Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 13 2011,23:06)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2011,22:00)

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 10 2011,01:20)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 08 2011,02:52)

Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2011,17:14)

Quote (Paladin @ July 30 2011,10:57)

Where do you go to find understanding about “Nehushtan” Ed? And where do you read of his final effect upon men?

Hi Paladin,

Huh?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Bump for Paladin

I'm trying to show you Ed, that you do nothave a working knowledge of the old testament if you know nothing of Nehushtan.

Paladin,

So Jesus on the cross is the bronze serpent on the pole that heals the venum of that serpent Satan. It certainly works as Jesus used that comparison.

As you and Ed both are aware, the people had to react to the serpent of brass. Just acknowledgeing its presence was insufficient to undo the effects of the serpent bites, which were killing people. The person bitten had to go to the center of the camp and gaze upon the serpent, thus fully acknowledging first, that it came from God, and second, that it served as an efficacious tool in the hands of God.

As you both are aware also, it became a source for idolatry to the offspring of those same Israelites, when they took that serpent of brass, gave it a name (Nehushtan) and considered
it an object of worship. They forgot the first-cause of its being and defiled what God had brought to pass.

So also, Christ was lifted up, so that all Christians are to approach to where the cross is, and lift up our eyes in faith, believing in the efficacious ability of the crucified Christ to effect our salvation; trusting in the resurrected Jesus as our example of fulfilled trust in that sacrifice and the redemptive work of God.

The Holy Spirit of God inspired the writers of old to introduce a concept, trust in a work of God (Nehushtan) in the redemptive proccess, and trust in the crucified Christ in the recemptive proccess.

” And as Moses lifted up the serpent (Nehushtan) in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”[Jn 3:14-16]

Hi Paladin,

Thank you for your insight! …I hope others will listen!
And yes, I was aware of everything you posted here.

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

August 14, 2011 at 2:09 am#255859

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 13 2011,23:20)

Paladin! You make it sound like that the cross is the object of our salvation, which it is not…..It is Jesus blood, the ransom of His life…..

Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

And by Faith in Jesus we are saved

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Peace and Love Irene

Hi Irene,

Paladin is right, people both worship the cross and also Jesus in the flesh; here are the Scripture…
Isaiah 45:20-22 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations:
they have no knowledge that set up the wood [†] of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath
told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.
Look unto me(יהוה האלהים), and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I God, and there is none else. (See Deut.4:15-16 & Rom.1:22-25)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

August 14, 2011 at 9:02 am#255873

Paladin

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 13 2011,07:37)

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 11 2011,22:52)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 10 2011,21:12)

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 10 2011,20:39)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 10 2011,08:03)

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 10 2011,06:20)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 08 2011,02:52)

Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2011,17:14)

Quote (Paladin @ July 30 2011,10:57)

Where do you go to find understanding about “Nehushtan” Ed? And where do you read of his final effect upon men?

Hi Paladin,

Huh?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Bump for Paladin

I'm trying to show you Ed, that you do nothave a working knowledge of the old testament if you know nothing of Nehushtan.

Hi Paladin,

I knew nothing of this word (Nehushtan) YOU have used here at h-net.
I have looked it up and I traced the usage of it to biblical passages
in Numbers 21:8-9; I have been familiar with these passages.

Are trying to imply some kind of ignorance on my part? <– Please explain what you are driving at if not ignorance?

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

You accuse me unfairly of trying to show my friend
“ignorant.”

What I am trying to show you my friend, is that to know and understand the new testament, you must make the connections between the two testments, and that connection is the one covenant that God made with
Abraham and his seed.

As for “ignorance,” Everyone has some. NO One knws everything, therefore, everyone has some ignorance about something. “Ignorance” is not a dirty word.

Nehushtan is joined to both testaments, but way too many people do not know how. I am trying to get you better acquainted with both. Is that a bad thing? Or are you more concerned with the perception in the minds of the posters on this board?

Hi Paladin,

Making others aware of this connection is indeed a noble cause.
And if you must use me to initiate this awareness, so be it.
But please don't assert that this connection alludes me.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

I asserted no such thin. I began with a question.

Questions are not assertions.

How does Nehushtan serve to connect the two testaments to the covenant?

Quote

But please don't assert that this connection alludes me.

Is this bluster, or do you know?

Hi Paladin,

Do you know… is not an assertion.

Or do you know …”IS” an assertion!
This implies that if you do not answer, you do not know.
Surely you can see that YOUR question (or do you know) IS AN ASSERTION!

Is this a test? …you really do believe the connection alludes me! …no?
Jesus death on the cross cures the fiery serpents bite, when we look to him.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

“You do know” is an assertion.

