Do men ever go to heaven?

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2012,12:48)

Quote (942767 @ May 20 2012,15:57) Hi Mike: I may be wrong in my statement above relative to the firstfruits being all who were saved during Jesus ministry because of the following scripture: Quote 1Cr 15:20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. And so, he is the “firstfruits of them who slept” and then there will be those who will be his at his coming for the church. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, The scripture you posted teaches that Jesus was the very first fruit of the “firstfruits”.  But read verse 23: 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 1.  First Christ, who we know was literally raised from the dead. 2.  Then, “the (rest of the) firstfruits”. 3.  Then, when he comes, the rest of those who belong to him. My concern is about line #2.  It seems the teaching is that these “firstfruits” were to be made alive AFTER Jesus was made alive, but BEFORE Jesus comes again.  And that would fit in with the teaching of some not tasting death before Jesus comes in his glory, and also with the souls under the altar, who seem to be very much alive. Thanks for your help and consideration on this subject.

No, Mike:

I don't see any difference between verse 20 and 23 Jesus is the only one who has risen from the dead, and I don't see any scripture which indicates that any will be raised from the dead and ascend to heaven until he comes for the church. There were some who came out of the graves after his resurrection, but the scriptures do not tell us any more than that about them.

I'll have to study what he meant by stating that there were those standing there who would not taste of death.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Hi Mike:

Is Jesus speaking of the “tansfiguration” by the statement “of some standing there who would not taste death till they see the kingdom of God coming with power?

The transfiguration happened six days after he made that statement.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[kerwin]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2012,02:33)

Hi KW, God was in His heaven before genesis. I agree

Nick;

The sky is part of the world. If someone is not found in the world then they are not found in the sky either.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2012,07:41)

Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2012,13:04) There may well me those that were caught up into heaven; as were Elijah and Enoch. This is how I understand it, Kerwin. I believe that the firstfruits ARE those who would not taste death before Jesus came again, who ARE those souls under the altar who were put to death because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. But thanks for your input.

Mike'

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Quote

which shall not taste of death: that is, shall not die; a phrase frequently used by the Jewish doctors: they say (y), “All the children of the world, , “taste the taste of death”.'

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

Quote

Taste of death – That is, die. Before they die they shall see this.

check this out.

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
What was it that showed the kingdom in power on the mountain?

[mikeboll64]

Matthew 16:28
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Marty, in what way did the Son of Man “come in his kingdom” at the transfiguration?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ May 20 2012,20:19)

I don't see any difference between verse 20 and 23 Jesus is the only one who has risen from the dead……………….

I think I now see the problem.

I am reading 1 Cor 15:23 as THREE groups, while I believe you are reading it as only TWO groups. I'm reading:

Each in their own turn:

1. First Christ.

2. Then, the “firstfruits” of the resurrection that are rasied AFTER Christ, but BEFORE everyone else.

3. Then, WHEN HE COMES, [the REST OF] those who belong to him.

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2012,19:06)

Quote (942767 @ May 20 2012,20:19) I don't see any difference between verse 20 and 23 Jesus is the only one who has risen from the dead………………. I think I now see the problem. I am reading 1 Cor 15:23 as THREE groups, while I believe you are reading it as only TWO groups.  I'm reading: Each in their own turn: 1.  First Christ. 2.  Then, the “firstfruits” of the resurrection that are rasied AFTER Christ, but BEFORE everyone else. 3.  Then, WHEN HE COMES, [the REST OF] those who belong to him.

Mike

you are correct ,their are three groups and all are part of the first resurrection not the second one

[mikeboll64]

Thanks Pierre.

It seems to match Jesus saying that some wouldn't taste death before he came again………..and the souls under the altar in Revelation who were men who died, but are already alive again in God's presence.

But I can see how they're interpreting it as:

1. First Christ, who IS “the firstfruits”.

2. Then, WHEN HE RETURNS, those who belong to him.

[kerwin]

To all;

Consider these Scriptures.

John 17:23
King James Version (KJV)

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

and

Matthew 13:31-32
King James Version (KJV)

31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2012,12:22)

Thanks Pierre. It seems to match Jesus saying that some wouldn't taste death before he came again………..and the souls under the altar in Revelation who were men who died, but are already alive again in God's presence. But I can see how they're interpreting it as: 1.  First Christ, who IS “the firstfruits”. 2.  Then, WHEN HE RETURNS, those who belong to him.

