; 12:13,26; 13:8; 14:7; 15:11

2 Cor 1:6; 2:9; 5:9,10,13; 8:23; 12:2,3; 13:5
Eph 6:8
Phil 1:18; 1:20,27
Col 1:16,20
1 Thes 5:10
2 Thes 2:15
1 Peter 2:13
1 John 4:1

I never consider a word study complete by researching one verse. Even when there is only one reference to a word being used, there are always considerations to be researched that goes beyond the one use of one word.

I am cutting the rest out because it is getting too long for me to work with.

Thank you for the interest.

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2011,14:02)

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 17 2011,12:29) That's o.k. for you to say that Mike as long as you remember, the Devil thinks like you do, so it really has no power does it? (Remember, “Thou believest God is one, the devils believe, and tremble”) Paladin, I'm NOT a Trinitarian, remember?

Sure, as long as you remember I am not a Pharisee.

[Wispring]

To Paladin,
Your elucidation of the words “in the beginning” has really cleared up alot things for me. The bible as a cohesive whole is starting to make much more rational sense to me now. Thank you. I trusted the bible for the most part in blind faith(excepting the words of Jesus Christ because my soul knew he spoke truth)before, now the scales are starting to drop from my eyes. Most likely not all of them, but, a few in any case. I would like to Jesus and God for this, and of course, yourself for this. So…hey, thanks.
===================================================================

New standard of rule:
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

This could also be called a new standard of social behaviour imho. It truly wasn't new when Jesus taught it. google “The golden rule” to become more educated on this ethic of reciprocity. Or not…only you can decide how well you wish to be educated about things.
===================================================================
New standard for the Altar:
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Just my humble opion here. When I first read this verse I understood it to mean that I should first reconcile my differences with my brother(people) so that I would truly have something righteous to be thankful for. The very same being my reconciliation with my brothers.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

[Baker]

Paladin!  I see you are interpreting Scriptures to your view.  So when Jesus said the He came from Heaven to do the will of His Father it does not say so?  And when Scriptures say that He was the firstborn of all creation, it is not so?  
Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:  

Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  
Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.  

Jesus was not only the firstborn of all creation, He was also the firstborn of the death.  So He may have preeminence, meaning He was first in all.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence  

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;  

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  

Jhn 1:2   The same was in the beginning with God.  

Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  
Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  
Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  
Rev 19:16   And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.  

If there wouldn't be Rev. 19 then I could say maybe you could be right denying this.  But Rev. makes it clear it is Jesus The Word of God.  All titles…Both John 1;1 and Rev. 19…..He is the Spoken Word of God, because nobody has seen Almighty God or heard His voice.  

Jhn 5:37   And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.  

Jhn 6:40   And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.  

Jhn 8:57   Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?  

Jhn 8:58   Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.  

I believe what Jesus told us…Not what any men do……

And what glory does Jesus have now?  Is He not a Spirit being now, after His resurrection, He asked this

Jhn 17:4   I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.  
Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.  

