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I've never actually come across anyone who didn't believe that some go to heaven until I talked to Nick. I usually encounter the exact opposite: Everyone goes to heaven–the good, the not so good, etc, and no one will reside on the earth.
I'm wondering what everyone thinks of this subject.
I'm wondering what scriptures there are that definitely say some go to heaven.
I'm wondering what scritpures there are that say no one ever goes to heaven.Any comments?
Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2005,22:58) I've never actually come across anyone who didn't believe that some go to heaven until I talked to Nick. I usually encounter the exact opposite: Everyone goes to heaven–the good, the not so good, etc, and no one will reside on the earth. I'm wondering what everyone thinks of this subject.
I'm wondering what scriptures there are that definitely say some go to heaven.
I'm wondering what scritpures there are that say no one ever goes to heaven.Any comments?
Now David you know that the 144 thousand are spiritual kings and priest. And everyone of the 2nd resurrection inherits the earth. Don't you?To again repeat my question: What do others think. Nick thinks no one ever goes to heaven. I'm just wondering if anyone else out there holds to this.
Hi david,
I have an open mind on this matter.If you go to the end of the bible in Rev 21.fthen you see man living on the renewed earth. The millenial kingdom after the first resurrection is on the earth. The new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God to earth.
The earth is the inheritance of men.-“The meek shall inherit the earth”
Our souls sleep in the earth till the resurrection. Our spirit returns to God at death, and those who are his are already seated in heaven with Jesus [Coll 3.1f] but can we be aware of that?
Before that there is “my Father's house” in Jn 12 with it's many rooms but it is not specified where this is. Does it seem likely that men would go to heaven and then return to earth-sounds like a bit of a come down?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 28 2005,16:37) Hi david,
I have an open mind on this matter.If you go to the end of the bible in Rev 21.fthen you see man living on the renewed earth. The millenial kingdom after the first resurrection is on the earth. The new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God to earth.
The earth is the inheritance of men.-“The meek shall inherit the earth”
Our souls sleep in the earth till the resurrection. Our spirit returns to God at death, and those who are his are already seated in heaven with Jesus [Coll 3.1f] but can we be aware of that?
Before that there is “my Father's house” in Jn 12 with it's many rooms but it is not specified where this is. Does it seem likely that men would go to heaven and then return to earth-sounds like a bit of a come down?
Nick,
What's your take on the 144 thousand?Hi kenrch,
They are mentioned twice in Revelation, 7 and 14
They are the “remnant of Israel” coming from the Jewish tribes as in Rev7. God always saves a remnant but so few survive judgement and are bondservants . They are the first fruits, those perfect Jews who inherit the kingdom under OT Law, but as Rev 14 shows they also are messianic Jews being with the Lamb and with his name and the name of the Father on their foreheads.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 28 2005,16:55) Hi kenrch,
They are mentioned twice in Revelation, 7 and 14
They are the “remnant of Israel” coming from the Jewish tribes as in Rev7. God always saves a remnant but so few survive judgement and are bondservants . They are the first fruits, those perfect Jews who inherit the kingdom under OT Law, but as Rev 14 shows they also are messianic Jews being with the Lamb and with his name and the name of the Father on their foreheads.
Hi Nick,
Do you think that they are the only spirit beings? The only ones that might be changed in a twinkle of an eye?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 28 2005,17:47) Hi kenrch,
No. They are only those saved from the Jewish people in my opinion.
Nick,Aren't all the 144k Jews?
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 28 2005,19:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 28 2005,17:47) Hi kenrch,
No. They are only those saved from the Jewish people in my opinion.
Nick,Aren't all the 144k Jews?
Nick,The people of the saints will inherit the earth (Dan 7:27).
Their are two resurrections one of the saints (1st resurrection) and one of the people of the saints (2nd resurrection).
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 28 2005,01:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 28 2005,17:47) Hi kenrch,
No. They are only those saved from the Jewish people in my opinion.
Nick,Aren't all the 144k Jews?
Yes.Hi kenrch,
Interesting.
Dan 7.25f Speaking of the antichrist;
“…and they will be given into his hand for a time, times and half a time. But the court will sit in judgement, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. Then the Sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One, His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey him”The time, times and half a time refers to three and a half years or half the seven year tribulation period and spoken in Rebelation 11-12 as 3 and a half days, 1260 days etc. This is leading up to the return of Christ and the 1000 yr reign [Rev 20, Heb 4]with the sons of the kingdom also ruling and judging the nations with Christ as the earth is restored. Then comes the second resurrection and the judgement[Rev 20] and the eternal kingdom being restored by Christ to God.[1Cor 15.30f]
Hi Nick,
Nick, you state that in your opinion, the 144,000 are “only those saved from the Jewish people,” (meaning natural Jews and not spiritual ones.)But is this possible? Given the tribes listed, does that make sense?