Mike……….You have completely twisted up what Jesus said , He said some standing here would not taste death “till” or until they see the son of man coming with power and glory. He did not say they would be resurected before he came that is you false rendition and forcing of the text to meet you own teachings. They saw him on the mount of transfiguration do that, and after that they all died , They were not raised and given eternal life then and still await a resurrection from the Dead. The first resurrection of the Dead has not happened to any one except Jesus ONLY>

peace and love……………………………………….gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 23 2012,10:34)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2012,12:22) Thanks Pierre. It seems to match Jesus saying that some wouldn't taste death before he came again………..and the souls under the altar in Revelation who were men who died, but are already alive again in God's presence. But I can see how they're interpreting it as: 1.  First Christ, who IS “the firstfruits”. 2.  Then, WHEN HE RETURNS, those who belong to him. Mike……….You have completely twisted up what Jesus said , He said some standing here would not taste death “till” or until they see the son of man coming with power and glory. He did not say they would be resurected before he came that is you false rendition and forcing of the text to meet you own teachings.   They saw him on the mount of transfiguration do that,  and after that they all died , They were not raised and given eternal life then and still await a resurrection from the Dead.  The first resurrection of the Dead has not happened to any one except Jesus ONLY> peace and love……………………………………….gene

G

first resurrection does not mean ALL AT ONES ;

[kerwin]

To all;

considering the Scriptures I quoted previously; did Jesus come in his kingdom on Pentecost?

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2012,17:58)

To all; considering the Scriptures I quoted previously; did Jesus come in his kingdom on Pentecost?

wrong topic

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2012,20:53)

Hi 94, What was it that showed the kingdom in power on the mountain?

Hi Nick:

I asked the question, if that is what he was talking about? I really don't know at that this point, do you?

He is either referring to the “first death”, or physical death or the “second death” where those who are not saved will be cast into the lake of fire.

It does not seem to make sense that some standing there would not die physically until they see him coming in the clouds with power and great glory. It has been 2000 years and he has not yet come. I don't know any 2000 year old men still living, do you?

And so, I really don't know to what he is referring at this point. I am praying for understanding.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[kerwin]

Quote (942767 @ May 24 2012,03:08)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2012,20:53) Hi 94, What was it that showed the kingdom in power on the mountain? Hi Nick: I asked the question, if that is what he was talking about?  I really don't know at that this point, do you? He is either referring to the “first death”, or physical death or the “second death” where those who are not saved will be cast into the lake of fire. It does not seem to make sense that some standing there would not die physically until they see him coming in the clouds with power and great glory.  It has been 2000 years and he has not yet come.  I don't know any 2000 year old men still living, do you? And so, I really don't know to what he is referring at this point.  I am praying for understanding. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty;

Have you considered that he might be speaking of Pentecost; when he comes to reign with power through the Spirit?

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ May 23 2012,06:00)

Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2012,17:58) To all; considering the Scriptures I quoted previously; did Jesus come in his kingdom on Pentecost? wrong topic

T;

This is the passage that started the conversation in this thread.

Matthew 16:28

I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ May 24 2012,16:56)

Quote (terraricca @ May 23 2012,06:00) Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2012,17:58) To all; considering the Scriptures I quoted previously; did Jesus come in his kingdom on Pentecost? wrong topic T; This is the passage that started the conversation in this thread. Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

K

well can you read that scripture

Matthew 16:28

I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death

BEFORE they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

this is Steven, and other apostles and true Christian present with him on that day that he said that;

were do you think is Christ kingdom

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ May 24 2012,05:02)

Quote (kerwin @ May 24 2012,16:56) Quote (terraricca @ May 23 2012,06:00) Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2012,17:58) To all; considering the Scriptures I quoted previously; did Jesus come in his kingdom on Pentecost? wrong topic T; This is the passage that started the conversation in this thread. Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” K well can you read that scripture Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death BEFORE they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” this is Steven, and other apostles and true Christian present with him on that day that he said that; were do you think is Christ kingdom

T;

Jesus rules through the Spirit.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2012,16:56)

Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2012,17:58) To all; did Jesus come in his kingdom on Pentecost?

Hi Kerwin,

Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ.

According to Revelation 1:1, the vision was of things that “must soon take place”. And John had this revelation long after Pentecost, so I can't see how Jesus came in his kingdom then.

[Author]

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