Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[mikeboll64]

Hi Gene,

Barnes does see things your way, not only in Is 11:1, but also in verse 10, along with Rev 5:5 and 22:16.

But Clarke says:
Christ was the root of David as to his Divine nature; he was a branch out of the stem of Jesse as to his human nature.

And Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary says:
Root of David-(Isa 11:1, 10). Not merely “a sucker come up from David's ancient root” (as Alford limits it), but also including the idea of His being Himself the root and origin of David: compare these two truths brought together, Mt 22:42-45. Hence He is called not merely Son of David, but also David. He is at once “the branch” of David, and “the root” of David………

Gene, the last part that I bolded is what I tried before to explain to Paladin.  If “Root of David” meant “offspring”, then there was no need for Jesus to say “I am the Root AND the Offspring of David”.  Can you see how that statement would be redundant?  It would be like Jesus saying, “I am the Son AND the Child of God”.  Or, “I am the Messiah AND the Christ of God”.  See what I mean?

Anyway, if you check the commentaries on Biblos.com, you'll find some scholars who see it your way, and others who see it my way.

I personally understand it the way I do simply because I don't think Jesus would have said, “I am the Offspring AND the Offspring of David”.  And that is basically what your understanding has him saying.

Okay, good discussion so far.  

So what's your next “Jesus couldn't possibly have pre-existed” scripture after Gen 3:15?

peace,
mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike…………No they are not redundant, because both words ” ROOT AND OFFSPRING” deal with two different aspects of the same thing, “roots”, deals with past prodigy of a family line and “offspring”, deals a specific individual of that linage. They are both relevant with regards to Jesus' linage and tie him to that family line and a specific individual in that line.

Mike my question to you is why would you even see it any different then that, is it because of a “PREDISPOSED” Position you have and therefore tend to force the text to Meet those positions? I believe it truely is Mike, we all tend to want scripture to say what we believe, but true scholarship is to disregard our belief system and go by the specific facts the scripture presents and that is not as easy as it seems because there have been much tampering of scriptures by translators who were Trinitarians and Preexistences and tend to slant the text to meet their own belief system, those translators were not as NEUTRAL in their translations  as some think they were. Just as you have found in you answer to me one see it one way another another way. I believe Barnes is more honest in his commentary, NO “MYSTERY RELIGION” tied to it, while the one you chose Clark has a trinitarian and Preexistent slant to his. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike………Paladin was right brother. He is a great asset here for us all. IMO

peace and love……………………………gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 18 2011,08:13)

Mike my question to you is why would you even see it any different then that, is it because of a “PREDISPOSED” Position you have and therefore tend to force the text to Meet those positions?

No, that would be YOU, Gene.    Read Matthew 22:42-45.  Why was Jesus trying to teach the Pharisees that the Messiah was NOT the son of David?  That is, in part, why I see it the way I do.  And your examples to exclude any redundancy didn't even make sense.  Perhaps you could swap “Root” with ONE word of your own choosing, and post the scripture to make Jesus be saying “The Offspring AND the Offspring” – without him actually saying that.  What ONE WORD will you choose for “Root”?

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 18 2011,08:13)

I believe Barnes is more honest in his commentary, NO “MYSTERY RELIGION” tied to it, while the one you chose Clark has a trinitarian and Preexistent slant to his.

Barnes is most definitely a Trinitarian, Gene.

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 18 2011,08:17)

Mike………Paladin was right brother. He is a great asset here for us all. IMO peace and love……………………………gene

Paladin has been wrong on every single issue I've challenged him about.  And he DISAGREES with YOU 50% of the time.  Gene, on THOSE things he disagrees with you about, he IS right!    

But I don't even know what you're talking about with this post.  Right about what?  

[Ed J]

Hi Mike,

I believe Gene means Paladin is right on his view of no preexistence.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[GeneBalthrop]

ED j……….Correct Paladin was right about that . Mike tries to confuse people by saying thing like. “that does not make sense”, when in fact it makes perfect sense , but because he is so brain washed into believing Jesus Preexisted His berth on earth and the fact that his house of cards would come crashing down if he even gave it a moment truthful thought and he would have to admit he was wrong, he can not even except any possibility of a different understanding of the ROOT and OFFSPRING thing. Fact is what Jesus said was exactly right He is of (or FROM) the ROOT and also the OFFSPRING of KING DAVID, He is from that family linage.