Peace Irene

[terraricca]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 19 2011,04:57)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 17 2011,15:08) PART – II Quote Paladin – also about Christ;1Co 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven so your story does not say that Christ came from above ,why?? Pierre Three things under consideration here, my friend. 1st) Paul establishes for all time, the fact that Adam predates Jesus – “And so it is written, The first [anthropos] man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.47 The first [anthropos] man is of the earth, earthy: the second [anthropos] man is the Lord from heaven.” {NOTE: Anthropos is the Greek word for “man.” Paul here tells us that the second Adam is a man just like the first Adam. And 2nd, he tells us the first man is the natural one, followed by the second Adam, the “made spiritual” man. 3rd, Jesus several times tells the Jews “I came down from heaven” and it has been quoted millions of times as a proof text jesus was pre-existent in heaven; which denies Paul's statement that the second Adam is anthropos. There were no “anthropos” in heaven prior to creation; no “flesh and blood” which cannot inherit heaven. so, it then becomes a question as to what is the signifiance of the statement Jesus repeated several times; “There was a man sent from God” does not mean a man was in God's presence in heaven, to be “sent from God.” It does not require one to be in heaven to come down from heaven. All it requires is for God, who is in heaven, to be the author of the concept, though it takes place on earth, it is “come down from heaven.” “The baptism of John, whence was it? FROM HEAVEN, OR OF MEN? [Mat 21:25] IT WAS ALWAYS A QUESTION OF AUTHORITY Jesus told the Pharisees: “And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.” [John 8:23] But he said of his disciples: “I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because THEY ARE NOT OF THE WORLD, (ARE YOU READY FOR THIS?) EVEN AS I AM NOT OF THE WORLD. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.” [John 17:14-16] So if the disciples are “not of this world” EVEN AS Jesus is “not of this world, then being “not of this world” has nothing to do with one's origins, but rather describes ones present circumstances, OR it is a reference to one's authority. Which leads us to another oft misapplied quote from scripture;  “From heaven.” What is the reference mean, to be “from heaven?” “BY WHAT AUTHORITY” – IT WAS ALWAYS ABOUT “AUTHORITY.” “And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? 24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism of John, whence was it? FROM HEAVEN, or OF MEN? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? 26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. 27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.”[Mat 21:23-27][Mark 11:27-33][Luke 20:1-8] “And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders, 28 And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things? 29 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. 30 The baptism of John, was it FROM HEAVEN, or OF MEN? answer me. 31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him? 32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed. 33 And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.” [Mark 11:27-33] “And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders, 2 And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority? 3 And he answered and said unto them, I will also ask you one thing; and answer me: 4 The baptism of John, was it FROM HEAVEN, or OF MEN? 5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not? 6 But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet. 7 And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was. 8 And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.” [Luke 20:1-8] TRINITARIAN PROOF TEXT John 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” ARGUMENT: Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words “I am” mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham. PALADIN'S RESPONSE: so if one says “I am going to town” he really means “I exist going to town?” And if he says “I am not going to town” does he mean “I do not exist going to town” or does he mean “I exist not going to town?” It is a silly argument, and means nothing because no one ever says just the two words “I am.” It means there is something in which this person is involved in, in some way. “I am” means “since I exist, there are involvments to be considered.” NO ONE says “I AM” unless there is more information understood from what has already been said. If Jesus is God because he said “I am” Then Peter is God because Peter said “I am he whom ye seek” quoting not one but two old testament propecies. It is a fallacious argument. TRINITARIAN PROOF TEXT: John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. AGRUMENT The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven. PALADIN'S RESPONSE: “According as he hath chosen US in him before the foundation of the world” clearly shows that WE were pre-existent before the world was founded, by THAT standard. “Which was given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN” clearly shows that we pre-existed, by that same standard. TRINITARIAN PROOF TEXT: John 3:12-15 “I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.” PALADIN'S RESPONSE: Nehushtan – was it from heaven or from earth? How did a serpent of brass bite people and kill them? It was not of earth, my friend, it was from heaven Just as the Israelites had to believe that heaven is the authority for that serpent, so must men believe heaven is the authority for the son of God. REMEMBER – Jesus told the Pharisees: “And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.” [John 8:23] Twice Jesus says the disciples are “NOT OF THE WORLD.” But he said of his disciples: “I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because THEY ARE NOT OF THE WORLD, (ARE YOU READY FOR THIS?) EVEN AS I AM NOT OF THE WORLD. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, EVEN AS I am not of the world.” [John 17:14-16] IT IS ALWAYS ABOUT AUTHORITY, NOT ORIGIN.

Paladin

I thank you for the effort you have placed in given this info,and I will look in to it very carefully,

at first look it seems that you center your view on Paul letter in Cori; what I have presented to you ,

Quote

1st) Paul establishes for all time, the fact that Adam predates Jesus – “And so it is written, The first [anthropos] man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.47 The first [anthropos] man is of the earth, earthy: the second [anthropos] man is the Lord from heaven.”

but Paul also talked about there condition one was made from dust but not the other,
1Co 15:46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

so it is difficult by this and accept what you say,Christ was not the first Prophet and in my understanding from your quote,it seems that Christ is a man with a great spirituality,

but in this case what is the difference with the other prophets??
why did he become son of God and no other ?
why did Jesus at 12 years old knew his father was God?
why all prophesies are accomplish in him?

so for now i wait for your answers

God bless my friend

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Pierre,

Did you actually quote somebody and do it right?!? So you CAN teach old dogs new tricks!

Good scriptural answers to Adam being “before Christ”.

peace and love,
mike

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