“Do you know?” is a question.

“Do you know? is a question,” is an assertion.

To assert is to make a statement. To interrogate, is to question.

That little question mark is a clue that it is not an assertion.

August 14, 2011 at 9:05 am#255874

Paladin

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 13 2011,23:20)

Paladin! You make it sound like that the cross is the object of our salvation, which it is not…..It is Jesus blood, the ransom of His life…..

Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

And by Faith in Jesus we are saved

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Peace and Love Irene

The object of our salvation? That would be our soul.

The means of our salvation? That would be the blood of Christ.

The cross upon which Jesus died? That would be the center of our focus.

August 14, 2011 at 9:07 am#255875

Paladin

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 14 2011,13:09)

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 13 2011,23:06)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2011,22:00)

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 10 2011,01:20)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 08 2011,02:52)

Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2011,17:14)

Quote (Paladin @ July 30 2011,10:57)

Where do you go to find understanding about “Nehushtan” Ed? And where do you read of his final effect upon men?

Hi Paladin,

Huh?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Bump for Paladin

I'm trying to show you Ed, that you do nothave a working knowledge of the old testament if you know nothing of Nehushtan.

Paladin,

So Jesus on the cross is the bronze serpent on the pole that heals the venum of that serpent Satan. It certainly works as Jesus used that comparison.

The Holy Spirit of God inspired the writers of old to introduce a concept, trust in a work of God (Nehushtan) in the redemptive proccess, and trust in the crucified Christ in the recemptive proccess.

Hi Paladin,

Thank you for your insight! …I hope others will listen!
And yes, I was aware of everything you posted here.

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

I knew that my friend. You are well versed in O.T.

I tried to use you to reach others. Sometimes it works, sometimes it requires collusion between two people. I try to avoid that.

August 14, 2011 at 9:45 am#255877

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 14 2011,20:07)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 14 2011,13:09)

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 13 2011,23:06)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2011,22:00)

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 10 2011,01:20)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 08 2011,02:52)

Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2011,17:14)

Quote (Paladin @ July 30 2011,10:57)

Where do you go to find understanding about “Nehushtan” Ed? And where do you read of his final effect upon men?

Hi Paladin,

Huh?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Bump for Paladin

I'm trying to show you Ed, that you do nothave a working knowledge of the old testament if you know nothing of Nehushtan.

Paladin,

So Jesus on the cross is the bronze serpent on the pole that heals the venum of that serpent Satan. It certainly works as Jesus used that comparison.

The Holy Spirit of God inspired the writers of old to introduce a concept, trust in a work of God (Nehushtan) in the redemptive proccess, and trust in the crucified Christ in the recemptive proccess.

Hi Paladin,

Thank you for your insight! …I hope others will listen!
And yes, I was aware of everything you posted here.

I knew that my friend. You are well versed in O.T.

I tried to use you to reach others. Sometimes it works, sometimes it requires collusion between two people. I try to avoid that.

Hi Paladin,

Glad you were able to use me! …no harm, no foul!

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

August 14, 2011 at 1:34 pm#255885

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 14 2011,13:09)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

ED j ……..Good post you are exactly right they worship the messenger and not the one who sent him, their focus is on Jesus more then GOD the FATHER. Those who do that have FALLEN INTO IDOLATRY. They move Jesus away from our Identity with him as a real Human Being who came into existence through his berth on this earth the exact same way we did. These are those who work to SEPARATE and move Jesus' identity away from us all, making him different then we are. Trinitarians as well as Preexistence are both in the same Boat, no difference they both do a work of separating Jesus from being a pure human Being, who had no advantage overs us except GOD the FATHER was With HIM and what GOD did for Jesus he can also do equally for us all We are joint Heirs and Brothers of His and childern of the living God and as GOD the FATHER raised Him from the Grave He can also raise us up also and put us with Jesus and give us eternal life also. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

August 14, 2011 at 1:38 pm#255887

Participant

Mike ……Still waiting on you response to my Jesse root thing, what give?, have you come to see something maybe you missed before brother. I hope So.

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………..gene

August 14, 2011 at 2:00 pm#255890

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 15 2011,00:34)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 14 2011,13:09)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

Hi Gene,

Gene, sorry to disagree with you: Jesus was not entirely like us but, after
we are born again, we become entirely like Jesus was when he was on earth.
I believe that in the resurrection, our resurrected bodies will be like Jesus' as well.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

August 14, 2011 at 2:27 pm#255893

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 13 2011,09:13)

MIke…………I am going to slow this down a little……….Let focus on the Prophesy of Jesse…….Now who was the root of Jesse?, you seem to imply Jesse was Jesus' root, bit scripture shows it the other way around Jesus was the root of Jesse.