I Showed Him a clear explanation of Barnes about this it make PERFECT SENSE to anyone that is not brain locked into the preconceived Dogmas of preexistence. He ore any other Preexistences or Trinitarian has yet to show HOW this “MORPHED” experience took place OR any of Jesus “Preexistence activity that is recorded in any scripture. The whole incarnate doctrine is a false teaching at best. Jesus the First (TO BE) born into the Kingdom of GOD from “MANKIND” was a prophesied event thousand of year “BEFORE” it ever took Place, he no more existed then KING CYRUS did before his berth on this earth. He was in the Plan and Will of GOD the FATHER who calls things as they were before they ever come into existence. Jesus was and ONLY WAS a 100% Human Being nothing more and nothing less, who GOD the Father Perfected and raised as the FIRST of the HUMAN RACE, Jesus never said he had any past existence before his berth other in the plan and will of GOD. Show me One Scripture where Jesus ever said He existed as a GOD or Demigod, or Angel before his berth on this earth and then i might see thing a little differently. But to force the text to say what in fact iot is not say that is pure garbage. IMO

peace and love to you and yours ED j………………………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

MIke……………I could careless if Barnes is a trinitarian or not, His commit on what Jesus meant by Root and Offspring of King David was accurate. He showed clear cometary on that subject in my opinion. Yes even people who are Trinitarians and JW's and Preexistences as you, speak some truth at times. WJ and KJ do also , the Key is to see your way through all the other garbage they and you say and that takes a lot of “SOUND” spiritual understanding. IMO

peace and love………………………………gene

[Ed J]

Hi Gene,

I believe we along with Jesus all preexisted.
There are a number of Scriptures to indicate this.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 20 2011,09:23)

Hi Gene, I believe we along with Jesus all preexisted. There are a number of Scriptures to indicate this. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

Gene does not believe what Christ said ;
Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

gene does not believe in things from heaven,so he make Christ a false teacher and places him selves above Jesus the son of man,

Gene does not like when you do not believe what he believes ,
all scriptures have to be according to the gospel of GENE ,

he does not believe that Jesus came from heaven,

Pierre

[Paladin]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2011,07:21)

[/quote] Ed wrote: Hi Gene, I believe we along with Jesus all preexisted. There are a number of Scriptures to indicate this. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

Gene does not believe what Christ said ;
Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

gene does not believe in things from heaven,so he make Christ a false teacher and places him selves above Jesus the son of man,

Gene does not like when you do not believe what he believes ,
all scriptures have to be according to the gospel of GENE ,

he does not believe that Jesus came from heaven,

Pierre

So, tell me Pierre, do you believe brimstone is in heaven?

What about hail?

Floodwater?
I await your response.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 19 2011,08:46)

Mike tries to confuse people by saying thing like. “that does not make sense”, when in fact it makes perfect sense ,

So why didn't you come up with another word for “Root” like I asked?  For example, “I am the CHILD and the Offspring of David”.  Or “I am the DESCENDENT and the Offspring of David”.

See how it makes no sense for Jesus to say the SAME thing two times?

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 19 2011,08:46)

Fact is what Jesus said was exactly right He is of (or FROM) the ROOT and also the OFFSPRING of KING DAVID,

Gene, can't you see that your use of the words “AND ALSO” really have no place in that sentence?  Jesus can not be the Offspring AND ALSO the Offspring of David.  It simply makes no sense.  Can't you see that?  

Besides, Jesus does NOT say he is OF the Root, or FROM the Root of David, does he?  I thought you were going to work on your problem of adding your own words into the scriptures to make them say what you want them to say.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 19 2011,08:46)

I Showed Him a clear explanation of Barnes about this it make PERFECT SENSE…………

And I showed you an explanation from Jamiesson- Faucett that makes even more sense.  “Jesus is at once BOTH the Root AND the Offspring of David.”  Just like when it is said, “I am the Beginning AND the End”, “beginning” doesn't mean the same thing as “end”, does it?