Rev. 7:4-8: “I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: . . . Judah . . . Reuben . . . Gad . . . Asher . . . Naphtali . . . Manasseh . . . Simeon . . . Levi . . . Issachar . . . Zebulun . . . Joseph . . . Benjamin.” (These cannot be the tribes of natural Israel because there never was a tribe of Joseph, the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the list here, and the Levites were set aside for service in connection with the temple but were not reckoned as one of the 12 tribes. See Numbers 1:4-16.)
Scriptures to consider that may help:
Rom. 2:28, 29: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code.”
Gal. 3:26-29: “You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. . . . There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.”
Rom. 9:6, 16: “Not all who spring from Israel are really ‘Israel.’ . . . It depends, not upon the one wishing nor upon the one running, but upon God, who has mercy.”
The 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 must refer to this spiritual Israel for several valid reasons.
–The listing does not match that of natural Israel at Numbers chapter 1. –Also Jerusalem’s temple and priesthood and all the tribal records of natural Israel were permanently destroyed, lost forever, long before John had his vision in 96 C.E.
–But more important, John received his vision upon a background of the aforementioned developments from and after Pentecost 33 C.E. In the light of such events, John’s vision of those standing on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb (whom natural Israel had rejected) revealed the number of this spiritual Israel of God to be 144,000 “bought from among mankind.”—Re 7:4; 14:1, 4.Do the 144,000 reside in heaven?
Well, we are told at Rev 14:1-3 that they are “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion.
Heb. 12:22: “You have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels.”
(Thus it is not to earthly Jerusalem but to “heavenly Jerusalem” that true Christians look for fulfillment of the promises of God.)Hi david,
I agree the tribes do not exactly match up but cannot God do such things? Was not one of the tribes taken from one family and given to another at some stage?It certainly says thet are from the 12 tribes and why should we doubt this? They are first fruits and that has special spiriual meaning too. They remain separate from the rest of the saved right through till their role in the temple in Rev 22.3f
Heavenly Jerusalem is so called because it has come down from heaven according to Rev 21 so is on earth where God dwells with His people again [Rev 21.3]
Approaching God in prayer is likened to approaching Mt Zion in Heb 12.18f but Mount Zion is also a real place on earth too so we should not assume it is spiritualised here.Interestingly, while it is said that people would be “sealed out of every tribe,” the tribes of Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned. So what do you make of this?
The view that here Christians of Jewish stock are being distinguished from Gentile Christians runs counter to the apostle Paul’s inspired statement that fleshly distinctions are of no consideration in the Christian congregation, its members being all one in union with Christ Jesus. (Ro 10:12; Ga 3:28)
Jehovah, having ‘fully reconciled both peoples [Jews and non-Jews] to himself in one body’ through Christ, could hardly be expected to make a division between the two groups now by separating fleshly Jews from Gentiles in the vision given to John. (Eph 2:11-21; Ac 15:7-9)
This is particularly evident when the divine principle stated by Paul is taken into account: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit.” (Ro 2:28, 29)
Why, too, would there be no mention of any ‘sealing’ of the Gentile Christians in this divine vision?
And why would not the Gentile Christians be able to master the new song sung by the 144,000? (Re 14:3)
It thus seems clear that the 144,000 sealed ones are of spiritual Israel, not fleshly Israel—hence include both Jewish and Gentile Christians.—Ga 6:16.
The Christian congregation is “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation.” (1 Peter 2:9) Replacing natural Israel as God’s nation, it becomes a new Israel that is “really ‘Israel.’” (Romans 9:6-8; Matthew 21:43)
ROMANS 9:6-8
“However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed.”MATTHEW 21:43
“This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits.”Since natural Israel was replaced with a spiritual Israel, does it not make sense that Spiritual Israel (who has God's favor) would be the ones making up that kingdom?
For this reason, it was quite proper for James to address his pastoral letter “to the twelve tribes that are scattered about,” that is, to the worldwide congregation of anointed Christians that in time would number 144,000. —James 1:1.
Hi Nick. Just one more thought. New Jerusalem is not the fleshly nation of Israel founded on the 12 sons of Jacob. It is the spiritual Israel, founded on “the apostles and prophets.”—Ephesians 2:20.
EPHESIANS 2:20
“and YOU have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone.”Quote (david @ Nov. 29 2005,15:24) The Christian congregation is “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation.” (1 Peter 2:9) Replacing natural Israel as God’s nation, it becomes a new Israel that is “really ‘Israel.’” (Romans 9:6-8; Matthew 21:43) ROMANS 9:6-8
“However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed.”MATTHEW 21:43
“This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits.”Since natural Israel was replaced with a spiritual Israel, does it not make sense that Spiritual Israel (who has God's favor) would be the ones making up that kingdom?
David,Be careful, Rom. chapter 11.
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