I agree Gene. Jesus is the Root of Jesse.

Now if Jesse is the “trunk”, we know that the Branch comes AFTER the trunk, as Jesus did – ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, (as it is many times clarified for us in scripture).

But what comes BEFORE a trunk, Gene? Doesn't the Root come BEFORE the trunk?

So we know how Jesus is the Branch of Jesse – he came AFTER Jesse according to the flesh. So how then would Jesus be the ROOT of Jesse if he didn't come BEFORE Jesse?

For Jesus to be both the Root AND the Branch of Jesse, he had to have come both BEFORE Jesse AND AFTER Jesse.

I am awaiting your response to both of my “Do you agree?” questions from the last post.

peace,
mike

August 14, 2011 at 2:37 pm#255894

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 13 2011,20:09)

Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 13 2011,23:20)

Paladin! You make it sound like that the cross is the object of our salvation, which it is not…..It is Jesus blood, the ransom of His life…..

Peace and Love Irene

Hi Irene,

God bless
Ed J

Actually Ed, Irene makes a good point. Too many people imagine that the stake on which Jesus was crucified is an image to be worshipped. It is not. The “cross” is nothing but a piece of wood, and holds no power of salvation for anyone.

If Jesus was killed by an arrow through the heart, would people then wear gold chains with arrows on them around their necks and kiss them?

The whole idea that the piece of wood on which Jesus was brutally murdered is some kind of talisman is ridiculous and reeks of paganism.

That's why I asked Paladin the question I did. He seems to be setting on high the geographical location of Jesus' death – as if the PLACE he died is somehow important to our salvation. Just like many set the instrument of our Savior's death on high – as if a piece of wood can somehow save us.

My two cents,
mike

August 14, 2011 at 2:49 pm#255895

Participant

ED j……….Jesus was Exactly like us, until he recieved the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD at the JORDAN , he had to learn as we do and grow in Statue and Knowledge of GOD the same as we do. When he became different then Most human beings was when he recieved the Holly Spirit at the Jordan River , but that can and does Happen to other Human beings also, as scripture testifies to. Did not Jesus say that those who believe on him would do “greater work then he did”, When we, as He recieve the Spirit of GOD into us we are at one with GOD the FATHER, just as HE is and there is not difference between Jesus and US. This driving force of Separation of identity with Jesus works to destory true faith because it divides and separates Jesus identity with the human race and cause people to lose FAITH (IN) the power of GOD as a result. It is subtle ED J but has effected all Christendom to this very day. GOD did not take a person out side of the Human race to accomplish his Plan for the human Race but took a ordinary person born Just as we are and developed him and Perfected Him and set him as our exact and perfect example in “EVERY” way do not separate Jesus from yourself ED J he is one of US humans brother. ..IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene

August 14, 2011 at 3:05 pm#255898

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2011,01:27)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 13 2011,09:13)

I agree Gene. Jesus is the Root of Jesse.

Now if Jesse is the “trunk”, we know that the Branch comes AFTER the trunk, as Jesus did – ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, (as it is many times clarified for us in scripture).

But what comes BEFORE a trunk, Gene? Doesn't the Root come BEFORE the trunk?

So we know how Jesus is the Branch of Jesse – he came AFTER Jesse according to the flesh. So how then would Jesus be the ROOT of Jesse if he didn't come BEFORE Jesse?

For Jesus to be both the Root AND the Branch of Jesse, he had to have come both BEFORE Jesse AND AFTER Jesse.

I am awaiting your response to both of my “Do you agree?” questions from the last post.

peace,
mike

Mike………… The trunk also like the branches came out of the root and the root was JESSE, Jesus is called the branch from the root of Jesse now how you turn that around is amazing to me. Go back and reread those scripture again. Cant you see how your “MYSTERY RELIGIOUS” View points cause you to created this elusive theology , there is no “Mystery” here, Jesus descended from the ROOT of JESSE, Jesse did (NOT) descend from the ROOT of JESUS. See this is the problem here you agree but you don't agree, more confusion from you.

August 14, 2011 at 3:33 pm#255901

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 15 2011,01:49)

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene

Hi Gene,

Perhaps you have misunderstood what I said;
I have enjoined with Jesus in his oneness with YHVH.
This is how we become sinless, as Jesus was his entire life!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

August 14, 2011 at 4:39 pm#255905

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2011,09:05)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2011,01:27)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 13 2011,09:13)

I agree Gene. Jesus is the Root of Jesse.

Now if Jesse is the “trunk”, we know that the Branch comes AFTER the trunk, as Jesus did – ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, (as it is many times clarified for us in scripture).