You didn't comment on Matthew 22:42-45.  Why not?  Why was Jesus trying to teach the Pharisees that he is NOT the son of David in that passage?

mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike……..Root is linage of a family, offspring is the direct person of that linage. Just that simple no need for “MYSTERY RELIGIOUS” translations that make it different then what it really is saying. This also reminds me where you counter parts the Trinitarians say that Where Thomas said ” MY LORD (AND) MY GOD”, means Jesus was GOD. When in fact he was referencing the fact that GOD was present with Jesus. Not that Jesus was GOD. But their mind set prohibits them from seeing it any other way, much like yours is doing to you. Jesus is both the root (AND) offspring of KING DAVID, any way you wan to to Hack it , David is NOT the ROOT of JESUS but the other way around Jesus (IS) root (and) offspring (of) or (from) King Davis from the same family roots and a Direct linage of King David. IMO

peace and love……………………………………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 20 2011,02:23)

Hi Gene, I believe we along with Jesus all preexisted. There are a number of Scriptures to indicate this. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

ED J………..What did we “exist” as i have no memory of any preexistence at all. I know what you are referencing though , where it say “FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW HE ALSO PREDESTINED TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS DEAR SON. And a few similar scriptures, however you need to understand GOD calls thing into existence before they ever existed. When God predestines something to happen it will happen because he will bring it about by his power and might. If you preexisted your berth what were you and who were you?. What did you do in that preexistent state, perhaps you could shed some light on this for us Brother.

peace and love…………………………………………gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 20 2011,08:54)

Mike……..Root is linage of a family, offspring is the direct person of that linage. Just that simple no need for “MYSTERY RELIGIOUS” translations that make it different then what it really is saying. This also reminds me where you counter parts the Trinitarians say that Where Thomas said ” MY LORD (AND) MY GOD”, means Jesus was GOD. When in fact he was referencing the fact that GOD was present with Jesus. Not that Jesus was GOD. But their mind set prohibits them from seeing it any other way, much like yours is doing to you. Jesus is both the root (AND) offspring of KING DAVID, any way you wan to to Hack it , David is NOT the ROOT of JESUS but the other way around Jesus (IS) root (and) offspring (of) or (from) King Davis from the same family roots and a Direct linage of King David. IMO peace and love……………………………………gene

Hi Gene,

Please actually address the individual points of my post. For example, quote what I said, and then answer that point DIRECTLY.

Thanks,
mike

[GeneBalthrop]

MIke………….I and others have you simply are unable to comprehend what we are saying because of your predisposed mind set you seem unable to comprehend what we are saying. IMO

peace and love…………………………………gene

[mikeboll64]

I know Gene. And I think you could “help me” if you would only DIRECTLY and individually address the points I made, and show me where I'm seeing things wrong.

Thanks in advance for your help, brother

mike

[terraricca]

Paladin

Quote

Pierre So, tell me Pierre, do you believe brimstone is in heaven? What about hail? Floodwater? I await your response.

where did angel come from ?, or where the Law came from that Moses received ?,where is the soul of man comes from ?

where is all of creation comes from ?,where is God ?

where is Gabriel the angel from ? where his the house of God and Christ ? where is the house that Christ when to prepare for his apostles ?

I also would like that you respond to me

Pierre

[Paladin]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 21 2011,04:21)

Paladin Quote Pierre So, tell me Pierre, do you believe brimstone is in heaven? What about hail? Floodwater? I await your response. where did angel come from ?, or where the Law came from that Moses received ?,where is the soul of man comes from ? where is all of creation comes from ?,where is God ? where is Gabriel the angel from ? where his the house of God and Christ ? where is the house that Christ when to prepare for his apostles ? I also would like that you respond to me Pierre

That might be the way you are used to playing games Pierrem but I do not. You see, on my board, when I ask a question, I expect participants to participate, not usurp the board.

If you don't have an answer, it is because you see the trap you make for yourself.

Of you only want to cause confusion, keep asking your own questions instead of responding to the post.

I will not play the game.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 20 2011,16:40)

You see, on my board, when I ask a question, I expect participants to participate, not usurp the board. If you don't have an answer, it is because you see the trap you make for yourself. Of you only want to cause confusion, keep asking your own questions instead of responding to the post. I will not play the game.

Hello Kettle? Ya, this is the Pot. Guess what? YOU'RE BLACK!

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