But what comes BEFORE a trunk, Gene? Doesn't the Root come BEFORE the trunk?

So we know how Jesus is the Branch of Jesse – he came AFTER Jesse according to the flesh. So how then would Jesus be the ROOT of Jesse if he didn't come BEFORE Jesse?

For Jesus to be both the Root AND the Branch of Jesse, he had to have come both BEFORE Jesse AND AFTER Jesse.

I am awaiting your response to both of my “Do you agree?” questions from the last post.

peace,
mike

Hi Gene,

I think it is YOU who needs to re-read the scriptures:

Isaiah 11:10
In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.

Romans 15:12
And again, Isaiah says, “The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him.”

Revelation 5:5
Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

You say the root WAS Jesse. But that's not what these above scriptures say. You say that Jesus came FROM the roots of Jesse. But that's not what these scriptures say.

These scriptures identify Jesus, not as “coming FROM the Root of Jesse”, but as BEING the Root of Jesse.

Do you agree?

This following scripture should solve the whole dilemma:
Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

This explains that Jesus is BOTH the Root (came BEFORE)………AND the Offspring (came AFTER) of David. Notice that the words DON'T say “I COME FROM the Root of David”. Rather, they say “I AM the Root of David”.

Gene, how is it possible for Jesus to be both BEFORE AND AFTER David?

mike

August 15, 2011 at 4:05 pm#256031

Participant

Mike……………Your problem is you are not applying the meaning of ROOT Properly, Root of a Person simply means the person was a descendant or offspring of that person, Jesus was Both from the root of Jesse as well as King David. But notice no where does it say Jesse or David was from His ROOT now does it. This is what ” Mystery Religion” does it takes simple understanding and makes it complicated to confuse people. Everyone knows the Root (OF) means the person came from that person, the word OF means FROM>

You asked how is it possible for Jesus to be both before and after David, here is you answer, Jesus was in the Plan and Will of GOD from the foundations of the earth, way before David or Jesse existed or for that matter Abraham existed, but he did not come into (BEING) until he was born from the roots of Jesse and David also. Why do you not say the same thing about Cyrus He was prophesied 200 yrs before his berth and was call a servant of the living GOD and given the Glory to rule over all the known earth and serve GOD as a Servant of HIS. Mike produce a Scripture that says anything about Jesus “preexistent Life” what was his name and what did he do, and why did Jesus not address this issue with his disciples and why did not his disciples address it later seeing Jesus' preexistence would have been such a big issue to them as well as to us. Only Trinitarians and Preexistences cause this “separation” Jesus and his disciples never did that is ever, for sure. IMO

peace and love……………………………gene

August 16, 2011 at 2:06 am#256097

Pastry

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 14 2011,20:05)

Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 13 2011,23:20)

Paladin! You make it sound like that the cross is the object of our salvation, which it is not…..It is Jesus blood, the ransom of His life…..

Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

And by Faith in Jesus we are saved

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Peace and Love Irene

The object of our salvation? That would be our soul.

The means of our salvation? That would be the blood of Christ.

The cross upon which Jesus died? That would be the center of our focus.

Paladin! IMO you are focusing in the wrong direction. The Cross is the object and not the direction…We are under Christs blood which is the ransom…. He pored out His blood…
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, WHICH IS SHED FOR YOU…..

Peace Irene

August 16, 2011 at 3:30 am#256116

Blocked

Hi Gene,

This is what you said in your previous post:

Quote

Mike………… The trunk also like the branches came out of the root and the root was JESSE

But now you are saying:

Quote

Mike……………Your problem is you are not applying the meaning of ROOT Properly, Root of a Person simply means the person was a descendant or offspring of that person

Can you notice how your whole argument has now reversed after I posted those scriptures?

Let's continue to keep this simple.

Gene, is Jesus the Root of Jesse?

Scripture says “YES”. What do YOU say?

peace,
mike

August 16, 2011 at 4:20 am#256123

terraricca

Participant

gene

Quote

ED j……….Jesus was Exactly like us, until he received the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD at the JORDAN , he had to learn as we do and grow in Statue and Knowledge of GOD the same as we do. When he became different then Most human beings was when

you never told us that you where born from the holy spirit and by the angel Gabriel,

now if Christ was born from the holy spirit power from God the would you not agreed that he received the holy spirit from birth ?

but then you will ask what did Christ received when he got to John to be baptized ?

did not John the Baptist saw the holy spirit descent on Christ ? yes he did

do you think that he may have received twice,i mean the holy spirit ?

Pierre

August 16, 2011 at 2:26 pm#256150